Dead Batteries

[Alpina]

I have a 2019 R29 CB. Here’s the situation:

* House battery switch in the on position
* Parallel switch in the off position
* Engine battery in the off position
* All electronics off
* I was running a small Pelletier dehumidifier on A/C but it must not have been running as both breakers were off.
* Galley fridge was on. Other were off.

I plugged my boat into shore power. I keep the Main Breaker 2 off as I don’t run the A/C when I’m not on the boat. I accidentally turned off the Main Breaker 1 to off but didn’t t realize it.

Came back to the boat after six days to the following situation. Boat is in a covered marina so no input from the solar panels to charge the batteries.

* Tried to start the engine but wouldn’t turn over.
* Put the parallel switch to on and engine still wouldn’t start.
* Tried to start the generator and it wouldn’t start either.

I’m confused. I’m guessing that the inverter/charger didn’t have power since I turned off the circuit breaker 1. I’m not sure why though. Wouldn’t the circuit breakers prevent current to A/C output.

1) Why would that prevent the inverter from charging the batteries.
2) Why would the engine battery be dead
3) Why would the thruster/generator start battery be dead?

This concerns me because I always assumed that I could rely on the engine or generator in case my house bank died.

Does anyone has insight for me?
Franco


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[Kaptajnen]

You should not have left the engine battery switch on…that must have drained it.
The battery is most likely a el cheapo Chinese battery. If you have to replace it suggest you buy a Northstar or Lifeline battery manufactured in the USA.

 

[Alpina]

You should not have left the engine battery switch on…that must have drained it.
The battery is most likely a el cheapo Chinese battery. If you have to replace it suggest you buy a Northstar or Lifeline battery manufactured in the USA.

That was a typo. I just corrected it in the post. I had the engine switch to off.


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[Cutwater28GG]

if the house breakers were off then the fridge is off so that isnt drawing down the house battery
if the shore power breaker is off then the AC dehumidifier is off as is the battery charger
both the fridge and dehumidifier sound to me like distractions from the root cause.

there are parasitic loads on the engine battery. if I recall, the bilge pump and a CO2 monitor which might have dragged down the engine battery. its unclear why the house and thruster batteries are dead.

also if you have the factory universal AGM's they are not the best cranking battery's at the best of times

its either you are missing something that is drawing power and perhaps its occurring in a way that perhaps the ACR's arent closing and therefore letting all the batteries get dragged down to low volts. (ive had issues with the solar controller causing this when the boat swings at anchor but this doesnt sound like the issue here)

or your batteries for some reason are dead and need replacing - if you suspect the batteries only real way to tell is to pull them off the boat and load test them. - as a 2019 boat this is unlikely but possible if there werent treated well during their life.

Id probably start by going back with a volt meter and start to ascertain my baseline configuation on whats turned on or not and whats drawing power

 

[Alpina]

if the house breakers were off then the fridge is off so that isnt drawing down the house battery
if the shore power breaker is off then the AC dehumidifier is off as is the battery charger
both the fridge and dehumidifier sound to me like distractions from the root cause.

Thanks. The fridge is 12V. The circuit breaker is 110V so turning it off kept the batteries from charging. I will have to check that out when I’m back at the boat. Seems like an odd configuration but possible.

I’m still confused as to why the other two banks died as well. I will have to investigate what draw they are experiencing. I have to take out the battery sled to install my battery monitor so I will load test the batteries then. I pushed the boat used so I’m not sure how the batteries were treated prior.

I’ve kept them charged all but one time. When I first got the boat, the 12V inverter switch was turned off so the batteries did not charge. I feel like the engine battery has been marginal. Maybe I was right.

I got some digging to do.
Franco


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[S. Todd]

Franco:
I am not sure if your wiring is different, but in our 2021 R29S LE the Thruster Battery powers the two bilge pumps, the bilge alarm and the two CO Monitors. The pumps and the monitors will draw from the thruster battery continuously. (Our boat is stored on the trailer with the drain plug out so the "continuously testing for water bilge pumps" require pulling those fuses to save them from wasting effort and power.)

I am not sure what you are referencing when you say the 12 volt inverter switch was turned off, but it is my understanding that turning off the inverter switch to the batteries (in the port side main battery compartment) will just prevent the inverter from accidently being used to power 110 circuits and will not prevent the batteries from being charged. If this is not the case then I was told incorrectly at delivery.

