Using main motor vs. kicker motor for fishing on R25/OB?

[baz]

Subject: Using main motor vs. kicker motor for fishing on R25/OB?

I'm struggling with the option to include a kicker motor for my R25/OB for fishing activities.

What is the lowest speed the R25/OB's 250HP Yamaha will push the boat along at?
What is the lowest and highest speed the 9.9HP Yamaha kicker motor will push the boat along at ?

I know run running the main 250HP motor at low RPMs is not conducive to the motor's longevity as these Yamaha OBs do like to run at 4000+ RPMs for efficiency, motor's health and longevity. So I'm very hesitant to think using the 250HP motor is a good option for fishing (trolling for Salmon that is).

The kicker motor does add weight to the stern and possible encourages the boat to list a tad to port, but this can be compensated easily by stowing heavy objects on the starboard side, plus the helm is situated on the starboard side.

The kicker motor positioning is such that its rear is aligned with the rear of the main OB motor so no additional overall length is increased for the boat, and stern in docking or Med docking is accommodated without damaging the kicker motor.

Steering for the kicker motor is performed wirelessly, as I understand it, so this presents no real issue for me.... set the engine's throttle and steer away and fish/troll leisurely, right ?

Running the main 250HP motor at low speed for extended times seems to me a bad thing to do. However, the kicker option does add some $5,500 to the purchase cost. So this aspect could mean the extra maintaemnce of running the 250HP motor at extended times is somewhat compensated for.

The kicker motor obviously provides the 2nd engine for emergencies, but these Yamaha engines are terribly reliable from what I've read.

The kicker motor addition does restrict the walk-around swim step access somewhat as well.

Extra weight that the kicker motor adds to the stern will mean time to planning might be affected as well as fuel burn for the main motor.

Kicker motor will also require its own maintenance costs.

How have other R25/OB owners addressed these issues/options I wonder ?

Thanks... 🙂

 

[Kimberly Dawn]

Barry, our Suzuki 300hp main on our R27-OB had a troll switch that allowed the motor to be used for fishing... I never used it, not even to test it.

I had a Suzuki 9.9 EFI kicker that was a work horse for fishing. Typically, a kicker motor is affectionately known as an hour eater.

In all the boats I've bought and sold, they've all had kickers to accommodate fishing. When selling the boat, I've never been asked about how many hours were on the kicker... hour eater!

I'd spend the $5500... it will pay for itself keeping the hours on your 250 lower!

Bob
Kimberly Dawn

 

[Nwdiver]

I’m interested in how slow the Yamaha outboards will go as well. I have a cutwater c-288 (dual Yamaha 250) on order and they don’t offer a kicker option. Even an after market kicker might not work as the swim step wraps around the outboards on port and starboard. On the plus side, I understand the Yamaha outboards can reduce speed by putting itself in and out of gear quickly, I think the minimum is in gear 10% of the time. I guess I will find out sometime next year

 

[Annie Time]

Main reason for a kick is to not put hours on the main. Remember 100hr service cost. If you troll 50% time then you get more fishing time its a lot cheaper to service the 9.9.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[knotflying]

The Yamaha has a trolling mode that permits the RPM's to go below 800. I couldn't tell you what the minimum speed is that you will get. As you know lots of factors will affect speed

 

[The lyons den]

My r23 with 200hp trolls at 2 to 3mph. I would hazard to guess that the larger boat with larger engine will be very similar. I set the Yamaha engine to troll.

 

[Catch22]

The 200 on my R23 will troll well for salmon and trout at 2 to 4 MPH. That being said,I do have a 9.9 kicker that provides trolling speeds of less than 1 MPH for walleye and other species I chase. Proper stowing of gear and the additional AC battery in the starboard locker help offset the kicker weight.. Having a redundant power source and reducing hours on the big motor are most likely the real determiners for you. I anticipate the cost of my kicker will be offset by maintenance and residual resale. Good luck with your decision process.

 

[bob daily]

Mr. Bas, not to sound negative or disrespectful, but I see your going on your fifth boat (Ranger) since 2009! That's a average of 2.5 to 3 years per boat. What was your average hours per year? With the assumption that you will use the boat about like previous, I doubt you will put an excessive amount of hours on the motor. At our age why not let the kids worry about resale value at that big yard sale when the time comes! Enjoy your boat and hope you catch that big one! Bob

 

[baz]

Mr. Bas, not to sound negative or disrespectful, but I see your going on your fifth boat (Ranger) since 2009! That's a average of 2.5 to 3 years per boat. What was your average hours per year? With the assumption that you will use the boat about like previous, I doubt you will put an excessive amount of hours on the motor. At our age why not let the kids worry about resale value at that big yard sale when the time comes! Enjoy your boat and hope you catch that big one! Bob

Thanks.... Points well taken. 🙂

 

[baz]

Does the Yamaha 250HP OB come stock with Trolling feature ? If so, how well does it work for you ? Thanks.

Since I'm having auto pilot on the R25/OB (had same on my RT29 CB with it's low-speed feature when fishing/trolling and liked it a lot), I'm moving to my solution to not have the kicker even with its remote wireless steering and manual speed throttle setting.

Having the Auto pilot will mean the R25/OB can be used to configure Auto Heading Hold, Auto Zig Zag, and other course adjustments using the Auto pilot's remote control, whereas all this would have to be done manually using the kicker with its remote wireless steering control. On my R29 CB when trolling I used its Auto pilot's Heading Hold feature primarily, with the odd/infrequent Heading Hold changes being made.

The important aspect with this is that I need to know if the Yamaha 250HP OB's Trolling feature will provide me with from 1 to 4 mph as I became accustomed to using my R29 CB's low-speed feature.

I gleaned this from a website that describes the Yamaha Trolling Control feature...
Variable Trolling Control
Yamaha’s variable trolling control allows the skipper to precisely adjust the engine’s idling speed from 600 to 1000 RPM in 50 RPM increments. The ability to finely tune the trolling speed allows fisherman to perfect their lure presentation when chasing different species of fish.

So the question comes down to does the R25/OB with its Yamaha 250HP motor's Trolling feature providing 600 RPM give me the ~1 mph in calm waters, and does the 1000 RPM give me the ~4 mph in calm waters ?

On my R29 CB using Auto pilot when I placed the engine into Slow-Speed mode I could easily setup and maintain just about any speed between 1.5 mph (without stalling the Auto pilot's controller pump) on up to 4 mph in the various sea conditions I encountered over a 2.5 year period in my PNW area waters.

 

[Mike and Sarah]

Hello Barry,
You and I first met with a phone conversation about the the slow troll mode on the D4. With your input we had the slow troll added to our new R31cb. We found it to work well for salmon fishing/catching. We put a lot salmon in the boat this summer and still learning how to use the slow mode the best. Thank You
As for the troll mode on the R25 I’m sure it operates the same as our R27 with the 300 Yamaha. We did not find it useful as it only controls the rpm at 50 rpm slots starting from base idle speed. At base idle we never got down below 2.5 mph. The troll mode does not slip a clutch like the D4. If we tried fishing with the big motor we would have to go in and out of gear to keep the speed where we liked it. I believe the Yamaha troll mode works better for warm water fish species as they troll a lot faster than we do for salmon.
Our r27 came with the 9.9 kicker with a tie bar to the big motor. That worked great as we could use auto pilot for steering. On the 25 I believe it uses the panther steering system that is independent of the big motor. So you steer with a remote but don’t get autopilot option.
We also added the trollmaster trolling remote system to the 9.9. That allowed us to control the throttle infinitely with a remote. When we catch a fish you can tap a button to slow down while netting and tap again to go back to the speed you where going after netting the fish.
Knowing how you want to fish for salmon I would recommend the 9.9 option with the panther system and add the troll master too. Yes the boat will have a port list even if you try to balance the boat. The list never would go away on our 27. (Probably related to the 3 batteries on the port side too.

 

[baz]

Mike & Sarah:

Thank you for your feedback and glad I was able to convince you about the Volvo Penta slow-speed feature for Salmon fishing.

The Volvo Penta low-speed ECU's feature is awesome IMO. With the 2:1 engine RPM to prop RPM means the prop turns at 350 RPM with the engine running at idle speed of 700 RPM. The slow-speed feature then allows the prop RPM to be adjusted further to attain very low speeds close to 1 kt with a max of around 4 kt at which point the slow-speed feature disconnects. 'Tis important that the ECU software be installed and configured properly to obtain the desired trolling speeds. It took me 2 or 3 sea trails with a Volvo technician onboard to tweak the software to meet my requirements.

Your experience with the main OB trolling for you R27/OB is invaluable to me, so thank you for that. At first glance the Yamaha 250HP trolling feature looks attractive but with your inputs it's obvious it has limitations.

I'm wondering if having the kicker motor on the R25/OB providing the necessary trolling speeds, along with the main 250HP lowered and acting as a rudder the auto pilot can be used for steering the boat. I will ask Andrew if having the Yamaha 250HP engine lowered and not running but acting simply as a rudder, can the auto pilot be engaged to assist with steering?

Thanks also for the other feature you mention: troll master trolling remote system, that seems a very useful and convenient option to have.

As an aside, I was hoping I could have RT install a white-looking 250HP Yamaha OB on my R25/OB model instead of the gray casing model that seems to be stock. The white would make the OB look less obvious as its color would blend in better with the white-look rear face of the transom. If RT cannot accommodate my request I could I suppose have the casing painted professional to be white. 🙂 😀

...and about the list to port due to the 120 lb kicker motor... I will place my down rigger on starboard side, and keep my crab pot Brutus pot puller in the starboard locker and the two of them weigh in at around 70 lbs to help compensate the list to port due to the kicker and batteries.

 

[Nwdiver]

This is off the Yamaha web site for the f250. I don’t know if the outboards we are getting support this, it is relatively new feature. I am pretty sure cutwater is not supporting helm master at this time, but maybe we can convince them to support it.

PRECISE AND CONVENIENT TROLLING: Speed Control with Pattern Shift automatically bumps engines into and out of gear to achieve sub-idle trolling speeds. Helm Master EX with Autopilot even allows you to set a target speed, as low as 0.25 mph. This cues the system to auto-adjust RPM and shifting to achieve that target speed—all while adjusting for conditions such as wind or current. This provides incredible control of trolling speed—from in-gear idling to slowing to a crawl.

 

[Mike and Sarah]

This is off the Yamaha web site for the f250. I don’t know if the outboards we are getting support this, it is relatively new feature. I am pretty sure cutwater is not supporting helm master at this time, but maybe we can convince them to support it.

PRECISE AND CONVENIENT TROLLING: Speed Control with Pattern Shift automatically bumps engines into and out of gear to achieve sub-idle trolling speeds. Helm Master EX with Autopilot even allows you to set a target speed, as low as 0.25 mph. This cues the system to auto-adjust RPM and shifting to achieve that target speed—all while adjusting for conditions such as wind or current. This provides incredible control of trolling speed—from in-gear idling to slowing to a crawl.

Wow this would be awesome. I’d bet it wouldn’t cost much more than the low speed option for the D4. Totally worth it if fishing.
Only thing is I would rather put the hours on a kicker motor. But that being said we will be racking up plenty of hours on our D4 Volvo fishing. Not much option for a kicker with the dingy on the back. Everything is a trade off.
Our 7 year old fishing boat has 350 main engine hours and at least 450 hours on the kicker fishing.

 

[baz]

Nwdiver: Thank so much for that info. I recall reading it recently as well.

With this information I've chatted with RT this morning and I'm told the new Yamaha 250HP motors they are receiving do come with the new trolling feature Speed Control with Pattern Shift, and it works quite well per what Tim Bates at RT said in background as I was talking with Andrew.

RT does not install the Helm Master EX as that is a more complex feature using a joy stick of some sort, and IMO more of a useful feature for docking in calm waters etc.

At this point I'm now leaning quite strongly to having just the main Yamaha F250 OB motor, and abandoning the option to have the kicker motor.

This means...

1) I'll give up the 2nd engine feature for emergencies.

2) Having to put up with more low speed engine hours on the F250. No matter, these Yamaha OBs can deliver a whopping 8000-9000 engine hrs before needing any real health checks. That number of useful engine hrs delivers anywhere between 30 to 50 years of engine life IMO for my use pattern, and can live with that expectation without concerns. The Alaskan fishing folk beat the crap out of these Yamaha outboards and they simple just keep running. I've seen then in for service at my local Marina's Yamaha service shop and they seem totally busted up with chunks of the casing missing, yet I'm told by the Yamaha engine technician -- we repair and they just keep on running - they are very tough awesome engines.

3) I gain more real estate on the swim platform for netting the fish catch(es). 😉

4) I should be able to not have any issue with a port side list due to kicker on port side.

5) Some $6,000 in savings on the purchase price (some $500 is sales tax savings here in my WA state). The $6,000 is equivalent to some 1,500 gallons of gasoline at $4/gal, or pays for my covered slip for 1 yr, 10 yrs worth for annual servicing the F250 motor, and the list could go on... 🙂

6) Can use auto pilot when trolling.

7) Mandatory F250 servicing will be required regardless of engine hrs on the F250. I would do this any rate.

8) No servicing for the kicker motor will be necessary.

9) Will have to cut the F250 engine speed at the helm when netting a catch, rather than using the kicker motor speed control remote. An inconvenience at best.

10) Less weight on the stern without the kicker is beneficial for fuel burn, and possibly time to get up on plane.

11) A cleaner rear end. 😉

Off topic here....
1) Yamaha charges an extra $2000 for a white vs. gray casing for the F250.
2) RT does not offer the white casing option for the F250.
3) Having a gray casing repainted professionally to be white will cost around $5,000.
4) A new order for a new F250 is backlogged by at least a year.
5) I new F250 ordered today will cost around $22,000 before any discounting.

 

[Nwdiver]

Yea, that means mine should have it as well, thanks for checking. Only 5ish more months left until I get my boat 😀

 

[Mike and Sarah]

Barry. Your above post sounds like a winner. Also no worries of fuel going bad in the kicker while it sets either.
I look forward to seeing some picture of salmon on your new R25 next year.
Now to just get the motor in White!

 

[baz]

Barry. Your above post sounds like a winner. Also no worries of fuel going bad in the kicker while it sets either.
I look forward to seeing some picture of salmon on your new R25 next year.
Now to just get the motor in White!

The white option is not offered by RT. They just want to keep their relationship with Yamaha simple so all Yamaha engines ordered by RT are gray cased.

Yamaha charges an extra $2,000 for white vs. grey.

To have a gray case professionally repainted to be white will cost around $5,000 so I was told by my local Yamaha dealer today.

P.S. I lived in Woodinville for 22 years before moving and downsizing to Edmonds. 🙂

 

[baz]

For the record... I chose to drop the kicker option from my R25/OB order today on the basis that the newer Yamaha F250 engines provided a better trolling feature than they had before, People I've discussed this with agreed with me the newer F250 engine will do a good job for fishing Salmon and trolling in my PNW area waters.

Coming from the RT29 CB with its Volvo Penta low-speed ECU/software control that cost RT factory install at around $2,500 and around $3,500-$4,000 as an after thought performed by a Volvo engine technician (that I opted for), the integrated and similar trolling feature offered by the newer Yamaha F250 at zero additional cost is a no-brainer decision for me. 🙂

Thanks to all here who have participated in this discussion of main motor vs. kicker motor for fishing/trolling. 🙂

Now I'm reviewing my options for the full cockpit enclosure for my R25/OB with Hero Red hull - The Sunbrella Jokey Red 😱 canvas color is very appealing vs. the traditional Toast colored canvas that RT uses. 🙂

 

[Nwdiver]

I finally found a video shows the difference between troll mode and pattern shift. This might clear up some of the confusion about whether you can fish with the main motor or not. Not sure what model/years of ranger/cutwater are equipped with this

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1237634873341727