Battery charger only charging one bank?

jswhal

Active member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
43
Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
Non-Fluid Motion Model
Cutwater 28
Vessel Name
Sea Glass
My house battery was dead - below 10V, while plugged into shore power. The battery charger self tests OK. When I turn on the combine switch, the charger starts charging at 20A and the house battery comes up to 12.5V. The two columns of LEDs that indicate what type of battery is selected only shows me one column at a time - I can cycle through all of the lights in both columns, but only one or the other is lit when I press the Enter button to select.

If I turn the combine switch off, the voltage immediately starts dropping below 12V. All the batteries are only 7 months old. Does this sound like the output of the charger is bad for the house bank? It's a ProMariner charger on a 2014 C-28.
 
I never move my combine switch - its just there in case you have a flat engine battery for starting.

the charger should be charging all batteries without any modifications. could it be a failure in one of the ACR relays?
 
While checking the fuse in the charger line, I found that when I replaced the batteries 7 months ago, I didn't connect that wire to the battery. Now I'm wondering how they were charged during that time. What's the purpose of the two "charging relays"?
 
Kinds make me wonder. If I put have a multi battery charger like we have on the tugs, each bank has their own charge circuit. If the acr senses charging it would combine them ignore by the fact that batteries are being individually charged. If the battery chargers are running then the acts should be disabled. I am not sure I made that observation
 
Hello,

Your batteries were charge while running your Engine. The ACR's are to isolate the batteries while starting the engine or using the house or thruster batteries. While charging the batteries the ACR's will combine all batteries to charge. but also the link that was posted here shows how they work too. Glad it was a simple fix for you 🙂

thank you,
 
these boats have a lot of wiring. there is a chance a mistake was made.

I recently had all batteries discharge when the shore power cable fell out. this shouldnt happen. either the ACR failed at its task or I have a power draw on the engine battery as well or something else happened...

I have a sneaky suspicion that my solar charger is keeping the volts look artificially high which the ACR sees and closes the acr relay: when in fact the house batteries are under charged. this tricks the acr to close when in fact it causes Amp hours to flow from engine to house battery draining the engine battery. if its not this then I have a hidden slow discharge drain on my engine battery...
my propane solenoid might be wired to my engine battery as well...

this probably isnt your issue but wanted to flag as a potential area to investigate.
 
There are 3 ways to charge batteries on larger RT. Inverter charger, 14V start down to 13.2 to house bank, ACR connects engine, 2nd ACR connects thruster when over 13V. opens when 12.75 or less.
Will not work over 16 or under 9.5 (dead battery)
Second is alternator to engine, usually 14V, ACR to house, ACR to thruster.
Third is Solar to house- 90%, 10% to engine. Mine puts out under 13V so ACRs do not close.
Switch to connect house to engine if too weak to start, like a jump start box.
Generator starts from thruster battery.
pretty neat system - do not really need jump box as there are 3 isolated battery banks, any one of which can get things going.
 
I understand the acrs are here when there is a single charge source like the engine. But the onboard charger has 3 circuits one for each bank. How is this supposed to work then. Shore charger always has a voltage of over 13v on all 3 banks. The acrs then defeat the the 3 stage process and could possibly cook the batteries. I still think acrs should be disabled when charging via a shorepower.
 
Hi Stwendl, the battery charger on most of our 8’6” beam models is typically a ‘3 bank’ charger, which will have a charging wire connected to each separate bank. The 10’ beam models are equipped with a charger/inverter combination unit which has a single wire going to and from the house bank. Charging on the bigger boats will require using the ACR’s to get from house to the other two banks.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

-Tim
 
Hi Tim,

I understand the configuration. However I question if it is advisable to use a single charger for a long term charge like it would be in a slip

House, thruster, and start batteries may nor entirely be the same as they are in my r27. Applying the same charge regimen to batteries that are different and are used/discharged differently may lead to premature aging.

In effect, on my r27, due to the acr activity, batteries are paralleled during shore charging and thus the individual charge outputs are ineffective if not even harmful to the charger.

If the large beam boats use all identical batteries, the risk may be minimized. However any battery used alone for some while may need a different charge regimen which may not be available when paralled by acrs.

Our boats are either on dockside charger, on engine alternator, possibly generator or solar input, or just providing juice to the consumers while anchored or moored somewhere during which time starter and thruster batteries are not in use.
 
stwendl":znw9654g said:
Hi Tim,

I understand the configuration. However I question if it is advisable to use a single charger for a long term charge like it would be in a slip

House, thruster, and start batteries may nor entirely be the same as they are in my r27. Applying the same charge regimen to batteries that are different and are used/discharged differently may lead to premature aging.

You shouldn't really mix battery types specifically because of the different charging requirements for different batteries. Your observation regararding charger output depending on state of charge is interesting, but I think that if a battery is at full charge the relay opens to that specific battery group and charging will not occur. The relay closes only when it senses a drop in voltage between a certain range. Too low and it will not close at all to avoid a bad situation with a bad battery. At least this is the way I understand it.
 
knotflying":34e32rl5 said:
stwendl":34e32rl5 said:
......but I think that if a battery is at full charge the relay opens to that specific battery group and charging will not occur. The relay closes only when it senses a drop in voltage between a certain range.

Actually, the relays close when they sense a charging voltage of 13.5 volts,... combining batteries. They will open when the voltage drops to 12.75.... I discovered the solar charge wires were directly connected to both sides of the start/house ACR.
There are some problems with this arrangement. I have seen my house bank @12.2V connect with a fully charged start battery because the ACR senses a charge voltage from the solar panel...not good! Additionally I don’t see the sense of having a 3 bank battery charger when the ACRs are going to combine the batteries into 1 large bank. Blue Seas suggests a relay to disconnect the ACRs when this becomes problematic.... mostly because as 1 bank, the charger may keep some fully charged batteries in absorption mode longer than needed as the other batteries catch up....
I have wired an automotive relay to the ground contacts of both ACRs, so they only connect when the engine is running, otherwise they are normally off.
 
knotflying":1skfs8br said:
stwendl":1skfs8br said:
Hi Tim,

I understand the configuration. However I question if it is advisable to use a single charger for a long term charge like it would be in a slip

House, thruster, and start batteries may nor entirely be the same as they are in my r27. Applying the same charge regimen to batteries that are different and are used/discharged differently may lead to premature aging.

You shouldn't really mix battery types specifically because of the different charging requirements for different batteries. Your observation regararding charger output depending on state of charge is interesting, but I think that if a battery is at full charge the relay opens to that specific battery group and charging will not occur. The relay closes only when it senses a drop in voltage between a certain range. Too low and it will not close at all to avoid a bad situation with a bad battery. At least this is the way I understand it.

I am not a battery expert by any means but I agree with Stwendl. Using one battery charger output to charge 3 banks could lead to over charging ( "cooking" the low use batteries, Engine, Thruster ) If the charger is attached to the house battery. ( The chargers sensing battery). The isolation relays stay closed when there is not a voltage drop of less then Combine 90 sec 13.0V @ 12 V, Combine 30 sec 13.6V @ 12V, Open 10 sec 12.35V @ 12 V,Open 30 sec 12.75V @ 12 V, ( If the engine and thruster are fully charged and the house has a demand of Battery it will continue to put the same demand charge to the engine and Thruster). Having a system like this on a shore power charging system will cause premature failure of cranking and thruster batteries.The only time the Relays will open from charging is if voltage reaches 16.0V , Open High 16.0V @ 12 V. This is the same charging system as the engine alternator charging, except the alternator output should be going to the engine cranking battery ( proper installation) The engine battery now controls charging to the house and thruster. The engine battery has less demand while cruising relays are closed so all batteries are ( theoretically ) discharging from the engine battery and the engine charging system maintains the discharge, alternator regulator adjust voltages output. The best shore power changing system is what is used on the smaller boats separate output sensing lead for each battery. Each Battery gets charged by its needs. There is less chance of over charging and causing the battery to heat up which causes premature failure. The best way to charge from the engine is Promariner Digital Mobile Charge system - DMC 24V to 12V Batt to Batt part #05503, or less expensive have the input battery to the isolation relays coming from the engine cranking battery. This is my understanding of how the system works and how I have my C26 wired. 3years running with the system wired this way, 2000 W Kisea inverter on when cruising 4 year original installation maintenance free Group 27 batteries sill going strong . Will replace this off season. 3 seasons of use.
 
Finally some comments I can agree on. As I said before, if you have a multi bank charger connected then the acr should be disabled. Unfortunately this does not seem to be the factory config on my boat. On top there is a different type batttery used for the starter and deep cycles for thrust and house. In general batteries in parallel, if the same type, will take the charge properly but if at different soc require different charge, absorption , and float timing. If motoring for a long time I would be better to have the engine feed some form of multi bank charger to extend the life of the batteries.

In regard to the “input for the charging relays” I don’t think they have an input. They measure the voltage on either input and decide to close when either input meets the criteria. If not, then the solar charge which is mostly connected to house would never trigger the “spill over” to engine and thruster. The best solution was already mentioned, disconnect the ground to the acrs when on shore charge. Some acrs have a start inhibit input, which means if 12v is applied to that inhibit input the acrs will not close. This will eliminate the need of a relay to disconnect ground from the acrs to prevent their closing under 3 bank shore chargers. Just need to find a 12v source that is only available when on shore charge.

After having said all of this, I must admit that millions of batteries are charged like this every year in Cars and boat. Does it his hurt and he batteries? Probably. How much could we save by preventing premature death of those lead acid batteries? Don’t know. If you have agm or even lithium batteries then all this is way more important. There is a reason why elect ic car manufacturers put expensive battery management systems in vehicles. After all they have to replace those batteries in case of failure.
 
Stwendl,
I agree with all of your explanation. You are correct "input for charging relay" either connection can be the input. My explanation was not correctly stated. My meaning was the alternator output should go to the cranking battery ( charge source).From cranking battery the terminal connections to the relays would be the" Input or higher voltage" to activate the relays to close and parallel the thruster and house batteries. You are correct that the solar output connected to the house battery could possibly raise the voltage high enough to close the relay and parallel to the cranking battery. I don't have a solar panel so I'm not sure if the refrigerator is on if the solar would be capable of charging the house battery to a voltage high enough to close the relay. I don't know but possible.

snydzy":392430ds said:
I have seen my house bank @12.2V connect with a fully charged start battery because the ACR senses a charge voltage from the solar panel...not good! Additionally I don’t see the sense of having a 3 bank battery charger when the ACRs are going to combine the batteries into 1 large bank. Blue Seas suggests a relay to disconnect the ACRs when this becomes problematic.... mostly because as 1 bank, the charger may keep some fully charged batteries in absorption mode longer than needed as the other batteries catch up....

I didn't read this until after posting my first post. This makes great sense. I never liked the fact that I have a 3 bank charger but once the voltage gets to the thresh hold value the relays close and three output is essentially going to four batteries in parallel. The relay disconnect is a good idea.
 
just wet back to my boat that is on shore charge. Sure enough the ACRs are closed. I think someone mentioned that the factory now puts in single bank chargers due to the fact that ACRs are in. In this case, due the specs of the ACRs we really have just one bank of 4 batteries in parallel as the ACRs combine if they see on any input 13.6v for more than 30 secs, 13.0v for more than 90 seconds. And they open at 12.35V when below for more than 10 secs, or 12.75V for more than 30 secs. If you have solar panels, you most likely have have more than 12.75 on house, which keeps the connection to the engine and thruster batteries connected all times. During night, on the hook and no generator or engine running, the batteries are most likely separated which serves the purpose of not discharging the starter battery with house loads. During the day, if your consumption is high enough even with solar on, eventually battery voltage may go below the ACR open voltage protecting your engine and thruster batteries as intended.

With all the batteries in parallel for most of the time there is a problem if the battery types are not the same. In my case I have 2 house batts and one thruster battery DC27MF 890MCA deep cycle battery and one 27SM-8MF 1000CCA starter battery.
Haven't evaluated what this does when they are parallel most of the times.

Ideally, you want a smart charger for each bank that is fed either by shore power/generator or engine alternator. So technically we just need a 110/12v powersupply feeding into the 3 bank charger where the powersupply output is replaced with the alternator output when the engine is running. Would need some lockout mode to in case shore power and engine are running.

Alternatively, pro mariner make a "ProIsoCharger" that takes alternator input and feeds between 1-3 banks of batteries with a smart charger therefore eliminating the ACRs. Those IsoChargers come in different capacities and need to match the alternator output. This charger seems to charge batteries in sequence not in parallel, starting with bank 1 first, then bank 2 and so forth before it puts a maintenance charge on all banks. It also seems to perform a function where it provides power to other banks if there is a high demand thusly eliminating the need of a parallel switch that we have in our boats. Haven't seen a spec how much current they can bridge. They do caution that the unit must not be allowed to have starter current go thru it which means it is useless for that function or providing power to the thrusters.

They also have a single bank version which will use the alternator output and apply multistage charging which could be used with ACRs. However, due to the different SOC of banks of batteries, different charge regimens should be applied to extend the life of batteries.

The best way to inhibit the operation of the ACRs is to apply +12v to the SI+ input which can be derived from the LED that indicates that the charger is on.

The desired logic is to have batteries properly charging when power is available, isolated when not charging and paralleled only when needed at certain demands which I assume to be manually induced only. Solution is a three bank charger from shore power, 3 bank charger from alternator, ACRs replaced with parallel switch (perhaps remotely controlled) for short term emergency connection (or ACRs inhibited to be used if you have solar).

I think this summarizes this subject and I will shut up unless someone has some compelling arguments that justify an answer 🙂
 
I am a rookie at understanding the battery charging issues but have a question. Batteries all drained as shore power circuit breaker tripped. I don't believe that was a boat issue but more likely caused by pool pump on same outdoor circuit. Now that I reset the breaker the boat batteries are recharging. I believe in the 2018 RT 27 there are 3 battery banks. Bank one and two (House and engine I believe) are ok. Bank 3 (which I believe is thruster and generator) is not charging and needle is all the way to the left. Neither of those two pieces of equipment will work now. Any suggestions on how to trouble shoot before I have to pull all 3 batteries out to check the terminals?
 
Not knowing exactly what charger you have or relay configuration it is hard to pinpoint your issue. If your charger has direct leads to each bank then check the fuse for the lead to the thruster bank. If you have charging via relays then it is possible that because the thruster battery is below the minimum voltage that the relay is preventing it from being charged. I am curious though as to why all batteries would have drained with loss of power. I could see the house draining if you had items powered up, buy the thruster and engine battery should have remained charged up.
 
Good question why all batteries drained. Do not have an answer for that. I will need to keep an eye on that scenario.
After reading how the ACRs work, the undercharged situation and following the wiring I solved it by jumping across the two terminals on the ACR for an hour to get the charge up enough. When I took the jump off it continued to charge so I think I am good to go.

Thanks
 
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