Cutwater - Trim Tabs too small

I recently purchased the Cutwater 28. Generally speaking, it’s a very nice boat with lots of great features. There is one problem, however, that needs to be addressed by Cutwater: the trim tabs are too small. The symptoms of this issue are evident under the following conditions:
1) The boat has a fairly heavy list to port, due to the single prop (centrifugal force). This requires, therefore, that the port trim be set down to compensate; trim tabbing varies according to speed and other factors, but sometimes trim on port needs to be ½ down just to address this issue.
2) When 4 or more people are on the boat, the boat has a “bow up” attitude (particularly if most people are in the cockpit). While somewhat expected for this boat size and design, it requires FULL trim in an attempt to get to plane more quickly and/or to help correct the attitude. Even at full trim, it takes more time than usual to get the boat at plane.
3) Another symptom is that the Cutwater 28 requires very “active trim tabbing”. This issue is written about by Peter Swanson who wrote about his Cutwater sea trial. In that article he writes about his struggle to steer the boat, resulting in “bow steering” or digging quickly in one direction (usually port for me due to #1 above). Bow steering not a comfortable experience and represents a safety issue. So “active trimming” is required throughout the day particularly in choppy waters/winds.

While I am not a boat designer, I strongly believe these issues could be minimized if Cutwater installed Trim Tabs with a larger span. The installed “Bennett Trim Tabs” have a 12” span. My research on many web sites, including Bennett’s, indicate trim span should be 1” per foot (or 28” in the case of Cutwater). I called Bennett and they confirmed their guidelines (posted on their web site) which indicates at least 28” for this type of boat. After contacting the dealer and Cutwater directly, no one is willing to respond to this question: why did Cutwater install trims that are significantly smaller than the industry guidelines (1” per foot)? The only Answer I received from a customer service rep was: “Bennett bought off on the design…" and that their charts are "just guidelines”. But Cutwater is not even close to the guidelines!
The bottom line is this: Cutwater need to address this problem by simply putting larger span trims on the boat! I still await a proper response, while I actively trim this boat to my next destination.

agree the C28 seems undertabbed. suspect they kept them small to reduce drag. if you think the C28 runs bow up try a C26!

could be the thin hulls we run cant handle the torque of large tabs. keep in mind the inch per foot guideline has practical limits when it comes to transom real estate.

Thank you for posting this on the tugnuts. We have spoken to the dealer that sold the vessel to you and it appears that the boat had the trim tab system changed to automatic leveling system. Cutwater Boats or Ranger Tugs have never tried these on our boats so we have asked Winters Sailing Center to take a ride on the boat with you to see how it is behaving.

I have run the Cutwaters in many different sea conditions and never experienced any issues. The trim tabs on the Cutwater 28 are the correct size. Bennett buys off on all installations of their tabs and the guidelines listed on their web site are “general” guidelines and not applied to our boats. During the early days of testing the product, we tried larger tabs. The vessel is designed to run like a semi displacement boat with the bow up. If you try and run it like a planning vessel, it will not perform as intended.

Ronnie Gonzales
Cutwater/ Ranger Customer Service
ronniegonzales@cutwaterboats.com
425-220-3932

The automatic leveling trimtabs are the worst gadget I can think of for a boat, at least the ones installed on a boat I test drove. It operated off of either a bubble level or gyro mounted mid-ship along the centerline and everytime I tried to make a turn the trimtabs would try to counter my effort. Also everytime someone moved on the boat the trim tabs would react and cause a lurching motion, very unsafe in my personal opinion

Mr. Gonzales,

Again, you are trying to deflect the question and the issue onto someone or something else. This posting is about the size of the trim tabs, and has nothing to do with the Automatic Trim Tabs device made by Bennett (ATC). The ATC is (and was) disabled for all tests. In fact, the ATC was put on to try to compensate for the "active trimming" requiring on this boat, but Bennett requires that the trim tabs be sized right for the ATC to work properly. Again, the ATC is disabled and NOT the issue in this post.

In your earlier email to me you attempted to explain the reason why the trims are so small, saying "the stern thruster would not properly if the trims were larger. You went on to say "we have the prop tunnel to deal with..." All I can say is WOW! how many smoke and mirrors can you throw up to deflect this issue... all of these matters have nothing to do with placing properly sized trims on this boat - cut me a break.

Frankly, I don't think this is a customer service issue, but a technical design issue and perhaps someone from the design/manufacturing team can respond to the question. Bottom line is this: I believe 24" span trim tabs would do wonders to correct the issues I described above.

Shieldsfx,

From what I read It sounds like Mr. Gonzalze is trying to help you with this issue, not deflect blame. I know it can be frustrating when something that you spent a ton of money on does not meet your expectations. It has been my experience that with heated issues phone calls are more efficient and less confrontational, so perhaps a call will help you out better. Ranger has always met my expectations with resolving issues and I am sure Cutwater has the same culture, so hang in there and I am sure they will take care of it. Many things have been improved over the years because of customer input, so hopefully they will get to the root of your problem and make the necessary changes that may be needed. Keep us informed of progress.

Regards,
Mike Rizzo

Knotflying, thank you for your reply and I agree completely - a phone call is best. In fact, I called and spoke to Mr. Gonzalas and he expressed concern - said he would call me right back. He never called back! I called again and left several messages on voice mail. This process has been going on for 3 months...

I then received his email from the dealer and tried to get his attention in email... He finally he got back with a very short message saying the same sort of stuff he said above (talking about unrelated items) and not answering my question. Basically discarding my question/concern...

On a somewhat related note, my boat was delivered with defective steering hydraulics and the sonar transducer broke off bottom of the boat due to improper epoxy used to affix to painted surface. While these items were fixed (with considerable help from me), it wasn't without delay and frustration. So trust me, I've been patient with Cutwater and have not experienced what you have experienced...

This problem would simply go away if someone from the design team specially addressed the obvious deviation from industry standards relative to trim tab size.

Although I've had other problems with my Bennett trim tabs, they are definitely sized properly for my boat. Larger tab size might be dangerous given their tendency to steer the boat if applied abruptly or more than required for a given condition. I assume that RT uses the same hull for both the RT and the Cutwater, and the same formula for tab size. If so, the result should be the same.

Phil

Phil.
The Hull design on the Cutwater is different than the Ranger Tug. In any event I would say if one is not getting anywhere with the dealer a call to Andrew should help.

Hmmm...I have to stick up for Cutwater and add that I too have never experienced the problems you describe. In fact I hardly ever even touch my trim except to compensate when someone walks around while the boat is on plane...and then it's just a touch to relevel side to side.

My boat rides fairly level ( a little rise is natural at plane). If I have a lot of people in the cockpit the boat does ride bow up. I have them move to rebalance. I've never owned a boat that didn't have this issue. ( this is boat 5 for us) I have some running shots of our boat running comfortably on plane and can send them to you to see if you're boat is running higher than it should.

It took me awhile to find the trim sweet spot when I bought the boat but I've hardly touched them in a year. The boat rides great. A tap here and there once in a while is all I ever do to maintain proper running. I hope your issues are easy to fix or a matter of experimentation.

FYI we've had the boat for two years. So that sweet spot did take a little time to perfect !

Dave

I have to agree that the tabs are not as effective as I would like. But my new C28 has a generator, and (I am told) that puts additional weight on the port side. The boat leans just a bit to port when stationary, but under power this is increased and must be countered with port trim to level. Nothing particularly bothersome but I need to use more of the available port trim than I would like just to keep level side-to-side.

As an update of my original posting on "trim tabs too small", I have had my Cutwater 28' for two years now with nearly 200 hours logged on NJ ocean and back bays. I have fully confirmed my original posting - that the boat requires active trim tabbing, and I remain convinced the design should have considered larger tabs for this boat (as recommended for boats of this size from Bennett, the manufacturer). The boat tends to list port, due to 1) The centrifugal force of the single prop and 2) the additional weight of the generator (and other appliances portside). Starboard bow down is required on all runs, and further testing of people moving from side-to-side in the cockpit results in constant attention on trim tabs. I have installed Bennetts' auto trim tab equipment, but it is not responsive enough, i.e., trim adjustment is too slow to balance quick movements in the cockpit, probably due to the small size of the trim tabs. I plan to install larger trim tabs to prove these points, since Cutwater has denied or ignored my concerns. It's pretty simple, larger trims are required. Otherwise, boat is great... (additional notes: one of my trim tabs broke in the first season, but Bennett replaced w/o question; they were very easy to deal with, and remember, trim tabbing is more important at higher speeds; there are little to no issues at slower speeds).

Just a dumb question; when you said the tabs should have a length of 1inch per foot of boat, do you mean both tabs together should equal length of boat or each tab? If it is each tab that sounds like a lot of tab to me.

Hello and thank you for bringing this back to our attention. We have also tried larger tabs on our product but didn't like the way the vessel handled. We are afraid that with larger tabs, our customers will tend to want to run the bow really low like a planning boat (this is a semi displacement hull). By installing larger tabs, we also noted the boat to be even more sensitive to side to side movement when trimming.

We look forward to hearing about how this works out for you.

Best regards,

Andrew Custis

Andrew Custis":377jx4hv said:

We are afraid that with larger tabs, our customers will tend to want to run the bow really low like a planning boat (this is a semi displacement hull).

Best regards,

Andrew Custis

Click to expand...

Still trying to get this boat lingo down. Sounds to me you are saying a semi displacement hull runs with a higher bow than a planning boat. I thought just the reverse??? :?

Jake

Yes, higher bow attitude with semi- displacement.

knotflying":aov5yozs said:

Yes, higher bow attitude with semi- displacement.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I'm thinking "semi-displacement" is the key word here.

Jake

We have a C30 and find the supplied tabs work well. It may be that our 10' beam makes a difference. I have another tab question for Andrew and others. We've used our 5 month old boat a lot this spring and summer - 100 hours on the engine so far and 2 extended trips totalling 3 1/2 weeks. I've fooled around with the tabs while cruising and, with an eye on the fuel usage per nautical mile, concluded that running with the tabs at the maximum "Bow Down" position provides the greatest fuel efficiency. Is this your experience as well? We've had a few experiences heading into substantial winds (a totally unexpected and un-forecast 30 knots on 1 occasion) and I wonder if the boat would have preferred easing back on the tabs to allow the boat to assume a more bow up position while plowing through oncoming waves?

I’ve had my C28 since June and put on about 100 hours. I added trim tab extensions at week 2 and what a considerable difference! Perhaps especially for me as I have a 25 Yamaha kicker adding weight. There are two types of tab shape that were suggested by our local Cutwater dealer. I would highly recommend this to anyone with a 28, especially if you have some stern weight. You can feel and hear a difference, and see it on the nautical miles per gallon gauge.

Cowichan":12pjnjio said:

I’ve had my C28 since June and put on about 100 hours. I added trim tab extensions at week 2 and what a considerable difference! Perhaps especially for me as I have a 25 Yamaha kicker adding weight. There are two types of tab shape that were suggested by our local Cutwater dealer. I would highly recommend this to anyone with a 28, especially if you have some stern weight. You can feel and hear a difference, and see it on the nautical miles per gallon gauge.

Click to expand...

I'm interested in what type of trim tab extensions you installed

I have posted in an other topic of adding Drop Fins to help increase trim. We had a problem getting the bow to come down with added weight at the stern. A few issues that I found were. The installation of the trim tabs is not installed at the recommended (Bennett) elevation on the transom. The trim tab leading edge is recommended by Bennett to be installed 1/4" above the bottom, the trailing edge of the trim tab 5/8"with the cylinder fully retracted. The installation on my C26 is leading edge 5/8" and the trailing edge 7/8". This doesn't seem like much but it is reducing Bennetts cylinders ( active ) travel amount by 3/8" reducing the trim by 20%. Second issue is the Tabs are to small. I spoke with a Bennett representative about this issue. The response he gave me is "they are installing the wrong tab based on our specifications, that boat should have 18x12 not 12x12. The representative then recommended trying drop fins.( He told me that they were originally made for Bayliner years ago, They were for Dave Livingston's Bayliner Motor Yacht Design in the 80's. I spoke with Ralph at Cutwater and he agreed this would help. I installed the drop fins supplied by Bennett and it made a incredible difference. The only issue is the trim tabs are not mounted on the transom parallel to the center line of the boat. The transom is angled at this location. So while working good they created a small amount of drag. The benefits out weighed the slight drag. As you stated the GPH at specific speeds increased, visibility increased with the bow down, the ability to have additional trim range for different sea conditions was a benefit. The biggest benefit we saw was when we added a 8'10' Aluminum RIB on the swim platform along with a 8hp outboard and had 3 people sitting in the cockpit I can still bring the bow down with little noticed performance change. My solution to the drop fin angled installation was to make custom drop fins. I made a pair last winter and used them this summer, It is a completely different handling boat. I had four adults sitting in the cockpit, I was at the helm, Boating on Lake Michigan, 1' waves ,engine compartment was still cool, I was able to reach 4050rpm and 20.5mph WOT. I could never do that without drop fins. I know a few other Cutwaters that installed the drop fins and experienced better trim angle and slightly better performance.
I am posting pictures of the drop fins that I custom made.

Original Bennett drop fin installed

Custom made drop fins added 2" to width and designed to run parallel to the boats center line.