Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Ask away with your Ranger technical or pre-sales questions. A Ranger rep will give you the official scoop.

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby Chimo on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:08 pm

I'm sure I have probably added my two cents worth on a different thread but here goes.

We were very happy with our C-Dory 23 Venture with twin 60 hp Yamaha's for many years. It was exceptionally well finished even in comparison with a RT having been one of those unusual units that was built fully insulated and with all the extras such as the Wallas stove/heater, hot water heater, galvanic isolator etc. etc. It would cruise at the speed I liked [about 15 mile-per-hour] and would deliver 3 miles per gallon from that speed pretty much all the way to its top speed of 30 mph. What made us change was the desire for a shower and to move away from the porta potti that meant disturbing everyone and everything during those midnight trips that become more frequent with later years. Of course we then fell in love with all the other extras, wider beam equals more space, microwave, swim platform and so on.

When we went to look for a new boat our first target was the R 23. I liked again the idea of outboards. What killed it for me was the overall length with outboards up since it didn't fit in the boathouse. What killed it for my wife [and therefore for me] was having the shower and head still in the V berth. We are now very happy with our R25SC am glad we were able to catch the last of the generation, the 2017. Is the boat perfect? No. EVERY boat is a compromise and I'm sure that everyone will defend their choices boat vociferously but in the end all that matters is that we are happy with the choice we have made. My last thought is that I'm glad I actually had a choice. The R 23 did not fit the bill though the price was attractive. The R 27 is now so far out of my price range as to take it out of consideration.
Chimo: a word of greeting, farewell, and toast before drinking once widely spoken in the Inuktitut language in northern Canada.
Chimo
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:21 am
City: Sidney
State/Province: BC
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: Chimo
MMSI Number: 316033437

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby Cutwater28GG on Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:27 pm

hull change is an interesting point.

I have a semi displacement in the cutwater 28. I would be interested to hear from owners who used to have a semi displacement hull (tug or cut) and now have an outboard powered full planning hull (tug or cut); whether on the plane, off the plane at displacement speeds, or sitting at anchor/fishing its more uncomfortable or not?

despite the c28 being semi displacement it has always felt pretty lively; and not reminiscent of either a big heavy displacement sailboat or heavy displacement power boat.
To put it another way, the semi displacement cutwater seems to be closer to the planing end of the spectrum anyway but I only have 1 point of reference :-)
Cutwater28GG
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:13 pm
City: seattle
State/Province: WA
Non-Ranger Model: Cutwater 28
Vessel Name: Living The Dream

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby Crewdog on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:30 pm

At the risk of side-tracking this thread, the thought occurred to me that in time, diesel engine use in marine environment may be curtailed.

I found this article, and more are sure to be had on a thorough Google search:
https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/shipping/air-pollution-ships

Does the crystal ball foresee a DEF requirement for diesel powered small boats?

For now, we like our inboard diesel coastal cruiser; it was an on-purpose decision to come off of planing hull to avoid the bouncing around when the hull slapped the water. X-games are fine on TV.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All
Bill and Nicole Parks
Blue Merle
2012 R-27
Woodstock, GA
Crewdog
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:24 pm
City: Woodstock
State/Province: GA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Vessel Name: Blue Merle
MMSI Number: 367556050

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby baz on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:46 pm

Crewdog wrote:At the risk of side-tracking this thread, the thought occurred to me that in time, diesel engine use in marine environment may be curtailed.

I found this article, and more are sure to be had on a thorough Google search:
https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/shipping/air-pollution-ships

Does the crystal ball foresee a DEF requirement for diesel powered small boats?

For now, we like our inboard diesel coastal cruiser; it was an on-purpose decision to come off of planing hull to avoid the bouncing around when the hull slapped the water. X-games are fine on TV.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All


Happy/Merry Christmas to you also.

I find that with my R-27/OB that with calm waters and even a small 1 foot chop there's little water slapping to bounce the boat. I'm surprised at how solid the boat feels at 30 mph and steers accurately, turns smoothly with little effort needed at the helm. It's a very 'obedient' boat in this regards. When I went at 14 mph in our R-25 I got a bit nervous as it did not respond to rudder inputs very well and would swerve about with the rudder held midships. The extra speed the R-27/OB offers does IMO help with the boat steering holding a steady course securely. I do have to agree the slapping noise for the R-27/OB is apparent which is not something you hear with the R-25 or R-27 inboard semi hulls and has taken me a bit to get used to.
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby NorthernFocus on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:35 pm

I'm an old school diesel guy. We bought an R25 for two reasons. For one, as a 25 ft boat it has an incredible amount of interior volume. Secondly was the diesel engine. But what I've since discovered with this boat is that these modern diesels have lost most of the old school advantages. It doesn't take long surfing this forum to see how many threads are associated with engine issues. Unfortunately it is a simple fact of life that modern OB engines are less problematic than modern common rail, turbocharged, high efficiency(aka low emission) diesels. The OBs are simply produced in much higher numbers and are more mature designs.

From a manufacturer's perspective a LOT of Ranger's customer service headaches vanish if they stop producing diesel powered boats. They found a market niche with the diesel tugs. They now have an established place in the market and it's probably a good business decision to move towards the OB models. Let's face it they wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

If we had to re-power our boat tomorrow I'd bolt a bracket on the transom and drop a couple of Suzukis on there.
Dan

Never confuse confidence for competence.
NorthernFocus
 
Posts: 644
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:02 am
City: Wasilla
State/Province: AK
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 Classic
Vessel Name: Divine Focus

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby YukonRon on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm

NorthernFocus wrote:... Unfortunately it is a simple fact of life that modern OB engines are less problematic than modern common rail, turbocharged, high efficiency(aka low emission) diesels. The OBs are simply produced in much higher numbers and are more mature designs...
...If we had to re-power our boat tomorrow I'd bolt a bracket on the transom and drop a couple of Suzukis on there.

Dan, that's an interesting notion. I would have thought just the opposite. Since the downfall of the 2-stroke outboards there have been huge technology changes and advancements in the 4-stroke outboards in recent years. Especially the large off-shore models. On the other hand, our Volvo and Yanmar (BMW-based) diesels have been in use in huge numbers in the automotive and industrial world for quite some time. And, yes, the diesels have also seen many technology advancements over the years as well. Makes me wonder which is really more "mature"? In this high tech world we live in now, nothing seems to get mature anymore; everything gets updated or replaced before it gets there. :(
I haven't had the boat long enough to pass judgement on engine reliability, but my diesel pickup has served me well for many years. I hope the boat does as well.
Now, if it came down to re-powering; adding outboards while keeping the semi-displacement hull might not be a bad idea.
Or drop in the Duramax from my pickup :D :shock:
Ron & Barb
Whitehorse, Yukon
Yukon Ranger
2013 R25sc
YukonRon
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:29 pm
City: Whitehorse
State/Province: YT
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: Yukon Ranger
MMSI Number: 316023451

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby YukonRon on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:35 pm

...and just for the record, I am not, in any of my posts, meaning to imply that diesel is better than outboards; or that semi-displacement is better than planing. Not looking to start any "Us" vs "Them" arguments. Those are just my current personal preferences. Everyone has good reasons why they like THEIR boat the way it is, and that is great. I actually enjoy hearing everyone's different perspectives.
I am just providing RT with MY feedback on what I like to see in their lineup, and why.
And trying to understand the direction RT is taking with their lineup changes.
Happy tuggin'
Ron & Barb
Whitehorse, Yukon
Yukon Ranger
2013 R25sc
YukonRon
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:29 pm
City: Whitehorse
State/Province: YT
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: Yukon Ranger
MMSI Number: 316023451

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby baz on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:55 pm

As an analogy to the inboard vs. outboard boat engine debate I'm drawn to and reminded about what happened in the commercial aircraft/airline business in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Many aerospace companies thought having the inboard engines in the wings was the proper thing to do to keep the wings aerodynamically clean vs. having them installed outboard and slung below the wings.

The inboard engines made for a much thicker wings to accommodate the engines and additional wing drag as a consequence and became a nightmare and costly for being serviced in the field.

The outboard engines slung under the wing were so much easier to service (and servicing cost to the airlines was a huge issue for their bottom lines) but was of concern about runway debris being ingested into the engines - especially for the military that used dirt runways in remote parts of the world.

The servicing aspect/comparison of both engine installations resulted in the outboard engines to be favored and they continue to be designed this way today.

Planes with inboard engines are so much more pleasing to look at being more aerodynamically clean vs. the ones with outboard engines hanging down like a birds feet getting ready to land. Aerodynamics is all about having 'smooth slender bodies' :lol:

There's a lot to say about having a boat's engine outside; more room inside the boat, a cleaner inside, no rudder assembly mechanism needed, much easier servicing options. The big negative is for many people not liking the engine on full view and sticking out of the stern... it's simply not traditional boat-like which is merely an esthetic/visual aspect much like for the non-aerodynamic look for aircraft having engines slung under their wings. We thus get to thinking and having to appreciate the facts of function trumping design... :o
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby dclagett on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:51 pm

:lol:
Last edited by dclagett on Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
dclagett
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:30 am
City: Ocean Pines
State/Province: MD
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-25 SC
Vessel Name: DreamChaser

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby johnniethek on Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:45 pm

I think it will be the 21. Getting rid of the engine box in the cockpit will give you a ton of room. Popping at Yamaha 150 on the back will give you plenty of get-up-and-go if/when you need it.
johnniethek
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:19 am
City: Enumclaw
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-21 EC
Vessel Name: Red Ranger
MMSI Number: 338092124

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby baz on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:58 pm

johnniethek wrote:I think it will be the 21. Getting rid of the engine box in the cockpit will give you a ton of room. Popping at Yamaha 150 on the back will give you plenty of get-up-and-go if/when you need it.


Wouldn't RT have to redesign the R-21EC's hull to take advantage of the extra HP & thrust from the 150 HP Yamaha ? Also need hydraulic steering might be required. Cost surely would be higher for the boat as well. The R-23 with its 200 HP outboard is maybe a better option. :o :)
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby Seaquel on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:05 pm

Like YukonRon, some of the comments about inboard diesel suddenly falling out of favor strikes me as counter-intuitive. I too am not bashing one style vs. the other, but have stated under previous posts that all boats (sizes, power, hull design, etc.) represent a compromise in some manner. Finding the right boat ultimately is about finding the compromises that make most sense for the individual user.

I’ve not run the new RT OB’s, but I’ve owned gas powered planing boats prior to my RT 27 Classic, and the benefits everyone is touting about the new breed of OB’s (easier to maintain, faster speed) do not compensate for what I like in a more traditional inboard diesel, semi-displacement boat. These are the attributes atop my priority list:
1. Greater safety with less combustible diesel vs. gas
2. More comfortable ride in variety of seas
3. Ease of stowing/deploying a dinghy off the stern

I understand there may be room for discussion on points #1 and #2, so I’m just speaking from my personal experience with over three decades of boating experience. For me, based on our style of boating, point #3 would be the show stopper, which renders the outboards unsuitable for my mission.

As to engine life/longevity, if my Volvo diesel powered Tug comes anywhere close to my Cummins diesel powered Dodge Ram tow vehicle with over 260,000 miles (and going strong), then I’ll be very happy. I have not owned a gas powered car or truck that could come close to pushing 200K miles, let alone 300K miles - and I’m hopeful I will get far more!

To each there own, but as has also been noted on this thread, the market is saturated with gas outboard planing boats. Until Ranger Tug cracked the code, there had never been a fully-cruisable inboard diesel semi-displacement boat that is easily TRAILERABLE. The inherent compromises to find this sweet spot fit our needs like nothing else I’ve ever seen, and I hope this choice does not disappear from the market. But if that happens, I guess I’ll just have to hold on to my “Classic” and test the longevity to see if it compares to my truck! :D
Mark & Peggy Leopold
Seaquel - 2013 R27 "Classic"
Volvo D3 200HP
Previous power boats:
- Sea Ray Sundancer 25, Bayliner Motoryacht 38, Bayliner Ciera 21
Current sailboats:
- Gig Harbor Mellonseed 17, Laser Sailboat 14, Walker Bay RID275
Seaquel
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:25 am
City: Anacortes
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: Ranger RIB260, SeaEagle RazorLite 393RL, Tower SUP
Vessel Name: Seaquel
MMSI Number: 367999120

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby baz on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:37 pm

Mark:

I firmly believe the main reason why someone would choose the RT inboard diesel model at this time is for the opportunity to have a decent sized dinghy traditionally installed at the stern of the boat easily and without fuss.

However, if the solar panel on the RT outboard models is sacrificed, a well designed crane attached to side of the boat can be used to lift and retrieve the same size dinghy or maybe even larger (longer than the 8'-6"). This may be more expensive than for the dinghy being installed at the stern but offers the advantage of having a clear view aft.

With the above in mind, choosing between the inboard and outboard models reduces to just that; inboard diesel vs. outboard gasoline. Convenient access to an engine servicing shop for the diesel and outboard will then strongly influence the choice.

The boat with better handling in various sea conditions will be forever debated.

You surely would agree that the marine version of an auto diesel engine carries many differences and just because the auto version can be shown to last a long time the same cannot be assumed to be the same for the marine version of the engine.

I've owned Volvo diesel, Peugeot diesel, VW diesel and Citroën diesel powered autos and all have crapped out in the 100K to 200K driven miles. The Peugeot was the worst of them and the Volvo one had to be rebuilt at around 90K miles.

My thoughts are that if both the marine inboard diesel and outboard engines are cared for and serviced correctly they both will live a long life.

The big advantage for the outboard RT models is speed and if that's at the top of a buyer's list it will trump the RT inboard diesel models. For example - Leaving in mid to late afternoon from Roche Harbour and getting back to our home Port in Edmonds in 2.75 hours in our R-27/OB vs. the 7 hours it used to take in our R-25 (Classic) was something that pleased us immensely.

The visual looks of both inboard and outboard RT models is another debate and quite likely an emotional one for some people who cannot get beyond this aspect.
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby Seaquel on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:50 am

Baz,

You have proved my point: for your boating mission, replacing the solar panel up top and adding a crane negates the advantage of a stern-mount dinghy, leaving greater speed as the most important factor for you. (We are agreed that either engine will likely give long years if service if maintained properly, and living in Anacortes I have easy access to certified Volvo diesel service.)

However, for me, a roof-mount dinghy is not a solution at all. I would not sacrifice the solar panel, which is critical for my mission of anchoring off the grid and not relying on shore power at marinas. Also, I carry TWO roof-top kayaks (one kayak; one SUP board that converts to a kayak and/or slide-seat rowing shell). That our easily trailerable Tug can carry all of the above on top, plus ALSO carry a dinghy suits the mission I ask of my vessel. Additionally, I can deploy my stern-mount dinghy in less than a minute vs. a much more cumbersome system to launch/retrieve with a crane. The added height may also negate easy towing as it could exceed maximum threshold and require permits and signage that I don’t currently have to fuss with.

Faster speed is not on my wish list, and an easily deployable dinghy may not be on yours. Proving again that every boat is a compromise, and finding the one that fits your specific needs is the key to finding the best boating value.
Mark & Peggy Leopold
Seaquel - 2013 R27 "Classic"
Volvo D3 200HP
Previous power boats:
- Sea Ray Sundancer 25, Bayliner Motoryacht 38, Bayliner Ciera 21
Current sailboats:
- Gig Harbor Mellonseed 17, Laser Sailboat 14, Walker Bay RID275
Seaquel
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:25 am
City: Anacortes
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: Ranger RIB260, SeaEagle RazorLite 393RL, Tower SUP
Vessel Name: Seaquel
MMSI Number: 367999120

Re: Next Ranger to get Outboards?

Postby ixlr8 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:15 am

When I ordered my 27OB I suggested to my dealer that the 21 would be an ideal candidate for an outboard. He explained that it would need a total hull redesign to take advantage of the outboard. Being a displacement hull, it didn't much matter if it was powered by 30 hp or 150 hp, top speed was going to be about the same and fuel consumption would be much higher. He also commented that with the boat being as narrow as it is, he felt it would feel a bit unstable at higher speeds.
Jim
2018 RT-27 OB Claret Red "Maggie"- on order
ixlr8
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:58 pm
City: Cushing
State/Province: ME
Non-Ranger Model: 2013 Pulsfer Hampton
Vessel Name: Lucy

PreviousNext

Return to Ask the Ranger Factory

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests