C-28 NextGen 3.5 Not Starting...

[Bob/Bradenton]

Low hours, about 20 in our 2019 C-28. Went to start it today, cranks and cranks but no firing.

Thought that it might be the first fuel filter, the metal one that on our boat, that might be clogged.
(The metal can is rusted on so the filter can't be inspected, but I did drain it and the fuel was clean).

So I disconnected it from the line and joined the incoming 1st filter fuel line to the incoming of the clear Racor. Drained that one and refilled.

Just cranks with no firing. Never happened before. Always started.

The only "fix" that I did was a couple weeks ago I adjusted the fuel shut-off selenoid, per NextGen instructions since the gen would not turn OFF. That fixed it, just one turn on the bolt. But ran fine after that. Start and Stop.

I'm going to replace both of those small Racors with a Racor 500. Per NextGen, the original metal can first small Racor has a 10 micron filter to pick up the big stuff and the last one with the clear plastic housing has the 2 micron. Per NextGen, you have to use 2 micron as the final filter so that's the one that I'll use in the single larger Racor.

But before I go back to Ken at Racor, (again), any ideas why it's not firing? Fuel and Air makes these things work but there seems to be quite a number of small gizmos on that gen. Again, a very low hours gen.

Thanks for any ideas/comments...Bob/Bradenton

 

[BB marine]

First thing is only crank for a few seconds at a time. The generator is mounted low in a C28 and if it is cranking and not running it can inject water from the riser into the exhaust manifold then into the crack case. I know of a few Cutwater owners that experienced this and it was costly! Continually check the oil when troubleshooting. Did you prime the fuel system to confirm there is fuel in the fuel system and returning back to the tank.


The fuel pump may be energized by jumping the 12 gauge red wire on the remote panel connector block to the 14 gauge yellow wire. You should hear the fuel pump working and fuel will flow back to the return on the tank. Run the pump for approx.
2-3 minutes allowing time for the fuel system to completely fill with fuel. Remove jumper wire.

If the system gets air in it after a fuel filter change it may not start.

Is the solenoid linkage moving in far enough to open the fuel valve? While cranking gently push the solenoid linkage in. The linkage may be sticking.

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

Hi Brian,

As always, thanks!

Per Ken/NextGen advice, I closed the sea water to the gen. (And printed some signs indicating that the water needed to be turned back ON at some point).

I did not prime the fuel system, didn't know how so thanks for that info.

The "Block" that you are speaking about is the white nylon block that is next to those two relays on to the right/front top of the gen? Ken suggested jumping the heavy Red and the heavy Blue to bypass the gen start switch but that's not the issue. The start switch works fine.

So that same Red heavy wire, gets jumped to the Yellow heavy wire on that block, to start the gen fuel pump to prime the engine?

No idea how air could have gotten into the fuel system but that sure sounds like fuel-starvation to me.

I'll try it in the morning and let you know. Bob/Bradenton...

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

Follow Up: NextGen 3.5 Not Starting

As noted, this is a low hours, about 20, in my 2019 Cutwater C-28.

It always started/ran/stopped just fine until yesterday.

NOTE: I had an Engine-Stop issue two months ago. I adjusted the selenoid bolt, one turn, and the engine would Stop as it should. No issues after that with the engine Starting/Running/Stopping.

It would seem that this is a fuel issue. The engine cranks (I did turn the sea-water valve OFF) but does not fire.

However to trouble-shoot a possible fuel issue, here’s what I have done:

-Cleaned the Fuel Filter and drained/refilled. No indication of water or crud.

NOTE: I disconnected that first primary Filter since the metal can had rusted and could not be removed for cleaning/new filter. I’ve ordered a new Racor 500 with 2 micron filters and will remove both the original smaller filters. For now, the original small Racor/2 Micron filter is still in place.

-I electrically jumped on the Terminal Block, the Red 12 and the Yellow 14 to turn ON the Fuel Pump to prime the system. I’ve done that a couple times for over two minutes. Engine does not fire.

NOTE: When I do the jumper I can hear the Fuel Pump ticking.

-I removed the rubber Fuel Line that comes from the Fuel Pump and engaged the jumper. Very good fuel flow.

-I removed the smaller rubber line that is located at the bottom of the Injector and engaged the jumper. Very good fuel flow.

-I removed the metal tube from the top of the Injector and engaged the jumper. No fuel flow at all but I’m not sure that there is supposed to be any.

-The engine Oil level is at 3/4. No indication of diesel fuel in the oil. (No pink color or fuel smell to the oil).


So, I’ve got good fuel flow to the Engine/Injector. Engine turns over but no firing.

What is the next step for trouble-shooting?

Thanks again,

Bob/Bradenton

 

[BB marine]

-I removed the metal tube from the top of the Injector and engaged the jumper. No fuel flow at all but I’m not sure that there is supposed to be any.

This is your high pressure line to the injector. If you removed this or loosened this line you may have air in the high pressure side and the engine will not start. The fuel will only come out of this line if the pressure pump is turning. It turns from engine rotation. The pump is timed to inject fuel. I'm not sure what your initial issue was at the start. I would start over again. Inspect every fuel fitting from the tank to the filters to the electric fuel pump. Re-prime the fuel system as you did before. Listen to confirm that you hear fuel going back to the tank. Do not open any fuel lines at all. If the return fuel line at the tank is accessible remove it at the tank and place it in a container to confirm return fuel. Do this if you can not hear the fuel returning. After doing this reattach the fuel line. Prime one more time, Inspect all fuel fittings again for any signs of leaks. Any air introduced into the fuel system will cause a no start or a hard start. Once you have completed this then crack the high pressure fuel tubing at the top of the injector. Wrap. several layers of paper towel around this loosened fitting. (Do not remove it) Crank the engine over until you see fuel saturating the paper towel. Stop cranking the engine and tighten the fitting. (this bleeds any air trapped in the injector pump and the line going to the injector. (Any time you remove a line, a filter, loosen a line, there is an opportunity for air to be introduced into the fuel system. This air can get locked in and cause a hard start or no start.( When ever opening a line you may have to bleed the fuel system again)

Confirm the fuel solenoid is functioning properly and not faulty. Adjust properly. While trouble shooting, cranking the engine gently push the solenoid linkage in. No water coolant water flow, no oil pressure, will cause the solenoid to close after a few seconds after cranking ( safety shut down)
Confirm that the power is going to the glow plug for preheat.

Its hard to troubleshoot without seeing and hearing. I'm just throwing out a few ideas.

 

[Gypsy]

Bob,
I had trouble starting my gen set. I wasn’t allowing the glow plug to warm up. Are you pressing and holding the bottom of the switch for 8 seconds before cranking?

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

I just did all the fuel tests/bleeding. Fuel flow is just fine all the way back to the tank.

Just had a chat with Jonas at NextGen and he asked me to try to turn the flywheel. Should be very very hard on the compression stroke.

Nope, turns pretty easily, hardly any feel to the compression, therefore, no or almost no compression to the engine.

As noted, the engine has only about 20 hours on it. So I've called their local repair guy to stop by,

The gen was running just fine a week or so ago. Then yesterday went to start it and it just cranked. We did have a big storm come through here last week, lots of cold wind/rain. I'm in a canal so there were no following seas.

So, we shall see...

Thanks for all the good comments...Bob/Bradenton

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

Semi-Update:

So here's what I think happened to cause the very low compression in this 20 hour NextGen generator (3.5).

Had a nice long chat this morning with Ken/NextGen. Good guy, knows these gens in and out plus has seen the one's that have come back to the shop. Most common reason: Lack of use, Lack of load. Carbon buildup.

I rarely use my generator and when I do, it's only for 5-10 minutes, a huge no-no. Occasionally I'll run the A/C from it but as Ken told me, I should be turning ON most everything that I can to create load on the engine AND run it for an hour or so at least. I should have been running the generator under load anytime I took the boat out for a cruise. Never did that.

So, the last time I started the gen was about three weeks ago and only ran it for a short time. Never really warmed up.

And then yesterday I tried to start it and it just cranked, no firing at all. You need compression to blast that diesel fuel. No or low compression, no firing.

There was no indication that the engine inhaled water. "HydroLock" when the water is trying to compress and breaks stuff in the engine. (Rings, Block, Head, etc.) It spun without any sign of the dreaded "clunk" as the water tries to compress.

Based on the engine sitting for three weeks, I'm putting my bets on a stuck exhaust valve. Not the intake valve since I would hear a "whosh" coming out of the air filter as the piston blows the compression out of the open intake valve.

Ken suggested that it might be that the piston rings are stuck do to carbon buildup. I would think that that would be a rather long term decrease in compression rather than the instant loss (after three weeks of sitting) of compression that I experienced.

Fortunately with these engines the cylinder head is on the side of the engine and it's easy to get to. Remove the valve cover first, turn the engine over and see if one of the valves is not moving. Stuck.

Anyway, that's what I'm hoping for. Back in a few days...Bob/Bradenton

 

[CaptT]

Keep us posted Bob as I am guilty as charged. I use my Nexgen the same way you do. I need to change my habits.
Thanks for letting us know about the proper way to "exercise" a generator.
You, and others, are what makes this site a great source for information.
Terry

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

Hi Terry,

One other thing that Ken mentioned was that they have their generators on the small shrimp boats in Louisiana and those shrimpers are running them 24 hours per day while they are out, and they have 25,000 hours on them. Even when they get home for a night, the engines are still warm from the day before.

I've got 20 hours on mine, almost no use at all and it's broken. Perhaps a "Clue".

I'll pull the valve cover in the morning and see if one of the valves is stuck, hope so...

By the way, this is the manual for that nice one-cylinder Kubota:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/20380 ... eries.html

Bob/Bradenton

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

FIXED AND RUNNING!!!

