Bilge Pumps

D

doke01

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
579
Fluid Motion Model
C-248 C
Hull Identification Number
FMLT2507I607
Vessel Name
Nauti Dream (2007)
My Ranger 25 is hull #7 and has only one bilge pump. I noticed that some posters mention 2 pumps. Should I add a second pump? Also, where is the second pump on the new Ranger 25s?
 
I sure would not want to rely upon one small bilge pump in an emergency! On a sinking boat, the best bilge pump is a scared salor with a bucket. On hull #75 the second bilge pump is out of the bilge water in front of the engine.
Henry
 
I also only have one electric bilge pump on Island Ranger.

From everything I've read, a bilge pump can only handle incidental water. I don't have the numbers handy, but there was no way for these bilge pumps to keep up with a major leak. I can dig them out if you want.

So I figured it would be a better idea to put in an alarm that tells me if the water ever got above the pump level. I have a larger capacity hand pump, and of course a bucket. I did change the float switch - the factory installed one was driving me crazy, it kept getting stuck "on" and I couldn't stop it. I switched to a Waterwitch Model 257B
http://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html
with the optional buzzer and am very pleased. No moving parts, easy to wire in, both level sensors built in, and the alarm is pretty loud.

Mac
 
It is said there is no better bilge pump than a panic'ed skipper and a 5 gal bucket. The buzzer is a good addition.
captd
 
Doke01,
The Laurie Ann is the prime example not to rely upon one bilge pump. Our bilge pump failed when the impeller on the pump was stuck dead by a piece of debris that was sucked in. There was a leak, an incidental one as described by Mac, that was not discovered until the water was way, way up in the engine compartment. That is where the "paniced skipper" method took over! The story had a happy ending thanks to Andrew and the terrific service from the factory. Today, we carry a large manual suction pump and we put a 1100 GPH pump in the bilge. But, in testing it I found that I had to re-route the hose to the transom because the pump could not make enough head pressure to overcome the steepness of the hose's rise. In other words, the pump ran fine but nothing came out of the boat-the pump just ran. Now, with the re-route, everything is fine.

My suggestion: test your bilge pump to make sure that it is fully functional and never, ever assume that it is. Then, consider adding the second pump as describe and that is being put in the Ranger's today.
 
I found a couple of numbers -

a 2 inch hole, one foot below the waterline, will flood at 4,680 gallons per hour

a 2 inch hole, three feet below the waterline, will flood at 8,160 gallons per hour.

And don't forget that bilge pumps are rated with no head - i.e. when pumping the water level. Tests show that the little bilge pumps we tend to use run at 50-70% of their rated capacity when they have to lift the water up a few feet. For example, a 1000 gph pump may only pump 500 gph when installed in a boat. It all depends on the installation, and the pump. There are some test results, by brand, posted on the web.

I think a second bilge pump is a great idea, and I think an alarm is even better. I bought one of the Rule Bilge alarm for $60 from West Marine with an 85 db alarm, and in my opinion it is worthless. I doubt you can hear the alarm when the engine is running unless you hold it next to your ear. I'd recommend the Waterwitch....

Mac
 
If we get a two inch hole, it is time to head for the nearest sand bar or grab the abandon ship bag and launch the dinghy!

In our case with the Laurie Ann, the factory found two holes about 1/16 to 1/8" in diameter that was allowing about a gallon a minute into the bilge. Until then and unknown to everyone, the bilge pump was such doing a nice job of dealing with this that for the first week or two of ownership, that the problem was not detected until the pump failed.

My reading indicates that the most common problem is a failure of the thru hull fitting or the attached hose/coupling. What I should do, but have not, is to carry a cone shaped dowel that can be wedged into the thru hull fitting should it fail. Sail boaters have been doing this for many, many years.

We do carry a blue tarp for several purposes. One purpose for the tarp is that in the event of "being holed" like running into the pointy end of a dead head log (a real possibility in Puget Sound) that the tarp could be laid against the outside of the hull and secured with lines to reduce the water leak dramatically. Then head for safety!

Having said all of this, we have boated in Puget Sound for over 20 years and have hit logs and dead heads with never a problem. Last fall when Hurricane Ike flooded the Mississippi River with thousands of logs, the Laurie Ann had to push logs to enter and leave a lock. Though the gelcoat was scratched only a bit, the hull was sound and sturdy, which I believe, is a statement about the quality that the factory is producing.
 
Maureen and I can attest to the strength of these hulls. A year ago November we were cruising along on Lake Mead at about 1800 RPM's when WHAM! We hit a mountain top! By the time Solitude came to a rest. The bow was in 50 feet of water again however, the stern, was now resting in six inches of water! Though we tore the heck out of the bottom of the boat she did not hole.

These boats are built!
 
Mac is dead on in my opinion about a second bilge pump. During some of my training this came up many times. Time and time again the instructor would always say "Bilge pumps are not an emergency back up" They are simply to get rid of excess water due to flax packing glands..etc....I strongly agree that a bilge alarm would be #1 before adding a second pump. Where we install the second pump on our boats is in a place you hope you never will see water. It sets about 1ft. above the other pump forward of the engine. By the time water hit that pump you would have water halfway over the engine.
 
On another note on the grounding of Solitude. We all carry around those pesky flairs and smoke grenades and wonder if we will ever need them. Well let me tell you..... we used every single one we had before we finally got someones attention. Don't throw away those old one's that expire, use them for back up. We were lucky, we were on the lake at a time when most people avoid it. The wind was building and we were stuck. The smoke flair caught the attention of a boater who as he put it "never comes to this part of the lake".

We now carry enough signaling devices to get the attention of the space station.....
 
My early R25 (#11) also has only one bilge pump. I'm currently adding both a high-water alarm and a second, high-capacity (3700 gph) pump.

It's true that the Rule high-water alarm will likely not be heard over the engine noise (I've used them in other boats). The main reason for having it is that, if a leak occurs and the primary pump fails, there is some possibility that someone walking the dock might notice it and do something about it. I'd like to think that if there was serious water intrusion while I was underway I would notice the behavior of the boat change in time to do something about it.

I'm planning to put the high-capacity pump on the floor of the engine compartment just forward of the muffler, with a line running straight out to the port side next to the head discharge. The intention is that it wouldn't be useful until the water level reached the bottom of the engine, but would have very little head and would discharge very fast. In other words, it might handle a fairly significant inflow for at least a short period of time - enough time, hopefully, to keep the engine running and get the boat ashore someplace.

I'm not planning to use a float switch for the high-capacity pump. If it kicks in automatically it will run the batteries down fairly quickly, so it really isn't intended for unattended operation (that's what the alarm is for). I'm going to put a manual switch just above the pump inside the engine compartment, wired direct to the main buss. This way that someone on the dock who hears the high-water alarm go off could manually kick the high-capacity pump without having access to the interior of the boat.

None of this is done yet, other than buying the parts and making plates for attaching them to the interior of the hull. I'm open to suggestions on how I might improve on this design.
 
Ram, about your plans for your second bilge pump:

In my experience where the Laurie Ann took on a lot of water, we were underway and moving at 10 plus knots at time of discovery. The boat was not behaving differently, we discovered it as part of a random look at the engine. Therefore, I would not depend upon the behavior of the boat to signal a problem, unless the engine stopping is the signal. I think a bilge alarm that is both audible and visual and placed on the dash in front of the pilot is the preferred solution.

If your boat is at the marina full time, I would rethink the idea of not putting the second pump on an automatic pump switch. I would rather have a dead battery than a sunk boat. I have had a marina boat for 10 years and the bilge pump power was wired into the shore power so the battery was never dead anyway. If, however, your boat is on its trailer except when you are using it (like ours) that may be a different matter.
 
John, your point is well taken, and I have decided to wire the float switch (which I was installing anyway to activate the alarm) to the high-capacity pump as well. As you said, I am nearly always hooked up to shore power at the dock, and that should keep the batteries charged and the pump running - barring an electrical failure in the shore power connection or the charger. You can only do so much.

I've also decided to get an additional alarm and mount it at the helm. That way I'm covered both ways - I should hear it if I'm inside, even with the engine on, and someone walking the dock may hear it if it's moored.

Thanks for the input on this. I'll let you know how the installation goes.
 
Ram,

When you do this, I would like to know what parts you got (that you would recommend to do again) and any lessons you learned along the way. I think what you are doing is something that I want to do also.
 
Our Ranger 25 Hull #13, 110 hp yanmar has one bilge pump. What is the brand and model # of the second bilge pump that is currently being installed on the R25. How about a suggestion for a high water alarm.

Frank and Pam
Tuggin Aweigh
 
"put a 1100 GPH pump in the bilge".

I found (and lost) a web site describing an emergency pumping system that used the engine cooling water pump in an emergency to remove bilge water. The thru hull was closed and a secondary line was added via a "T" with a valve and strainer. In this position the water pump was capable of removing a geat deal of water quickly. It sems to me that any water in the bilge can change from a pain to an emergency very quickly.

Does anyone know where the parts are available for this set up. Would this be practical to install in a Ranger.

I guess we've been lucky--in 25 years we have very rarely had need of a bilge pump.

These posts have made me nervous.

Rupunzal
 
I know we all want to keep our boats afloat and under its own power, but what if the worse case scenario were to occur? Large leak, lost electrical, worn out panicked sailor with 5 gallon bucket, rough seas, heavy rain, swamped motor, etc... Will it still float? How much flotation is built into these boats? and where is it located? My R21EC doesn't seem to have any under the floor. In the gunwales, perhaps? I'm sure there is plenty of flotation, but it's a question I did not think to ask when I was in the research phase of my R21EC purchase. It would be comforting to know for sure. 🙂
 
Looking at the amount of water that gets pushed out with the exhaust, I would venture a guess that our little engines do not suck enough water to make it worth using as an emergency pump. Never measured it though. I would worry about clogging the intake, then having the motor overheat and having even more problems....I still vote for at least one automatic pump, and a very loud alarm....

No floatation in a R-25. Trapped air might keep it afloat for a while. Don't know about the 21.

Mac
 
Using the engine's raw intake as an emergency bilge pump and other bilge pump topics is well covered in this month's Passage Maker Magazine and will be in the next month's issue. The information there is so comprehensive that is worthy of getting the issue and digesting it. The detail of the information contained in that article ranges from size of bilge pumps to the kind of hoses to use and much more.
 
To answer the question of what type of secondary pump I'm installing, it's a Rule 3700 (3700 gph). I'm going with the suggestion of wiring it to the same float switch that will be attached to a high water alarm. To solve the issue of hearing/seeing the high water alarm, I got a second alarm unit ($25 from Rule), and will be installing one alarm unit at the helm station and one in the cockpit. So if the secondary pump ever kicks in (the float switch will be at about the same level as the oil pan on the engine), both alarms will also go off, and will be audible whether I'm under way or at the dock.

I had considered running the exhaust hose out through the same thru-hull as the head outlet, but I've decided to install another thru-hull dedicated to the secondary bilge pump and a little higher above the water line. My expectation is that a dedicated line with full 1.5" i.d. and relatively little rise, with this pump, should allow it to deal with fairly significant water ingress. Hopefully that will never happen, but the water up here is cold.

The only situation this doesn't address is one where the water runs forward in the bilge and brings the bow down so that the secondary pump never kicks in. The only way to deal with that would be to have a third pump under the V-berth, which I don't really want to get into.

I have most of the parts required to install this in place, once I get it into the boat I'll post some photos and a description of the installation.
 
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