HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby scross on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:56 pm

The Cummins 2.0 was quite an expensive option at the time. There always seem to be a lot of them for sale given their share of the production volume. When I was in the market I skipped looking at them after researching comments on this forum. I think the biggest problems with the QSD are not with the design per se but with parts availability and competent servicing. Especially now that they are 7-9 years old and Mercruiser is seemingly not very supportive.
Vicki Foley and Al Thomas
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby Levitation on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:44 am

Yeah. Mine runs like a top - now.
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby King Fischer on Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:56 am

We've owned this boat now for three months. One trip and water pump pully broke. Still no pully. Now reading about this engine, I'm concerned. I can't figure out why Ranger Tug factory isn't more supportive on this issue.

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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby tugnnaweigh on Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:06 pm

I owned and operated one of these in a R25 for four or so years. My understanding is ti was a Merc/Cummins collaboration and then both stepped away so current owners are best served by their own efforts.

What I found most often in parts was Cummins had some and Merc did not.

With a no start/run as said above first confirm it will run with starting fluid or propane then move to why it doesn't run starting with the big items, ECM, fuel pump/pressure, filters, sensors, voltage, etc.

Try not to break something as you check it causing it to become another reason the engine doesn't operate.

As for scanning and flashing the ECM I thought those were two different fish to fry but folks here are talking like being able to scan the ECM carries with it the ability to flash it also.

As for the pully, it’s a standard pully, Merc/Cummins didn't manufacture it, they bought it off a pully manufacturer, get the dimensions and it’ll appear on a Google search.
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:47 pm

My the Cummins haters have been active while mine was chugging me all around Prince William Sound for a week :D

First, one thing to be clear about is this. Mercury/Mercruiser still sells/services this exact same engine with the same Smartdata controls system. If you don't believe it here's a link to the page on their current website:

https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/engines/diesel/mercury-diesel/20l-tier-3/

scross wrote:... I think the biggest problems with the QSD are not with the design per se but with parts availability and competent servicing. Especially now that they are 7-9 years old and Mercruiser is seemingly not very supportive.

You're right that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the engine. At least when compared with any of the other light weight, ultra clean burn pleasure craft engines. Certainly based on comments on this forum support is an issue. By definition. In marketing perception is reality. Likely the reason that (lack of) support is such an issue is because the Mercury brand is in every market where there are boats whereas their share of the diesel market is very small. So finding a Mercury/Mercruiser dealer is no problem but finding one who deals with their own diesel products is. So there is a frustration factor. You walk into a shop with the same logo as the one on your engine and they can't help you. And then if you do find one who services diesels but you live outside their business territory that's another whole can of worms. But that's one nice thing about having a trailerable boat :D Certainly when Merc and Cummins had a business arrangement there were a LOT more service locations available.

King Fischer wrote:We've owned this boat now for three months. One trip and water pump pully broke. Still no pully. Now reading about this engine, I'm concerned...

Why no pulley? Do you mean you're waiting for a mechanic/repair shop to get a pulley? There are several suppliers on the internet who can provide you with any part needed for the QSD. Some of the less used items may take a couple of weeks but certainly not a pulley. Not the mention the fact that you can probably walk into a NAPA store with the old one and walk back out with a new one. Like someone else said, a pulley is a pulley. Belt type, diameter, and bolt pattern match and you're in biz.

tugnnaweigh wrote:I owned and operated one of these in a R25 for four or so years. My understanding is ti was a Merc/Cummins collaboration and then both stepped away so current owners are best served by their own efforts.

What I found most often in parts was Cummins had some and Merc did not...

Not sure who you talked to but see my comment above. The QSD 2.0 is still a product actively marketed by Mercruiser. I've not had any issue finding parts for mine to-date. Problems finding them at a reasonable cost but that's another story. Luckily you only have to buy one of anything through Mercruiser. Simply tear off the label that they stuck over the OEM label and you have what you need to cut out the middle man. All of the fuel system components and engine sensors are made by Bosch, Mahle belt and filters, etc. The basic engine is the same one that is in tens of thousands of diesel powered Jeep Liberties most of which are in the overseas market. Also the same engine in tens of thousands of delivery trucks all over Europe. That's why Merc is still selling them after the divorce with Cummins. It never was a Cummins engine. Best I can figure Cummins just licensed their name and made money selling parts for a while.

And oh, by the way the forum here is full of plenty of horror stories about Yanmar and Volvo engines too. Boats ain't cars.
Dan

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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby King Fischer on Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:55 pm

In this case a pully is not just a pully. The bolt pattern has to fit the hub on the Sherwood pump. Where there is a lot of pully's out there this one is unique to the Sherwood pump. I have checked NAPA and O'Reilys, no luck. I have three on order from three different sources and they are all on back order until the middle of June. There might be a lot of these engines out there but there are no pully's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby Salty7 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:41 am

I ran 2 Cummins QSB engines for 14 years on my last boat and had outstanding luck with them. My best source for knowledge and parts was always Tony Athens at Seaboard Marine, try giving him a call 805-382-6287. Tony got so fed up with Sherwood pumps he manufactured his own, his were outstanding pumps, far better quality than the Sherwoods. He may have some answers and parts for you. Granted I had bigger engines but Tony knows Cummins motors and parts inside and out.
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby King Fischer on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:35 am

Thanks for info, I will give him a try.
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby PanaSeaAh on Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:11 pm

Thank you for sharing experiences and suggestions. Progress so far: Went back to Cummings and found a knowledgeable tech. After much searching, he concluded that the ECM does not respond to Cummings "In-Sight" software interface, which is their software for their (non-Mercruiser) marine engines, and some others. Stated I had to go to a Mercruiser dealer. (Have already been to two).
Short version: Contacted Detroit area Merc PREMIER DIESEL Service dealer. Would not look at it. They suggested a Mercruiser PREMIER DIESEL dealer in Ohio, who would not work on it. Went back to Mercruiser factory support. Got a sharp tech on the phone who asked all the right questions, and said it was probably the ECM or the fuel pressure sensor on the fuel pump, and that both were available to a dealer. He also confirmed that only Mercruiser G-3 software interface can communicate with that motor. At my request, he searched bulletins on that engine and confirmed there was a Technical Service Bulletin on that engine about ECM and starting (but you all knew that). HE then called a shop in Harrison Township (Mt. Clemens) who agreed to work on it. He assured me they had the knowledge to do so. Moved it the next day, 200 mile round trip. I am approximately 134th in line... :cry: :cry:
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby tugnnaweigh on Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:27 pm

Good news, things are looking up! Now the wallet comes out, success has a price and it's worth it, keep saying that, it's worth it, it's worth it because it is. Before this uptick you had no Boating which has no value and now, for exchanging some value you have Boating which is priceless.
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Re: HELP R-25 Classic Cummins starting problem

Postby NorthernFocus on Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:34 pm

This is an interesting story. When the Mercruiser Diesel shops turn you away do they give you a reason for doing so? Makes no sense as it is the same engine and control system that they still sell. Unless perhaps those shops have only worked on their larger diesel engines and never the QSD series. Still seems odd.

A $100 pressure sensor would be a cheap experiment. Two bolts and a plug-in connection to the wiring harness. Assuming you can contort yourself into the necessary position to get at it :(
Dan

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