Replacing R25's manual head with an electrical head

baz

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Was at the Seattle boat show yesterday attending the Ranger Tug''s VIP event. There I managed to corner Andrew to discuss how and when Ranger would provide a conversion kit for replacing the R25's manual (Thetford brand) head with an electrical one.

Andrew was hopeful about having one soon and said he had been talking with Thetford about this very thing. Andrew indicated that Thetford was at the show and so a little later I ferreted them out on the upper level.

I managed to find the Thetford design engineer and asked about what Andrew had mentioned about the manaul-to-electrical conversion product being available soon. I was told not to expect anything for sure until end of 2011. If I wanted, I could be first inline. 😉 🙁

What I did find out was that when the conversion product does get released it will likely cost around $450.

I went on and asked Thetford what could be done in the meantime. This lead to an interesting conversation and to cut to the chase -- it's possible to make the transition from manual to electrical today using an existing Thetford product. The two issues that the Thetford folks have to deal with are the bolt hole locations for the toilet base and the tube/pipe diameters. Running electrics to the head was not seen as any big issue. Thetford indicated this can be dealt with using their current EasyFit Tecmar toilet product. They went into great detail about this and I admit they made me comfortable it can be done. The cost however would be more than the proposed product at end of 2011 which would be specifically designed for the R25's manual head. They indicated around $700 if using the EasyFit Tecmar toilet today.

Thetford had the EasyFit Tecmar head on display and it was setup to be operational. It worked easily with about 1.7 liters per flush. A simple toggle switch operated the head. Pushed momentarily and the toilet flushes quickly with minimum water. Push and holding allows the bowl to fill and when release will flush the water out very quickly. The design was such that if any object not meant for the head's consumption were to be dropped into the bowl it was very simple to remove it. Such things as plastic bottle tops and small child toys come to mind.

I'm very tempted to engage a local Marine plumbing specialist to get a firmer hold/understanding on installation difficulties and cost. Thetford asked where my R25 was located and when telling them it was in Edmonds, WA the engineer said his boat was also at the same moorage and recommended Bob Dickey who's local to Edmonds and was familiar with the Thetford marine products.

If I find out more I will post back here. In the meantime, if any R25 owner has already replaced their manual head with an electric operated head I'd like to get some feedback and any advice they care to offer. Thanks in advance.

Barry 🙂
 
...update

So I've made decision to move ahead with this project. I now have to decide between fresh water vs. salt water for bowl flushing.

I tend to lean toward fresh water for following reasons

-fresh water does not cause long term erosion of fittings
-fresh water does not cause internal pipe residue build up
-fresh water does not smell even if small amounts remain in the system for extended periods
-easier installation as it can tap into the under sink cold water line
-less expensive (by about $100) as it can make use of existing fresh water pump

The down side for using fresh water

-fresh water tank capacity is only 30 gallons
-excessive use of fresh water will limit cruise distances and exhaust fresh water for other purposes

Other considerations

-a quick fresh water flush uses a little over a pint
-an estimate for two people using head for one day would be 2.5 gallons (comments on this estimate are welcomed)
-if fresh water exhausted head still can be used by filling bowl with salt water

I'm going to use a Thetford Tecmar EasyFit (ECO series) head.


...I'll provide more info later
 
This is why I went with the airhead composting toilet. No holding tank or pumpouts and an additional 30 gallons of potable water. I have not put it into action yet, but after extensive research and talking to folks who have installed it and used it for a few years, they swear by it. Only time will tell if my choice was a good one.
 
I have had nothing but misery with the Thetford toilet and would not install anything that had that manufacturers names on it. The Jabsco toilets are cheaper and miles better. Both elec and manual will require a raised base (teak or plastic will work) of about 2" so that hose connections will work and so that the orientation of the new toilet will let the lid flip up and stay up. I have had some private conversations with other Tug owners who have all thrown out the toilets that came with the boat. I have suffered enough and am switching mine out in March. I am a fisherman who has been on the water a 100 plus days a year for the last 20 yrs and recently took a ex commercial buddy out (who has triple the experiance that I have) and after using the head he exclaimed "Thats not a toilet........ I know what toilets are and thats not one!".
 
I used the Raritan SeaEra Conversion kit on our R25 at a cost of $330 and I will never go back! Installed it last year and it works fantastic. You can buy the same kit now for $391 http://www.hodgesmarine.com/Raritan-Seaera-Conversion-Kit-Remote-Intake-Pump-p/rar160lr912.htm

You can get the full Raritan electric toilet for $449 http://www.hodgesmarine.com/Raritan-Seaera-Toilet-White-W-Household-Bowl-p/rar160hf012.htm. My research shows that Raritan makes some of the best marine toilets on the market. Jabsco is the low end and you will pay for it over time, it has to do with the design of the pump.

I have instructions if anyone wants them. Just private message me.

Here's a freshwater electric for $377 on sale! http://www.hodgesmarine.com/Raritan-Marine-Elegance-12vdc-Hh-Bowl-Fresh-Water-p/rar220hf01202.htm

Doug
 
Hi Barry,
I would suggest you talk to Marine Sanitation next to Fisheries Supply in Seattle about additional options. They supplied a head for our old boat Mimi that utilized chemicals to sanitize waste and allowed it be to pumped anywhere. I talked to someone at the boat show last year and they informed me that they are still available and legal. I never pumped in the lake but I understand I could have. It utilizes a 5 to 6 gallon holding tank for treatment then you can pump. I think with only 30 gallons of water available it would be tough to use it for the toilet.
Bob
 
That would be a Lectrasanor Purasan from Raritan . One makes chlorine from saltwater and one you add chlorine to .
Marc
 
Good call Marc. It was the Lectrasan head we had. It never caused uny problems and we used it for about ten years.
All the best,
Bob
 
It appears that they may not be approved for no discharge areas. Do your research first.
 
I purchased the Thetford Tecmar EasyFit ECO (short) series head for fresh water use. I will be installing it in about 2 weeks from now. Will post back later.
 
I'm with Knotflying. I put in an Airhead composting toilet and no problems so far, but have only used it for a few weeks. Like him I reviewed it over the web and found its been typically used on sailboats for livea-board or long cruising purposes. Its been used for years and years and I have yet to find a complaint about it on the web. Also, nice guy that makes them. Phoned me twice to check on my progress. Great support like we expect...

http://www.airheadtoilet.com/
 
Airhead will cost around $1,050 including shipping (not sure about sales/use tax which will be an addition). The simple operational aspects of the Thetford Tecmar EasyFit ECO series head's electric flush trumps the Airhead for me. Plus it costs less.
 
Yes the cost is a little steep, but I figured the added water supply and not having to worry about pumping out in addition to the simplicity with no parts to replace or fix will eventually outweigh the cost and convenience.
 
knotflying":waeegcn5 said:
Yes the cost is a little steep, but I figured the added water supply and not having to worry about pumping out in addition to the simplicity with no parts to replace or fix will eventually outweigh the cost and convenience.

Hmmmmm...

So where do you and can you dispose of the waste safely and legally?

The thought of decomposing material being in the boat for weeks/months etc would bother me.

How friendly is this Airhead for children?

Does your wife/companion/friends mind having to crank the handle?

How often is thorough cleaning of the toilet required?

Is it completely waterproof from the shower water spray?

It's made of plastic/glass and plastic degrades over time and becomes brittle -- fine cracks can appear and propagate.

There's nasty and unsightly piece of 2" vent flex pipe that has to be used for venting.

Where do you cut the 2 1/4" vent hole ?

The 12v fan will eventually wear out and/or make nasty noises.

The Airhead has rubber seals even though its web site says otherwise.

Airhead has no color choice.

If holding tank fills when on the water how is the tank's contents disposed of? Quote from FAQ "At Sea: When offshore and/or outside of the legal limits of United States, the solids may be taken to the edge of the boat and dumped overboard."

Crank handle requires space to operate and this can cause installation/position issues in the tight space on Ranger Tug R25.

The 12v fan must be run continuously!
 
You have all the same questions I had. I have not yet used mine so I can't comment on some of your questions yet. All of the research I did with people who have had them for as long as 5 years was very favorable. The motor draws like 8 milliamps and makes as much noise as a computer fan. Have you had issues with your computer fan? Color? I never saw a marine head in any color other than white. The crank in tight spaces is with a ratchet. The exhaust hose can be concealed very nicely. Disposal can be in a garbage bag and for two people you are good for at least 4 weeks full time before you have to empty it. If you don't want to dump the compost overboard check the level before leaving. Cleaning the interior in not recommended since you will kill all those great lillte microbes that eat the poop! The smell - there is none and if there was it smells like composting leaves, a lot better than a malfunctioning head. Is it as pretty as a regular head, no, but it looks great when you have to go. It is as functional as a regular toilet so it is as kid friendly as a regular toilet. The way I figure it is, if it does not work out I can always convert. That would be convert to a standard head, not a different religion. I lost more money on the 2008 stock crash then I will on replacing my Airhead if it does not work out, so I'm giving it a shot. And I recouped all my losses from the crash, so the gods are with me so far!
 
Jerry,
Keep us posted on the Airhead. We also have heard good things about it. I like the simplicity of it, the ease of maintenance and the opportunity to do something better with the space used for the holding tank. Yes, you may have to be more "intimate" with the waste, but it cannot be any worse than dealing with diapers.

You are a pioneer and I would like to hear about your experience as it develops.
 
I agree with John and Laurie, we should use what works for us. We have a 29 so this is not an issue but this thread has given those looking for a head that works for them some options. I still think that Marine Sanitation in Seattle is a good place to find these options.
Bob
 
knotflying: Fair enough -- give it a try and good luck. I'm sure it will work out regardless of any issue I may have raised. I must say it is innovative.
 
OK, this is won't be pretty, but here we go:

So where do you and can you dispose of the waste safely and legally? At the end of the boating season, you take the top off the toilet, remove the "solids tank" invert it into a trash bag and collect a few coffee can sized granular lumps of peat moss-like stuff. Takes a few weeks to fully decompose, but if you are in a hurry you can add a readily available enzyme to speed the process.

The thought of decomposing material being in the boat for weeks/months etc would bother me. The idea of 30 gallons of sewage sloshing around in a tank in your boat doesn't bother you? Think peat moss on your garden. Think cow paddies disintegrating in a few days (unless kept dry without aeration; i.e., the moisture, crank and fan). Here's what Air Head explains: "Once solid matter enters the main tank the foul-smelling anaerobic bacteria dies in a few days in the presence of air making way for non odorous aerobic bacteria. This process works best when urine is not present, (as inside the Air Head Dry Toilet), due to a carbon/nitrogen ratio that maximizes aerobic bacterial action." And, the result is:


How friendly is this Airhead for children? After spending a weekend helping my buddy tear out his head in his Mainship Trawler to find tiny plastic toys pumped into the system by a visiting child, the Air Head started to look even better. Just remove the toys from the peat moss at the end of the season.

Sometimes, its about the adults not the kids. Instead of explaining to adults (any less children) turn this valve, pump as little as possible, turn valve again, etc., etc. you simply tell a child to move the lever to open the hopper, then close it when you're done. They love the crank. I can't resist telling this story about the same buddy: We had a clog in the Mainship's system so we both pumped and pumped and pumped pressurizing the system (she had a huge bladder tank) to about 10,000 lbs per inch. Still no joy. So he goes over the side to try clearing the thru hull fitting with a screw driver while I watched from deck. The cloud that suddenly emanated and enveloped him was to behold! He hates me to tell that story, don't let him know.


Does your wife/companion/friends mind having to crank the handle? Lets see open valve, pump (forever if there's paper in there), close valve. Or is is close valve, pump then... No– folks seem able, even the wife, to turn the crank half a turn without undue stress.

How often is thorough cleaning of the toilet required? Exactly the same as an old fashioned head; except you only clean the bowl. Read on TugNuts the various mixtures of water and vinegar many boaters have used to clean/flush out their entire head systems at least once a season. I almost bought a used R25 until the broker advised me the sewage smell was bad in the engine compartment; his advice was that's its a good idea to change out ALL the hoses and clamps on your sanitation system every few years. That R25 was two years old... Don't forget in addition to cleaning/replacing the hoses, the holding tank (gross!) needs attention and you can buy a special filter (for up to a few hundred dollars) for the tank's vent line to reduce the odor wafting off your transom into the marina, or being sucked back into the boat while underway.

BTW I learned about all the problems with sewage odor from many posts right here, on this forum, from other Ranger owners. This convinced me I did not want a conventional sewer (head & tank) on my boat. PS. just like the incinolet (talk about power usage!) the Air Head comes with coffee filters so solids do not even touch the bowl, the whole shebang goes down the large hole with a lever flip. Since the "hole" is large (unlike the 1.5 inch opening in a marine head) one can dispense with the filters because everything goes down the hatch without touching the bowl, anyway.


Is it completely waterproof from the shower water spray? Yup. Even has a sort of giant 0-ring under the seat to seal it completely unlike a marine head. The Air Head's competitor, Natures Head, doesn't have the )-ring but still no smell. Shower water won't hurt anything, anyway.

It's made of plastic/glass and plastic degrades over time and becomes brittle -- fine cracks can appear and propagate. This toilet is built like a tank with thick high density resin-even the liquid tank (for urine) is 1/4" thick. It should be for $1,000 and it is! The boat is also made of plastic and will degrade over time, but the toilet will out last the fiberglass boat hull. Forget fine cracks, there is no gel coat. Nothing will propagate. All hardware is SS.

There's nasty and unsightly piece of 2" vent flex pipe that has to be used for venting. Ah, here you have a point, as who would want that hose dangling from the ceiling all the way to the toilet's vent outlet. After removing the standard head, one will discover that the outlet sewer hose is exactly the right diameter to attach directly to the toilet's vent. So in my installation, the venting hose is no more visible than on the standard marine head until it disappears into the deck to travel to the holding tank.

Where do you cut the 2 1/4" vent hole ? Anywhere. We've got tons of holes in the sides of the boat (just look at the Ranger manual-I was quite shocked). In my case, after disconnecting the hose from the holding tank, we extended it and ran it to a vent hole cut in the stern, transom. You can see it in my photo album in the stern shot, the vent is right above and to the right of the "t" in Alto. The fan is installed to the through hull fitting; i.e., way back in the transom.

The 12v fan will eventually wear out and/or make nasty noises. Actually, probably not. It is a super high quality fan which also continuously vents the entire boat cabin which is a nice feature for those of us in warmer climates. Additionally, since there is negative air pressure in the bowl it is not unpleasant to "open" the hatch in the toilet when using it because there is no odor (its sucked out through the vent hose) then it is to leave the hatch closed and use the coffee filter. In using a marine head there is odor from the bowl until you pump it away, but there is none ever with the Air Head during use. Regarding the nasty noises, I had to kneel on the swim platform and put my ear up to it to hear a slight whirr to make sure it was on. BTW, no odors even at that range, 6" nose-to-vent!

The Airhead has rubber seals even though its web site says otherwise. Well, as Sarah would say "Gotcha!" Errr, maybe not. I think what Air Head means is that there are no rubber parts (beyond the giant O-ring under the seat which does not seal against liquids-just air) to break down even when you put two SS clamps at each fitting. There are no seals in a hand-pump that needs to be lubricated by flushing mineral oil down the toilet once or twice a season. Jeez, whoever remembers to do that! BTW no "Y" valves, seacocks, macerator pumps, hoses means lots less to fail.

Airhead has no color choice. Like you had a choice when you bought your boat with installed head? Actually, the Air Head is a pleasant off-white color.

If holding tank fills when on the water how is the tank's contents disposed of? Quote from FAQ "At Sea: When offshore and/or outside of the legal limits of United States, the solids may be taken to the edge of the boat and dumped overboard." The Air Head is USCG approved under CFR 159.53. The solids tank could only "fill" if you had a bunch of people using it daily. For a couple using it daily (or say two couples using it for a weekend occasionally) it won't fill. The point is it continuously breaks down. If you plan to exceed its rated 80 uses (e.g., that's twice per weekend for 5 months or like me maybe 8 times for one week a month), than you should carry a spare solids tank. The tank comes with a lid, just in case. Ideally, one waits until the stuff is completely degraded (accelerating this with the little pouch of enzyme if desired) and then empties the tank directly into a flower bed. In an emergent situation just upturn the tank into a plastic bag and hose out the tank (sterilization not required nor helpful to the aerobic bacteria) which is not a big deal for anyone who ever dealt with a porta-potti.

Now the liquid tank does fill– in about three days as used by a couple. But, this is not "solid" and as urine is completely sterile (if not we'd all have constant UTI's) and has no nutrients in it so can go overboard. I still trek my bottle to the marina bathroom (neighbors might freak) and I prefer not to dump overboard (the St. Johns River is a tight, contained ecosystem not like ocean/tidal waters) so I paid $30 for a spare bottle. Voila! 6 days at sea, well river. The bottle fits perfectly in the most aft lazarette. Imagine a Coast Guard inspection where the officer finds NO connection from the head to a holding tank system–inspection done! If he sees you storing your liquids to bring home to the marina, you may get a medal. What is it? 99% of bodies found at sea have alcohol in their systems and their flies down. Anyway, the coasties will never make you tie off your Y-valve again, cause there ain't no septic hose to it.


Crank handle requires space to operate and this can cause installation/position issues in the tight space on Ranger Tug R25. Lots of room to crank on my little R25. You can have the crank on either side, but I used the left side (sitting on it) for venting to the standard head outlet hose, so I had the crank installed on the right side. Crank is removable and the toilet comes with a fitting to use a ratchet wrench if you are putting the toilet, say, in the well in the middle of a V-berth on a, 18' Compak Sailboat. NOTE: The Air Head allows you the option of a marine size seat/cover, or a standard round home size seat/cover. I wanted the the standard size seat being a "fat a___" kind of guy, but I chickened out and ordered the marine size and I'm glad I did. That bathroom is small (I think the R27's head is much bigger) and the toilet would have had to be mounted further to the front to allow the seat to open fully which would be pretty tight. So far, its just fine for a 6'2" 230 lb. lump like me. There–now you've made me tell you all my secrets!
The 12v fan must be run continuously! Yup, and in southern climes, or warm New England summers, one should have a continuous venting fan in the cabin. Thing draws all of 80 milliamps and is compensated for by one of those cheap 5 watt dash board solar panels you plug into a cigarette lighter. Or, you can buy a solar battery powered day & night vent from Defender for $150 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... id=1193043 and have no current draw.

Got to mention that my 30 gallon holding tank is now a spare fresh water tank (could be diesel) and I'm happily plumbing a fitting to my macerator outflow (which no longer feeds a Y-valve) to connect a garden hose to so I can refill my main fresh water tank when at anchor. No sewage sloshing around in the rear. No septic smells of any type. No fittings to watch or lubricate.

OK, now for the real problems, because nothing is perfect: Its about $1,000 you can save a little bit with Nature's Head, but its not a complete system (you need to get other stuff) and quality and support are nothing compared to Air Head. You need to build a platform that the toilet sits on that protrudes and supports the liquid tank. Nature's Head does not require this, but then you have to open the solids tank and lift it up a 1/2" to get the liquid bottle out. Air Head has a spring loaded nozzle on the tank that sort of pops into place when you slide it into the unit; however, you still need the plywood support base. The biggest issue I've had was a slight urine smell as the liquid tank does not seal (no lever), hence the O-ring under the toilet seat. Urine can collect in droplets towards the front of the bowl, where it is diverted by a slant in the bowl's bottom and contribute to the smell. The solution is to keep a spray bottle (1/2 vinegar and 1/2 water) to spray down the inside of the bowl every now and then. Weirdly, adding something like half a cup of sugar to the liquid tank before re-installing it also cuts out the smell–I'm going to try that. Here are some good pictures of installations: http://www.airheadtoilet.com/customers.html The fan does need to go continually, although no harm is done if it quits-decomposition just slows. Ideally, you empty the tank at least a few weeks after the last use say when re-commissioning the boat having it let it just sit during your off season. If you don't have an off season, then use the enzyme to speed up the process before you empty the tank. The Air Head come with a "brick" of peat moss to start the process. Good instructions come and you leave the brick in a bag with water overnight till it expands, break it up, and then down the hatch. Pretty easy. The best part of the Air Head is the great support from Geoff the company owner–its up to your Ranger expectations in every manner.
 
Jerry: Thank you. I'm pleased that my set of questions prompted you to post back a very complete and well written set of responses. It helps me and, I'm sure, others as well. 🙂
 
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