HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Have a tech question or tidbit you wish to share with the other Ranger Tug owners? Post it here.

HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby PanaSeaAh on Tue May 28, 2019 9:21 pm

Hoping maybe I could get some help...2009 R-25 with Cummins 2.0L 150: Short history is owned 12 months, ran great last year but always hard to start if not used for 3 for more days. Always started after priming. Put over 100 hours on it. Serviced in fall, then run for 30 miles to be sure everything was right. Stored inside and heated. Will not start and/or stay running. Fuel system had much air in it and very difficult to bleed and prime. Contacted local Mercruiser Service who did not want to work on a diesel and suggested I take it to a truck service. Second shop (also Mercruiser) said "no problem", bled fuel, then told me it wouldn't start (duh), so I should take it somewhere else. Called factory and was referred to Grand Haven Michigan dealer. They do not have a service department and referred me to Reed Yachts in Toledo Beach. They found me an excellent diesel mechanic and we have done the following so far: 2 New batteries (planned anyway) bled and primed, purged and confirmed fuel to injectors. Repaired leaking fuel return line connection on fuel pump (letting air in; no fuel out). All fuses checked. Contacted Cummins,and got the ol' "let me transfer you", followed by we do not know. Sensors disconnected and confirmed working: crank sensor, valve timing, fuel pressure, temp. (All send message to Sea Sense) Removed and checked fuel pickup from tank. Isolated fuel system from tank to fuel pump and pressure tested, no leaks. Removed all fuel connections and tried to run while drawing from a jug of fuel and returning to another jug. Started, but would only run for two minutes with very little return. Reassembled, re-purged, started, and got same result. After starts, got "low fuel pressure" or "fuel rail pressure parameter out of range" on Sea Sense panel. Not sure if this is why it stopped. Now won't start, and fuel pressure alarm comes up when cranking. No air in system after 8 days. Still can't connect with ECM.
Tried several times to connect to Cummins Insight (ECM). Won't talk to computer. (Message is "no connection") Confirmed computer and link work on another boat. without this, cant detect pump status or shutoff valve operation, if available.
Economic concerns aside, I am starting to see my season shorten or disappear.
ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. Including naming a Mercruiser dealer in eastern Michigan that could assist with electronics. Thank you
PanaSeaAh
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:33 pm
City: Port Huron
State/Province: MI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: PanaSeaAhToo

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby Salty7 on Tue May 28, 2019 9:56 pm

Hard to start after 3 days sounds like fuel leaking back from delivery line, a cracked fitting somewhere might cause that or the fuel pump may be allowing air into the system. The fact that it started from a jug of fuel is encouraging and the low fuel pressure messages sound like it might be a fuel delivery pump failed or failing.

I am assuming that the engine is not aqualocking from an exhaust failure. Please do not crank your engine for prolonged periods with the seacock open. You can back water up from the exhaust into the engine.

I suggest you contact a Cummins dealer, tell them which motor you have and have one of their trained, experienced, mechanics pay your boat a visit.
Salty7
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:06 am
City: La Conner
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: KIKI (2012) Yanmar 4BY2-150

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby captstu on Tue May 28, 2019 11:26 pm

I found a crack in my fuel filter bowl. Try feeding your engine directly from a jug into the lift pump using a clear hose. That is how my mechanic determined I had a vacuum leak. Run like a top. - Or a least a good diesel


Stuart Bell
Ranger 25: Shearwater
(561) 352-1796
Stuart Bell (561) 352-1796
stu@Shearwater-sailing.com
R-25 Shearwater IV
captstu
 
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:07 pm
City: Delray Beach
State/Province: FL
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Shearwater IV

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby knotflying on Wed May 29, 2019 6:28 am

I seem to remember the Cummings owners has a problem with a hard start. I can't remember the exact fit, but I thought it was an electric module issue or something like that. You may want to do a search on this site or perhaps someone will see this and chime in
“What we call reality is merely an ILLUSION we create for learning and enjoyment….”
knotflying
 
Posts: 4387
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:42 pm
City: Charlestown
State/Province: RI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: http://illusionsmikeandjess.blogspot.com/
Vessel Name: (2011) Illusions

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby trailertrawlerkismet on Wed May 29, 2019 6:44 am

Sorry to read about your boat starting problem Fred. I had a Cummins in a prior boat and when needed work was done I used Cummins Bridgeway, which has a place not to far from you in Clinton Township. There number is 586-469-2010. You’ll get to the bottom of the problem but do let us know what the final solution is.

Jim Favors
Jim & Lisa FavorsR29S Kismet
info@trailertrawlerlife.com
http://www.trailertrawlerlife.com
Image
http://favorsgreatloopblog.com
http://boatus.com/cruising/kismet/log.asp
trailertrawlerkismet
 
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:08 pm
City: Traverse City
State/Province: MI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-29 S
Vessel Name: (2018) Kismet

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby tugnnaweigh on Wed May 29, 2019 1:52 pm

I had a Cummins QSD 150 in my 2006 R25 that I felt had a power issue and I pulled the intake, operated the primer, changed all the filters etc.like you’ve done but to no effect.

A shop did a ECM scan both static and under way and found everything within parameters. A point the shop owner made as we went over both scans was the amount of sensors, any one of which can affect engine operation.

So you’re on the right track chasing a fueling issue. Check the ECM and see what the date on it is. If the date is later than 2009 chances are it was updated to address the hard starting issue.

To keep things simple think of the fueling system as having just two sides, a suction side and a pressure side. If there’s a compromise in the suction side air goes in and if there’s a compromise on the pressure side fuel comes out.

So you start with the big pieces; if the ECM is an updated one the next big piece is the fuel pump which it looks like you’ve diagnosed except for putting a physical gauge on the pressure side to ensure the pump is making and keeping proper pressure which should be pretty high like double digit PSI. Try this drawing from the jug and then drawing from the tank and see if there’s any difference.

Then I’d buy another pump and see what PSI it makes and if they’re the same I’d install the new pump keeping the old for a spare. If pressure out of these pumps is good and stays good the suction side is good and then it’s off to the pressure side and I’d keep pushing on the ECM to get it to scan as you’ll get a print out covering each and every sensor instead of tangling with sensors one at a time.

Diesel fuel systems once troublesome can be difficult. Think of the typical priming pumps as being capable of getting most but not all of the air out, what you’re hoping for here is enough air being removed to have the engine then rattle back to life and perhaps idle a little rough for a little while until it settles back down.
tugnnaweigh
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:45 pm
City: San Luis Obispo
State/Province: CA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-29 Classic
Vessel Name: Slippn Inn

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Wed May 29, 2019 11:16 pm

The symptoms you described from last season were exactly the way mine behaved right after we got her. Ran like a top once started but was a bugger to start when cold for a couple of days. Solved that problem by putting in bigger batteries. The only time she's cold natured now is the first start in spring. The ECM won't let the engine start if it doesn't turn fast enough during the start sequence(150rpm?). I think I put batteries in with 50 percent more (combined) cranking amps than the engine specs call for.

Since the engine was running fine(more or less) last year and now won't run at all it sounds suspiciously like an electronic problem. And an intermittent one at that. The sensors on these engines are not the most robust in the world. But most system faults only "derate" the engine. There are only a couple of things that will shut it down.
- ECM detects a short anywhere in the injector circuit
- ECM detects a fault in the speed sensor

Starting is prevented if a short is detected on either side of the starter relay.

Low fuel pressure only "derates" the engine, doesn't shut it down. I've started mine a couple of times without remembering to open the fuel shut off valve and not noticed until it starved and shut down. Never had a problem restarting with nothing more than pumping the primer and turning the key again. The low pressure alarm persists for a few minutes until the air purges out of the system but no shutdown.

All of this is in the engine manual.
Dan

Never confuse confidence for competence.
NorthernFocus
 
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 am
City: Anchorage
State/Province: AK
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Divine Focus

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby PanaSeaAh on Fri May 31, 2019 9:52 am

Thank you all for the input. I will share your experience with the technician.
Currently, it shows no sign of air, primer is hard, no leaks, and cranking RPM is 190 to 200. Start battery is new 1000 CCA. Gain about 10 - 15 RPM crank speed with emergency parallel switch on. It always started if it cranked 170 RPM before.
He had some time to work on it again, and we are going in the wrong direction. Now it refuses to start at all, even for a few seconds. Can't follow on scanning suggestions because ECM won't communicate. Still trying to get some assistance with the scan issue. Cummins factory tech suggested comparing readings with THE OTHER ENGINE. Well, that was helpful!! :?: Failing that, may have to start throwing parts at it. Still not sure it is possible to change fuel pump with engine in place.
PanaSeaAh
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:33 pm
City: Port Huron
State/Province: MI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: PanaSeaAhToo

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Fri May 31, 2019 12:09 pm

How many total hours on the engine?
Dan

Never confuse confidence for competence.
NorthernFocus
 
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 am
City: Anchorage
State/Province: AK
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Divine Focus

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby tugnnaweigh on Fri May 31, 2019 2:44 pm

The sequence of symptoms you’re experiencing look like it went into limp mode and then shutdown also known as no start. Seems your low fuel pressure sensor correctly or incorrectly limped it and fiddling around from there has shut the ECM down. You’re correct when you say “we are going in the wrong direction.”

Modern engines, gas or diesel, have many peripheral systems, monitors and sensors and you need to keep all of them happy or you can get a cascading series of events which is what it looks like,

So to start at the beginning and see if your engine is still operational any more try a puff of starting fluid, likely it will come back to life briefly. I understand starting fluid is bad for engines so go light here. But now you know it will run and all you have to do is figure out why it doesn't .

Next, starting with what you know, make sure your current fuel pump is not the cause of the low fuel pressure message by confirming it puts out the proper PSI. The pump is electrically driven, stuck to the side of the engine somewhere and doesn't require removing the engine, follow the fuel line.

Any 12 volt pump putting out respectable PSI is one hard working son of a gun at it’s performance limit all the time and any diminishing of its performance will likely cause fuel pressure lower than what the fuel pressure sensor wants to see.

And don’t forget if you just connect the fuel pump output line into a PSI gauge you’re only getting a static reading, the right way is to T the gauge into the output line for a reading while fuel is actually being pumped into the running engine, that’s your actual fuel pressure. But your engine won’t run so it’s a Catch 22 circle going back on itself I feel your pain.

So either quantify the PSI your pumps putting out while the engine is actually running or just replace it and keep the other as a spare so you can move forward on the assumption fuel pressure is now adequate.

Then if your ECM still “isn’t communicating” make sure it at least has power and then figure out if it's not fried which likely means shipping it off for testing. Ranger Tugs might have a loaner to send out in the meanwhile and most likely would be the best place to find an ECM testing service referral.

Take heart, the world of ECMs isn't a bottomless rabbit hole, there’s places that repair (reflash) them, there’s places that sell used ones reflashed to your application; think of ECMs as manufactured generically and flashed to each application.

And if the year of manufacture on your ECMs label is the year of manufacture of your boat it needs to be reflashed anyway, that was the cure of the hard start situation back in the day.

So to avoid “throwing parts at it” you need to focus on eliminating as a cause the two items you know are causing problems based on low fuel pressure and an uncommunicative ECM.

If you do decide to throw parts remember to keep the old ones as spares, likely they're fine.
tugnnaweigh
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:45 pm
City: San Luis Obispo
State/Province: CA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-29 Classic
Vessel Name: Slippn Inn

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Fri May 31, 2019 4:57 pm

tugnnaweigh wrote:...Next, starting with what you know, make sure your current fuel pump is not the cause of the low fuel pressure message by confirming it puts out the proper PSI. The pump is electrically driven, stuck to the side of the engine somewhere and doesn't require removing the engine, follow the fuel line.

Any 12 volt pump putting out respectable PSI is one hard working son of a gun at it’s performance limit all the time and any diminishing of its performance will likely cause fuel pressure lower than what the fuel pressure sensor wants to see.
...

The fuel pump on the Cummins is gear driven, not 12V.

The engine was running, was put into winter storage, and now it's not. It's not likely that a mechanical component spontaneously went bad over the winter. The fuel pressure sensor is a more likely point of failure than the pump. There are any number of electronic components that can be negatively effected by corrosion or by electrostatic discharge. Either of which could easily have occurred while out of service. Keep in mind that the fuel injection system is totally controlled by the ECM. No brains, no brawn.

From the manual:
Electrostatic Discharge Damage
Control system electronics operate at a low voltage and are susceptible to damage caused
by electrostatic discharge. Less than 100 volts of static electricity can cause damage to
electronic components. By comparison, it takes as much as 4,000 volts for a person to feel
a static discharge.

An ignition key switch controlled 10‑ampere circuit breaker located on the circuit breaker
panel on top of the engine supplies the ECM with switched power. The engine may crank
but will not start If any of the ECM circuit breakers are open. If the ECM does not receive
a 12‑volt power signal no ECM dependant vessel systems will function properly. SmartCraft
instrumentation will display a "no communication" error message.

The ECM microprocessors receive input signals from the sensors listed:
• Crankshaft speed sensor
• Camshaft position sensor
• IAT/MAP sensor
• Rail fuel pressure sensor
• ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor
• Engine oil temperature and pressure sensor
• Engine fuel temperature sensor
• TP sensor (a setpoint generator)


The whole story does sound like you may be spiraling downward. With what has been described so far it sounds suspiciously like some electronic components and/or wiring have been compromised during the course of troubleshooting.

The actuators controlled by the ECM output signals include:
• Electronically controlled pressure‑control valve (mounted on the high‑pressure pump)
• Fuel injectors

IOW, without a signal from the ECM, no fuel.

If you are going to start changing parts it may be worth considering electronic components first.
Dan

Never confuse confidence for competence.
NorthernFocus
 
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 am
City: Anchorage
State/Province: AK
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Divine Focus

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby PanaSeaAh on Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:43 pm

Thank you Dan. I have not been able to locate circuit breakers on the engine, but there are two rows of fuses under weather covers on the top front of the engine. Are those what you are referring to? Checked all of those with a meter as the first step. Have also disconnected and reconnected the Engine Consternation Module. (Third step) after priming and purging.
PanaSeaAh
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:33 pm
City: Port Huron
State/Province: MI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: PanaSeaAhToo

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:03 pm

PanaSeaAh wrote:Thank you Dan. I have not been able to locate circuit breakers on the engine, but there are two rows of fuses under weather covers on the top front of the engine. Are those what you are referring to? Checked all of those with a meter as the first step. Have also disconnected and reconnected the Engine Consternation Module. (Third step) after priming and purging.

Yes I believe what the manual refers to as circuit breakers are in fact the fuses on top of the engine. I think something lost in translation and/or redesign along the way.
Dan

Never confuse confidence for competence.
NorthernFocus
 
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 am
City: Anchorage
State/Province: AK
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Divine Focus

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby Levitation on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:12 am

I did have a hard starter that eventually became a non starter. $2500 in a new ECM (including paying by the hour for their otj training) fixed that. I lost that entire summer for boating.

Were I to physically tackle this engine (not volunteering) I would first prove that the engine is mechanically capable of running. Why? You might ask. Well a broken crank for one. A broken timing chain for another. I can hear the peanut gallery - "but but but, it ran before". Yup, it did. And so did every engine in history right up to the instant that something snapped.I hate busting my rear, and my knuckles, chasing the wrong problem.

Anyway, I digress. For this you pull the air intake filter (round black can above the tranny) so you can see into the intake end of the turbo. Next get a propane torch - the old kind where you can open the valve and flow gas without lighting the flame. Point it into the turbo intake, helper cranks the engine, you open the valve to a medium hiss. Engine should (may) start immediately. Adjust the propane flow to keep it running - a fast idle is enough to show there is compression and ignition and the engine is not rattling and banging internally whilst flailing pistons around like Maracas.

Another way is to unhook the output hose and flow propane into the intake without going through the turbo which eliminates a spark from the turbo vanes igniting the propane in the intake with a bang (shrug - no harm done). Here at the farm I don't bother with that. We blow propane into the engine right through the turbo compressor. Never had a bang - and this rickety old machinery went with Sherman during his march to the sea.

Assuming it starts and runs for a few minutes - turn the propane off and see if it continues to run. If it does hut it down and immediately try a restart without propane. Either way will tell us a lot.

If the propane works but the immediate restart does not, the next step is a pita. You have to put a Tee into the fuel line (from the pump to the center of the fuel rail) where skinned knuckles and swearing is de rigeur. This line comes from the mechanical fuel pump below on the port side of then engine and goes up to the center of the fuel rail between injector lines 2 and 3. Crank the engine and measure rail pressure. Start the engine with propane and measure the rail pressure. Compare to book value (not in my memory)

OK. Moving on. Do you see white vapor wafting out of the turbo when cranking for a while? If not, you are not fueling the cylinders. That puppy is not gonna start without fuel. Assuming the rail pressure is good, you are left with:
a. Injectors not firing for lack of voltage/current
b. ECM not telling the injectors to fire
c. (the 64 dollar question) Which?

Sigh, this very excellent engine is the red headed step child of a bitter divorce between Mercruiser and Cummins. Cummins is no longer legally involved. It's Mercruiser's baby (and boy do they hate it) You are going to need a replacement ECM and a technician with experience and the scanner tool to install and program the new ECM. (In the process if a sensor is the real culprit the scanner will flag it)

Mercruiser really really with all their heart, does not want to deal with the QSD 2.0. Your best tool here might be an attorney to drop Mercruiser a letter that helping to solve this for you would be appreciated, and not helping you solve it will more expensive.
denny-o
R25 #115
Levitation
 
Posts: 1221
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:39 am
City: hemlock
State/Province: MI
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Charlotte Ann

Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby King Fischer on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:07 pm

My question is, the Cummins 2.0 that bad? Are any of them still running?

Les
King Fischer
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:09 pm
City: Sequim
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: King Fischer

Next

Return to General Technical Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests