Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Ask away with your Ranger technical or pre-sales questions. A Ranger rep will give you the official scoop.

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby LAKERtoo on Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:20 pm

.. not all of us can afford the new RT boats, and I think that if the plan is to never come back to the R21 EC, it ignores that fact .. and I expect that there are a lot of us .. if that's the case, maybe Ranger should look at spinning off the R21 and R25 production to a company that will cater to a different clientele, that wants their boats a lot simpler, and less encumbered with costly gizmos, and all the maintenance issues that seem inherent with these bigger boats .. if Ranger thinks that their existing clients want bigger, more complex boats, than this new company would not be in competition with someone that builds smaller and simpler . just my opinion .. Cheers Rob
LAKERtoo
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:02 pm
City: Port Alberni
State/Province: BC
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-21
Vessel Name: RIBBIT

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby baz on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:43 pm

Rob: Yes,,,, my thought(s) as well..... I agree the R-21EC model is far more affordable and really a nice seaworthy boat.
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4273
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby Steve2017 on Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:53 pm

Im planning on getting a 21ec by next boating season. I dont think they will discontinue it becuase its how a lot of people get started and then move up.
Steve2017
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:21 am
City: Perryville
State/Province: MD
Non-Ranger Model: Key west 1720
Vessel Name: River Runner

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby Seaquel on Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:01 pm

baz wrote:Mark:

There's no doubt that RT has made a significant design change for their new R-27/OB. Yes, the new R-27/OB does in fact have a shorter cabin length than on the R-27 (Classic). However, this IMO is more than made up for by the new R-27/OB's redesigned V-berth area. This area is not only more spacious being longer and wider but also converts easily to a forward saloon area along with a generous amount of shelving and storage lockers. Thus the shorter cabin in the new R-27/OB and forward saloon together gives far more usable/living space than on the R-27 (Classic).... and yes, the R-27 (Classic)'s V-berth can be setup somewhat for extra space for people but its design is a far cry from what the new R-27/OB provides.

When on my R-27/OB we now have two spaces to have people inside; the cabin and the forward saloon. This was never the case in our R-25 (Classic), nor I suspect for the R-27 (Classic) had we owned that model.

Talking with John Livingston about the OB models he does share the concern about the difficulty in not being able to hang a dinghy off the transom platform. He mentioned he would like to find a good design to address this issue.



Barry, your point about the benefit of a larger V-berth area (and subsequently smaller salon area) is exactly why this is about personal preference. That works for you (and clearly many others), but we prefer maximizing salon space for extended cruising rather than taking salon space away for the V-birth.

It was noted on another post that most Ranger Tug owners are 60ish and retired. For RT to expand on this market, I understand offering the new OB model with what you describe as a forward salon, where the kids can be in one area and adults in another. Back in the day, with both our Bayliner 21 and Sea Ray 25 we had similar forward V-births that converted from dining to sleeping space. That was great when our kids were onboard every trip. Today, we want more salon space as our primary living area on longer trips, and we love the relative spacious “cabin” feel of the R27 “Classic” with viewing windows on all four sides versus allocating interior space “down below” like our previous boats.

As “Our Journey” observed, an inboard diesel with swim platform on a trailerable 8’6” beam is nowhere in the Ranger Tug lineup, only from Cutwater. Consider that our R27 “Classic” is only 2 feet longer than our previous Sea Ray 25 Sundancer, both with 8’6” beam, yet our Tug "feels" twice as big, between the roomier salon and generous cockpit area. We marvel at how we are able to conveniently keep our very trailerable tug at home in a garage, boat year-round relatively inexpensively due to no moorage costs, yet can launch within 20 minutes of leaving our driveway. Where we boat (San Juan's, Gulf Islands, and beyond) we are almost always the smallest boat in a given anchorage, suggesting that our small tug delivers capability and experiences more typically found in much larger boats.

As with our Bayliner 21 and Sea Ray 25, having cabin space below with dining area is not unusual. There are many boat builders offering fast, gas-powered planning boats with convertible V-birth. But it is unusual to find a tug or other cruising vessel that feels like a cabin on the water; capable of staying on anchor for days on end, opening up cruising areas independent from marinas and services. Put another way: neither Nordic Tug or American Tug make an easily trailerable tug. Ranger Tug used to, but not any more!
Mark & Peggy Leopold
Seaquel - 2013 R27 "Classic"
Volvo D3 200HP
Previous power boats:
- Sea Ray Sundancer 25, Bayliner Motoryacht 38, Bayliner Ciera 21
Current sailboats:
- Gig Harbor Mellonseed 17, Laser Sailboat 14, Walker Bay RID275
Seaquel
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:25 am
City: Anacortes
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: Ranger RIB260, SeaEagle RazorLite 393RL, Tower SUP
Vessel Name: Seaquel
MMSI Number: 367999120

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby baz on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:13 pm

Mark:

I fully understand many of your points..... :)

For comparison let's make some measurements for the R-27 (Classic) and the new R-27/OB.

1) R-27/OB's cabin length from cabin door to the step riser for entering the forward saloon/V-berth area is 10 feet. Also it should be noted that the distance from the vertical center line from the step riser to the windshield is twice that of the R-27 (Classic). This therefore gives even more cabin 'air'/'volume' room compared to the R-27 (Classic).

2) With the aft cushion of the V-berth removed the distance from the step riser to the lip of the cushion on top of the forward saloon's table is 6 feet. About 3 feet is used for the port side cloth closet, shelves and lower storage lockers. The forward saloons table's base sits on a raised flooring which extends aft making it easy for stepping up onto the port and starboard bunks and then from there its easy to slide around the table when it's raised. There can be three to four people sitting around the table, and maybe five if they are small children. The table rises very easily on its very sturdy 3-section piston/spring pedestal and is rock solid when raised with the piston support clamped. Converting from all cushions to having the table raised takes but a minute.

3) The port side V-bert bunk length is 7 feet. The starboard side V-berth bunk is 6'-6" long because part of the head enclosure has to be accommodated. The bow to the aft lip of the last center V--berth cushion is a good 7'-3" in length.

4) The V-berth area can be closed off for privacy with a curtain. It also can be closed off at the entrance with canvas curtains that attach to sides etc. This allows a space between the drawn curtain and the canvas to provide a completely private area outside the head enclosure with its door open.

5) The cockpit length is 6 feet as measured from the cabin door to the transom wall where the flip down double seat is. Measuring to the transom door and to the port side of the transom is another 8 to 12 inches.

6) Summing 1), 2), 3) and 5) we get; 10+7+3+7=27 feet.

7) The full length of the R-27/OB from bowsprit to the Yamaha F300 in its fully raised state measures close to 31.5 feet.

8) The R-27/OB has no rails along its cockpit gunnels making fishing and crabbing activities easy and far less chrome to deal with when brown rusting areas show up over time etc.

How do these measurements compare with your R-27 (Classic).... especially for the cabin length ? Also, keep in mind there's no aft head enclosure in the R-27/OB cabin. This actually improves on the cabin areas 'volume' as well as providing a much better 360º view of things around the boat vs. the R-27 (Classic) even with its DIY side mirrors. :) ;)

I have the planforms for both the R-27 (Classic) and the R-27/OB models. From these I can make an approximation for various measurement for the R-27 (Classic)

For the R-27 (Classic)

1) Cabin door to step riser leading to V-berth is 12 feet. Note that some 3 feet of this 12 feet is consumed by the starboard side head enclosure box and the port side cave entrance. Thus usable living area can be argued to be more like 9 feet.

2) The length of the cockpit from the cabin door to base of the transom's built in seat is 6 feet.

3) The V-berth bunk lengths are similar to what the R-27/OB has.

Considering 1) and 2) I would argue there's little difference in the cabin living areas between the R-27 (Classic) and the R-27/OB and that the R-27/OB has a far better all around 360º view of things and the perception of even more 'airy' space is improved with its numerous overhead atrium windows.

In addition, I would also say the R-27/OB has close to twice the storage space compared to the R-27 (Classic). A large part of this is obviously the cockpit's center locker which is just HUGE. It's a shame one cannot stuff a 4-person dinghy in there. :lol: Although if deflated it could be. :o

The one (and maybe a big one) issue for some people when considering the R-27/OB is where to stow/keep a full size 4-person dinghy. I've seen at least one R-23 with a full size dinghy on the cabin roof and have no idea how convenient this installation is for stowing and deploying the dinghy. What I do know is that standing on the R-27/OB's gunnels and reaching up to the cabin roof's cross bars is very easy and safer than what I experienced on our previous R-25 and suspect the same for the R-27 (Classic).

No matter.... post your cabin dimensions for your R-27 and let's compare.... thanks for the discussion as this topic is surely of interest to folks reviewing both R-27 models. :)

R-27 (Classic)
Image

R-27 Outboard
Image
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4273
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby Seaquel on Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:01 am

Barry,

Rather than measuring individual components, I would suggest that the total sum of a Ranger Tug is bigger than the individual parts, and that is what makes both R27 models outstanding designs – but also different in a more fundamental way. My initial comments were in response to the question of choices being offered by Ranger Tug. Happily, you and I are both equally thrilled with our respective boats, different as they are. I'm not trying to convince you that you would have preferred the R27 "Classic", and you won't convince me that I should change to the new RT27 OB, even though I acknowledge there are some things I really like, such as the reversible dinette seat with opening aft window to become part of the cockpit seating. Brilliant! But other aspects of the new model, such as gas vs. diesel and subsequently lacking a full swim platform for carrying a dinghy or taking space from the salon to enlarge the V-birth are not to my liking. So the point is not that one is “better” than the other: rather they are different and appeal to different missions.

I’m guessing we use our boats differently. If I were using my boat more for day use, fishing, or hopping from marina to marina and/or regularly traveling longer distances in a day, then I may share your preference for the R27 OB. However, I never use my boat for just a single day trip. I boat relatively close (San Juan’s) to where I launch (Anacortes) so speed is not critical, although my WOT of 20+ knots is faster than I need (but still fast enough to get ahead of most weather in a pinch). In my recent retirement I have come to appreciate what sailors have long known, that cruising is about the journey, not the destination. I find that the slower I go (within reason), the more relaxed I become. My previous gas-powered Sea Ray achieved a top speed close to 40mph on full plane, and I found too frequently this resulted in “white knuckle” driving, not daring to take my eyes off the water lest I risk hitting logs and other dead-heads (or unexpected boat wake). Besides, if I’m just cruising from a mooring buoy at Prevost Harbor on Stuart Island to dropping anchor at Echo Bay off Sucia Island, I can cover the 14 nautical miles in just one hour (@ easy cruise speed of 14K); and two hours if I take my time (@ 7K cruise) while eating lunch underway, taking pictures, etc. (I could also push the throttle and cover this distance in less than 45 minutes, but what’s the hurry?)

Also, the higher output alternator of our inboard diesel allows for adequate charging to our house batteries on relatively short trips, i.e., from Stuart to Sucia, so we can stay on anchor for a few days. And the larger fresh water tank (50 gal vs. 40 gal) also extends cruising capability. We once cruised two weeks in the Canadian Gulf Islands on a single tank of fresh water (barely)! All of this adds up to more limitless cruising “off the grid”, which is why/where we boat.

Further, if I decide to alter my course and take a hike to the lighthouse on Patos Island on my way to Sucia, I can drop anchor and deploy my dinghy and take a crew of four to shore with little effort, since our dinghy is mounted on the full swim platform on Weaver Davits and can be deployed in less than 60 seconds. In fact, by traveling more slowly, I frequently find myself making unexpected stops, dropping the dinghy, and exploring a cove or beach or a hike that was not the day’s final destination. On our way to Comox last summer for the Desolation Sound cruise, two of our highlights were un-planned visits that only happened because of how relatively effortless it is to anchor and deploy our dinghy: one was a lunch stop at Ruxton Island to search tide pools among a spectacular crushed seashell beach; the other was a stop at Sandy Island just south of Comox to explore amazing expansive sandy beaches. While other Ranger Tugs sped past us in a hurry to reach Comox, we discovered a unique beach littered with thousands of Sand Dollars. These spontaneous side-trips would never occur if I could not deploy my dinghy quickly and easily, something that is not compatible with outboard power. (This does require getting comfortable with anchoring, which comes with spending more time overnight away from marinas.)

Another benefit of the full swim platform is additional “deck” space when anchored. We use the swim step for many things just like one would use a backyard deck. In fact, the first thing I do once I’m anchored is to lower the dinghy, not necessarily to use it (I also stow a kayak and SUP board on the racks above the cabin), but because the dinghy, resting in the water (but attached to the swim step) further extends my “deck”. I can place kayak paddles there, assemble crab pots without occupying the cockpit space; and our dog likes to lie in the dinghy on a hot day. When we deploy both the kayak and SUP board the dinghy serves as a sort of extended “dock” from which we launch with room and ease. And on anchor for a few days, I can then use the dinghy for pulling crab pots without moving my tug. Trying to pull up crab pots from a kayak may not end well! ;)

And those stainless steel railings surrounding the cockpit area? Keeping them clean is a minor task relative to the utility that they provide us, including complete flexibility on where to best position the barbeque, a cutting table, outboard for the dinghy, plus unlimited bungee attachment points for securing folding chairs underway and attaching canvas screening on those really hot, bright sunny days when a bit more shade is desired than can be provided by the bimini. And of course the railings provide convenient hand-holds everywhere, including additional tie-off points for my kayak/SUP board.

With the season changing from Summer to Fall, we will continue to cruise and anchor out, relying increasingly on our diesel heater to keep cozy and comfortable in our floating cabin. I also prefer the seamless single-source design of using diesel for both propulsion AND heating, since I don’t have to worry about running out of my heating source. This also reduces the risk of foul fuel in a separate, small 5 gallon diesel tank used in the R27 OB that is more likely to sit for long periods of non-use and collect moisture or bacteria, the worst thing for diesel fuel.

All of the above makes little difference if you are primarily using the boat for day use, or even overnighting at marinas with shore power. But to cruise in the style of larger boats, and have the relative capabilities to cruise “off the grid” while seeking remote anchorages, the R27 “Classic” is truly unique in a package that is easily trailerable. As noted before, neither Nordic Tug or American Tug offer a trailerable tug, and now neither does Ranger Tug. Our choices just became significantly more limited, which is my point. Yes, we could consider the R29 or R31, but we would give up significant trailering ease, not to mention it would no longer fit in the garage we built for Seaquel (and at far greater cost). With trailering a bigger chore, my concern is we would actually spend more and boat less, given that our preference is to keep her garaged rather than moored.

Lastly, diesel will hold its value longer, a simple fact proven in the marketplace whether justified or not. And as long as the R27 “Classic” is out of production, it will likely hold its value even more since it will become impossible to find a new trailerable diesel tug now that Ranger Tug no longer makes them. From that perspective, I can share your enthusiasm for the popularity of the new RT27 OB, because I believe the scarcity of a well maintained R27 "Classic" will further hold it's value. Not that we have any plans to sell: like you, we enjoy our Ranger Tug immensely and plan to hold on to her for a very long time – after all, she is now almost irreplaceable! :D
Mark & Peggy Leopold
Seaquel - 2013 R27 "Classic"
Volvo D3 200HP
Previous power boats:
- Sea Ray Sundancer 25, Bayliner Motoryacht 38, Bayliner Ciera 21
Current sailboats:
- Gig Harbor Mellonseed 17, Laser Sailboat 14, Walker Bay RID275
Seaquel
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:25 am
City: Anacortes
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: Ranger RIB260, SeaEagle RazorLite 393RL, Tower SUP
Vessel Name: Seaquel
MMSI Number: 367999120

Re: Did factory stop building the R21-EC?

Postby baz on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:45 am

Mark:

My previous posting was an opportunity for having a precise set of measurements for both R-27 models so that others here trying to come to terms with the differences could make an informed decision.

Between the two of us we've pretty much covered all the other aspects of each model's design attributes.

The bigger cabin issue, bigger V-berth issue, head enclosure location, storage space and dinghy installation capability issue are quite likely the major differences people will be interested in.

The diesel inboard vs. gasoline outboard provides a totally different aspect to what the two R-27 models can be used for and fall into a category of their own with a person most likely having a strong opinion for one or the other.

I would suggest to people who favor inboard diesel and the traditional tug-look be comforted by the fact that there are many used R-21EC, R-25 (classic), R-25SC and R-27 (classic) models to be found these days and likely to continue over some number of years to come. The biggest item will be the selling price of the older models vs. the selling prices for the newer models, along with warranty expirations.
Barry, Gill & (Jake Wire Hair Fox Terrier)
SOLD - 2010 R-25 LAXEY
Traded 2016 Ranger Gray R-21EC LAXEY to Ranger Tugs.
R-27/OB, LAXEY, Hull Midnight Blue
Edmonds, WA
baz
 
Posts: 4273
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:28 am
City: Edmonds
State/Province: WA
Ranger/Cutwater Model: R-27
Non-Ranger Model: 2018 R-27 w/F300 outboard
Vessel Name: LAXEY
MMSI Number: 368005270

Previous

Return to Ask the Ranger Factory

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests