Alternator, ACR and battery monitor

[Hamster]

I'm a bit perplexed on my R23. My house batteries died so I replaced them. At the same time, I installed a battery monitor (Balmar SG200).

My issue is that I do not see any power going into the house batteries on the monitor when cruising. Should I? I do see the power going in when connected to shore power (monitor showed 20 amps coming in when connected).

On a recent trip, my State of Charge (SOC) when cruising at full RPMs for 1.5 hours actually went down. The monitor was showing negative amp draws while cruising, too because the Garmin, VHF and refrigerator were drawing power.

Do others with battery monitors, either Balmar or Victron or other, see that the amps coming from your alternator show up on your monitor when cruising? If so, is it possible that my ACR isn't working to transfer the power from the engine battery to the house battery while cruising? (I did turn the power switch to parallel several times to reset the ACR, if that might have been the problem.)

 

[BB marine]

As long as the house battery bank stays above 10 +/- .5 Volts the ACR will not disable the charging to the house bank. Here are the operating perimeters for the ACR's to close and charge the battery banks Thruster and House.

Engine battery starts the engine. When the engine battery reaches a Voltage of 13 V or higher after a couple of minutes the ACR's will close as long as the Battery banks are above 10 V or close to that +/- .5 V . When the ACR's close the engine battery /Thruster Battery/House battery bank are now in parallel. When in parallel the engine charging system is charging the banks equally. If the engine battery while being charged has a voltage 12.75 V for 30 seconds it will open the ACR's and the alternator will only provide charging to the engine battery. The engine battery must have a voltage of 13V or higher for the ACR's to close again.

The ACR's have a Green light that will turn on when the ACR is closed. The ACR has a small ground terminal 12 ga wire yellow that must be attached to the correct terminal ( Ground). If it is attached to terminal (start isolation )or ( LED light) it will not turn on. This has happened many times to Ranger and Cutwater owners. It is an easy installation mistake to make.

An easy troubleshoot to confirm the ACR is functioning properly is.

Using a VOA meter. Set to DC Voltage 20V Check the Voltage at the engine battery, Thruster battery, House battery bank.

Now start the engine. increase the RPM to 1500 rpm let the engine run for a few minutes. Check the battery voltage at the engine battery. Once it reaches and maintains 13 V for 2 minutes or 13.6 V for 30 seconds the ACR should close. Now check the voltage at the thruster battery it should show an increase compared to the original reading without the engine running. Next check the House bank It should also show an increased Voltage. After a few more minutes the battery voltages should all read the same. The voltages have stabilized and the batteries are all parallel. If you are not seeing this then check the voltage readings at the terminals at the ACR'S. Attach the red meter lead to a terminal on the ACR place the black lead to the terminal with the 12ga yellow wire marked Ground.( read the voltage.) Now move the red meter lead to the other terminal on the ACR. The reading should be the same if the ACR is closed and the engine alternator is charging.

Engine battery must show a voltage of 13V 2 minutes 13.6 30 seconds. If it doesn't the house and thruster banks will not be charged.

https://d2pyqm2yd3fw2i.cloudfront.net/f ... 170140.pdf

 

[Hamster]

Thanks, Brian. I just took my boat back to storage after letting the batteries go down a little over night. Before I plugged into shore power, one of the ACRs that goes to the thruster bank had a green light on but the other had no light. When I plugged into shore power, the second ACR clicked in after 30 seconds and showed the green light. See picture. gallery2.php?g2_itemId=79256

I will check the ACR lights at some point when I can get the engine running in water. But, with green lights on both ACRs, why wouldn't my battery monitor recognize the power coming in from the engine to restore the house bank. It appears that it works fine on shore power.

 

[Capt’nKarl]

I want to thank Brian for his insight, knowledge and willingness to share his knowledge. He’s on the loop enjoying the freedom we all want yet takes the time to respond to others. If I ever meet him dinner and drinks are on me. Thank you.

 

[BB marine]

I want to thank Brian for his insight, knowledge and willingness to share his knowledge. He’s on the loop enjoying the freedom we all want yet takes the time to respond to others. If I ever meet him dinner and drinks are on me. Thank you.

Thank You for your comment. We just finished out 2021 winter cruising. Our Loop segment has been completed. I just left your area last week on my way back to Chicago. My family has a house close to Perdido Key. We spent a week there before ending our trip and arriving back in Chicago. PORT-A-GEE went into storage for a couple of months so I can do my yearly maintenance and get it ready for a another year of cruising. We plan on going back Gulf Shores to complete the loop segment Panhandle to Tarpon Springs next fall. Maybe we can have a couple docktails then!

 

[Hamster]

The folks from Balmar suggested that I might still have a negative from the start battery connected directly to the house battery. Sure enough. This is how it was originally configured at delivery from Ranger. Rather than take the ground to the bus bar, they tied the grounds of the batteries together.

In reviewing the literature of Blue Sea for the ACR (https://d2pyqm2yd3fw2i.cloudfront.net/f ... 170140.pdf) and Balmar for the boat monitor (https://balmar.net/sg200-battery-monitor/), everyone has the grounds going directly to the bus bar.

Is this an accepted practice from Ranger to tie the grounds from the start battery to the house battery, or was it a bad install at the beginning? And, if tied together, does this affect the recharge of the house batteries from the engine while cruising at full RPM?

 

[BB marine]

It is completely acceptable to have all the batteries daisy chained with the ground. It has to be in order to use the the engine to house parallel switch (Crossover) When the ACR's are closed the HOUSE, THRUSTER, ENGINE battery banks are all in a parallel configuration. Parallel configuration is all Positives are connected and all negatives are connected. Has far as using the bus bar for each terminal connection this just leaves an extra connection. The more terminal connection points the more places for loose or corroded connections. Both are acceptable but I prefer the daisy chain. The only time the buss would be more practical is when one battery bank is on one side of the boat and the other banks on the other. My opinion.

The battery grounds all connected together will not effect the engine alternator charging the engine battery. Once the engine battery is charged to a point that the voltage reaches 13.0 + V then the ACR's close and the House and Thruster will start to be charged in a Parallel configuration to the engine battery. I highly recommend checking the system with a VOA meter. Check for a voltage increase to all battery banks. If you see a voltage increase to all the banks I would question the wiring configuration to the Balmar battery monitor.

Using a VOA meter. Set to DC Voltage 20V Check the Voltage at the engine battery, Thruster battery, House battery bank.

Now start the engine. increase the RPM to 1500 rpm let the engine run for a few minutes. Check the battery voltage at the engine battery. Once it reaches and maintains 13 V for 2 minutes or 13.6 V for 30 seconds the ACR should close. Now check the voltage at the thruster battery it should show an increase compared to the original reading without the engine running. Next check the House bank It should also show an increased Voltage. After a few more minutes the battery voltages should all read the same. The voltages have stabilized and the batteries are all parallel. If you are not seeing this then check the voltage readings at the terminals at the ACR'S. Attach the red meter lead to a terminal on the ACR place the black lead to the terminal with the 12ga yellow wire marked Ground.( read the voltage.) Now move the red meter lead to the other terminal on the ACR. The reading should be the same if the ACR is closed and the engine alternator is charging.

 

[Red Raven]

Hamster,

The Ballmar SG200 meter includes a shunt to measure the current into and out of the house bank. The shunt must be in the negative path between the negative of the house bank an ALL other negative connections (including engine and thruster batteries). The shunt has two terminals, only one goes to the house negative side of the battery bank. No other negatives go to this side of the shunt. The other side of the shunt goes to the negative buss bar (or daisy chain) where all other negative connections are made. This is the “System” negative. The factory setup does not include a shunt and thus some of the negative connections may go directly to the house negative which need to be moved to the “System” negative. This arrangement is shown in the Balmar link you included above and likely why Balmar said to move the start battery negative. (Move to the negative buss bar on other side of the shunt.)

I hope this helps.

Curt

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

To answer your question, I see a little battery discharge while underway. 2021 R-23.

I did a video explaining my installation here:

https://youtu.be/3AT0mBg6cGg


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[Hamster]

The factory setup does not include a shunt and thus some of the negative connections may go directly to the house negative which need to be moved to the “System” negative. This arrangement is shown in the Balmar link you included above and likely why Balmar said to move the start battery negative. (Move to the negative buss bar on other side of the shunt.)

I hope this helps.

Curt

Thanks, Curt. That is what the reps say from Balmar.

But, looking at CruisingElvinRay's video, it appears that his starter ground is still jumped to the House Battery. Your video shows consumption, but at least what I was experiencing without total diagnostics is that it wasn't showing input while cruising. I do show input when on shore power, so why not while cruising? I’m suspecting now that it is because the ground from the shore power is in a different path with the shunt as compared to the starter engine battery. I'd love to hear whether you see the positive power coming in while cruising with your batteries grounded in that daisy chain situation.

My house bank should have shown being filled when cruising for 1.5 hours at 4600 RPMs, but instead showed consumption only. What is not known yet, is if that is just a monitor display issue due to the ground jumper need for the Balmar, or if I am not getting my house replenished.

As Brian noted, I need to do some more testing to see what is going on.

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

Interesting questions. I can tell when my refrigerator is running while underway based on power draw,l change. Everything else is pretty constant. With platter, autopilot, stereo, phone chargers running, etc... I didn’t expect to see positive numbers compare to shore power where I’m getting about 300 watts average out of the charger (this is based on watching the Honda generator app as I top off batteries while at anchor).


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[CruisingElvinRay]

I have an idea. I’m going to disconnect from shore power, turn off the house battery, then use the trim up down on the engine to draw power from the engine battery. I will watch for a change in power draw on the battery monitor. If I don’t see any, that would indicate to me that the engine bank is not affecting the battery monitor.


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[BB marine]

It seems as trouble shooting is going in two different directions. Are you troubleshooting the monitor or charging system?

It is best to proof that the batteries and charging system are functioning.

Shore power charging. I will assume that you have a Promariner Pronautic 1220 charger ( I'm using this because it was the standard install) This charger has a max capacity of 20 amps. It has three outputs For a 3 battery bank install. Battery 1 engine ,Battery 2 Thruster, Battery 3 House. When using the shore power battery charger each bank is being charged individually based on need of charge. The charger determines the charging needs (smart processor) This process gets interrupted as soon as one of the banks reaches 13V for 2 minutes and the other 2 banks have a battery voltage above 10 volts which they would with the charger on. (unless a bank was in full discharge 9.5 V or less). When one bank reaches 13V then the ACR closes. The ACR's are not polarity sensitive Example: Thruster bank reaches 13V before the engine bank The ACR connected to the thruster closes and now the engine and thruster are parallel. When the engine and thruster are connected the voltage stabilizes and when the engine battery maintains 13V 2 minutes then the ACR at the House bank will close and all batteries are connected in a parallel configuration. The Promariner charger is now charging the battery banks as on bank and charging the needs of all batteries. At this point the charger could show a max output of 20 amps.

Using the monitor which is designed to show charge amps and discharge amp rates of the house bank only.


Engine Charging. When the engine is started the engine battery gets a quick discharge and the ACR's open. The engine alternator starts charging the engine cranking battery. The Yamaha has a max output of 50 amps. This charging capacity is based on the engine speed the output capacity increases with rpm. When the engine cranking battery reaches 13 V 2 minutes the ACR's close again the Engine, Thruster, and House banks are now in a Parallel configuration.

The monitor should only show house bank discharge leaving the monitors CABLE terminal. Based on how I interrupted the install.

"If you have a shore-power charger, inverter or inverter-charger, they may have both a Positive and Negative cable directly connected to the battery. The positive cable can stay, but the negative cable must be moved to a position at or before the “CABLE” stud on the SmartShunt".

I'm not familiar with this Monitor. I'm old school when it comes to house battery discharge and use capacity. I have a general idea of my battery usage. I know what my battery capacity is. I monitor my battery bank Voltage. I know when I drop the hook I have fully charged banks form the engine charging system which I monitor as I'm cruising. My engine battery along with my house and thruster bank will sit at 14.1 V once all are charged usually a couple hours of running. When I drop the hook I check the house bank once stabilized it reads about 13V. I have the refrigerator, a small 12V freezer, Chart plotter for my anchor drag ( I turn the depth transducer off) a fan in the V berth for sleeping and my C-pap sleeping, the fresh water pump, anchor light. When I get up in the morning I look at the battery voltage. If I see 12.4 or less It is time to start the generator ( Honda 2200). The shore power charger is tuned on and the outlets are tuned on. As long as the generator is run-in coffee, toast, and breakfast is made using the generators power resource.

The point of this long post. Confirm you have a good charge system going to each battery bank. Shore power and engine charging. Know what your battery capacities are ( old school way) Install a monitor to confirm your calculations. Don't install a monitor to do your calculations. Know the system and use the monitor as your confirmation to your calculations. My opinion

 

[Hamster]

I appreciate the trouble shooting. I am fairly convinced, subject to testing, that the issue is the negative jumper cable from the engine start battery to the house battery is in the wrong position when using a battery monitor - at least the Balmar.

Here is the test for Cruising Elvin Ray with your Victron and same battery configuration as mine: rather than look for power consumption, draw your house bank down. Start your engine and see if it shows positive amps coming into the house on your monitor. That is what I don’t see when cruising, leading me to wonder whether any power was coming out of the Yamaha OB to replenish my house bank.

The reason I added a monitor is because my original house batteries failed within two years. There could have been a couple of reasons for that. But now that I have the monitor, I am wondering if my assumption that my house bank was getting charged from my Yamaha OB while cruising after a night on the hook and fishing all day with electronics on was in error. Is this the result of how the batteries are cabled, the alternator in the OB, failed ACR, or bad engine starter battery? More testing to scratch some of these off the list is needed, but I’m going to start with changing the ground cable from the engine start battery going to the common bus rather than the house bank.

Here is a link to wiring a Blue Sea ACR. Look at the diagram for OBs with a battery switch, which is what my R23 is. Every wiring diagram I can see tells me that the engine start battery should be grounded to the common bus, which is not how my boat is wired from the factory.
https://d2pyqm2yd3fw2i.cloudfront.net/f ... 170140.pdf

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

I think the question is whether you engine can output enough energy to meet your electrical demand while underway AND charge the batteries at the same time. I don’t think the Yamaha 200s alternator can output the amps required to do what you are expecting.

As to the battery monitor, it will be interesting to see your results.


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[Cutwater28GG]

the Yamaha 200 has output alternator capacity between 35-50amps depending on RPM

 

[Hamster]

I think the question is whether you engine can output enough energy to meet your electrical demand while underway AND charge the batteries at the same time. I don’t think the Yamaha 200s alternator can output the amps required to do what you are expecting.

As noted, the Yamaha actually should put out more amps (50) than the charger (20), especially while running at 4600 RPM for 1.5 hours. When my house bank was down to 70% SOC and I turned on my shore power charger, I saw the 20 amps coming into the house bank. I also saw it taper down when getting closer to full charge, so the charger was working exactly as expected and the battery monitor was showing it. I don't see any contribution from my engine when cruising.

Since the shore power charger grounds are in a different position relative to the shunt than the engine start battery, that is why I am thinking that the ground jumper needs to move off the house from the starter engine battery and onto the common bus. I should have seen amps coming in while cruising, not just amps going out. My draw was minimal: only Garmin plotter, VHF and refrigerator, so the 50 amps coming in should have more than offset the <10 amps going out and the house bank replenished if everything is working properly.

Owning a boat is so much fun. Always a riddle to figure out.

 

[Red Raven]

Hamster, you are correct. The start battery negative needs to be moved to the system negative buss bar. The battery monitor uses the shunt to measure current in an out of the house bank. If you bypass the shunt the battery monitor cannot measure current running through the bypass. Only the house negative should be connected on one side of the shunt and all other negatives connected on the other side. That way all current running in or out of the house bank goes through the shunt which is what you want.

Curt

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

How does current going in run through the shunt?


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[CruisingElvinRay]

So, I waited until full darkness to make sure solar didn’t interfere. I disconnected from shore power and turned the house bank battery switch to off. Battery monitor, predictably, went to zero amps.

I raised and lowered the trim on the outboard 3x. I could see voltage drop on the engine battery, but amps on the house bank remained at zero the entire time.


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