Sorry for the "yelling" in caps. But the generator is running!

Did a bunch of “taking stuff apart” this morning to check on what might be loose. Everything was as it was supposed to be. I took the valve cover off but both valves were working fine. Thought that maybe one had hung open, nope...

But the issue was very low compression, all due to me never running the engine, running it for a very short time never fully heating it up, and never running heavy load items like the A/C and hot water heater. 20 hours on it.

So, how to get compression back. There was a small amount, just not enough to fire the diesel fuel.

The old trick that my son and I used to do with the many, many rotary RX7’s that we had, was when you flooded the engine with gas and it washed off the oil from the rotors and you lost all compression, you took the plugs out, added some oil to the rotor housing, put the plugs back in and fired it up. Smoky but always worked.

So, based on that now aged knowledge, I poured some 30 weight oil down into the air filter snout, cranked it, nothing. Did it again, a cough, perhaps a clue. Did it a third time and she started right up, blew all the cylinder oil into the canal but some Dawn quickly cleared that up.

Turned ON the A/C and the Hot Water Heater to load up the engine.

So, I’ll keep her running for a couple hours under load. It's probably going to take a while to loosen up the carbonized rings, which I assume was the lack of compression problem so it might not start the next time, but I know now (and you do to!) how to get enough compression back to start the engine...Bob/Bradenton

 

[BB marine]

Good job! Yes the three functions suck pop and blow are needed, air, compression and fuel. Sometimes it is hard to diagnose that on a single cylinder unless you physically check compression.You can hear a dead cylinder on multi cylinder engines. When I worked in the New England area it was not uncommon to have the same issue you had with larger gas engines and diesels after a winter on the hard. If the exhausts outlets were left uncovered the damp salt air would would find its way up the exhaust system. When summarize time came in the spring a few cylinders would miss because of partially stuck exhaust valves. I used a spray bottle with Marvel mystery oil and would fog the engine with a fine mist in the intake. This helped lubricate the top end and most of the time it would free up the valves. The gas engines were a bit easier to do this to because there was no worries about the engine running away. The diesel engines I was a bit more careful to the amount I sprayed. A diesel will run on oil. I believe your issues will be over if you continue to run the engine often and for at least long enough to allow the engine to reach full operating temperature. You are not the first Cutwater owner that this has happened to. I met a Owner of a C28 in Gulf Shores Alabama last spring. 2018 Cutwater clean, very low hour on the main and generator engines. He rarely used the generator. The one time that he decided to fire it up because it was warm outside and run the Air. It would not start. He cranked on it a few times and gave up. He was not as lucky as you. It required a complete tear down and rebuild. When I talked to him it was running great and he said I run it every time we go out on the boat load it down and let it run. If you have a generator the best thing for it is to be used. Enjoy your cool Air while you cruise!!

 

[CaptT]

Hi Terry,

One other thing that Ken mentioned was that they have their generators on the small shrimp boats in Louisiana and those shrimpers are running them 24 hours per day while they are out, and they have 25,000 hours on them. Even when they get home for a night, the engines are still warm from the day before.

I've got 20 hours on mine, almost no use at all and it's broken. Perhaps a "Clue".

I'll pull the valve cover in the morning and see if one of the valves is stuck, hope so...

By the way, this is the manual for that nice one-cylinder Kubota:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/20380 ... eries.html

Bob/Bradenton

I knew the Kubota diesel engine is tough, but 25,000 hours......amazing! I will definitely treat my generator with more respect!
I will change my running habits immediately. With the Florida summer coming a bit early an air-conditioned cabin would be nice.
Thanks again for the great info and good luck getting that 300+ pounds beast back in the boat!
UPDATE didn't se your last post! Congratulations! With the description you provided I think we have to call you "MacGyver"!

 

[Bob/Bradenton]

CaptT,
Fortunately I never had to remove the generator from the boat. That was the next step, although I think that I could have removed the Head with the block still in the boat to see if I had cracked it from Hydro-Locking.

But I did feel a little compression when I turned it over by hand. You can get to the flywheel just by reaching over the top of the generator. Mine had just a bit of compression which is much better than just free-wheeling, which would have mostly likely meant that the compression was leading out of a crack in the head or block.

I do have to emphasize that you only want to put enough oil down the air filter snout to coat the piston to provide enough sealing to gain "some" compression to get the engine firing. You don't want to pour a ton of it down there because that will fill the cylinder and the oil won't compress and just like Hydro-Lock, you will break important stuff. Expensive. I probably did a shot-glass or less at a time. Took three times. As noted, once the engine started, I let it run for three hours straight, under full load. Shut it down for two hours (had to go someplace) and the big test was whether it was going to re-start. It did and has ever since.

I'm in mid-Gulf Florida and ran it today heading out using the A/C. Same yesterday. Even if you want to open the windows for fresh air, run that gen with the A/C ON. It hardly burns any fuel, so what the heck...Bob/Bradenton