I am guessing that your batteries were manufactured in 2018 and suffered some earlier significant draw downs and are now in need of replacing, but his is just a guess so please keep us posted about what you learn so we can all benefit.
Todd

 

[BB marine]

I have a 2019 R29 CB. Here’s the situation:

* House battery switch in the on position
* Parallel switch in the off position
* Engine battery in the off position
* All electronics off
* I was running a small Pelletier dehumidifier on A/C but it must not have been running as both breakers were off.
* Galley fridge was on. Other were off.

I plugged my boat into shore power. I keep the Main Breaker 2 off as I don’t run the A/C when I’m not on the boat. I accidentally turned off the Main Breaker 1 to off but didn’t t realize it.

Came back to the boat after six days to the following situation. Boat is in a covered marina so no input from the solar panels to charge the batteries.

* Tried to start the engine but wouldn’t turn over.
* Put the parallel switch to on and engine still wouldn’t start.
* Tried to start the generator and it wouldn’t start either.

I’m confused. I’m guessing that the inverter/charger didn’t have power since I turned off the circuit breaker 1. I’m not sure why though. Wouldn’t the circuit breakers prevent current to A/C output.

1) Why would that prevent the inverter from charging the batteries.
2) Why would the engine battery be dead
3) Why would the thruster/generator start battery be dead?

This concerns me because I always assumed that I could rely on the engine or generator in case my house bank died.

Does anyone has insight for me?
Franco


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There are a few misleading questions and switch positions.

" I’m confused. I’m guessing that the inverter/charger didn’t have power since I turned off the circuit breaker 1. I’m not sure why though. Wouldn’t the circuit breakers prevent current to A/C output. "


If you turned the main shore power breaker off there would be no power to that panel. If the panel has the battery charger circuit on it then the battery charger would not charge any of the batteries. If you left the refrigerator on it only draws from the house battery. If you left the refrigerator on for 6 days with no battery charging to the house bank you will have a completely flat battery bank. ( the ice maker is 120V and needs shore power the refrigerator is 12V)

1) Why would that prevent the inverter from charging the batteries.

The inverter will never charge the batteries. The inverter is inverting 12V to 120V when in invert mode. When the inverter battery switch is on and the inverter/battery charger is on it will invert when there is no shore power (12V to 120V) this init self will draw the battery down even if there is nothing drawing from it. The inverter does have a small draw just to operate. If there is shore power on and the inverter/charger breaker is on and the inverter/charger battery switch is in the on position the Inverter/charger will now go into convert mode 120V charging the 12V system .

2) Why would the engine battery be dead?

There are four ways the engine battery would be dead if you boat is wired as per Ranger specs. (1) the cross over/parallel switch was left on and has the house bank discharged from the refrigerator being on it also discharged the engine battery because both banks were in parallel through the cross over switch. (2) You have a weak cell in the engine battery which after 6 days would have discharged the battery enough that it would not start the engine. If the charger was on the battery would have maintained a charge because of the charger.(3) The stove switch (propane) is wired to the engine battery. If the draw from this is enough to deplete the engine battery in 6 days that would cause the battery not to start the engine.( defective ACR that is not opening the circuit when the voltage has dropped below 12.7V

3) Why would the thruster/generator start battery be dead?

The way the generator is wired it is always (hot) (I'm not sure why Ranger wires it that way. This still should not deplete the thruster battery. What will is if the bilge pumps have turned on several times during that 6 days away. The bilge pumps and CO detectors are wired (12V all the time and draw from the thruster battery)

My thoughts on this is. If all the battery switches were off engine battery , cross over the engine battery should be capable of starting the engine after 6 days of sitting. If it is not than I would have the engine battery fully charged let it sit for a couple hours and load test it. If it test fine I would then check to see is there is an issue with the stove switch. See what the amp draw is. The house bank seems to be a given it would be depleted if the refrigerator was on and the charger was not on.The thruster bank should not have been depleted unless the bilge pumps are running a lot. Check your packing gland and your deck drains. Or the thrust battery needs to be also load tested to confirm it is not defective.

The 12V stems on these boats seem to be a bit complicated but really are very simple. It is important to know the system. Knowing what you do each week to turn everything on is great but that isn't knowing the system. If you know the system how it is wired you will have a much better understanding of consequences of forgetting to do something.

Expecting to know how everything works in a 1 or 2 day delivery is not going to happen. I look at the delivery process of being a show and tell that everything works and where everything is at. After the delivery the Ranger or Cutwater owner should look at the owners manual and look at the wiring. The Fluid Motion manuals show a very simple illustration of the 12Volt and 120 Volt system. Using this to know the system will help owner from making mistakes and when mistakes are made figuring out why an issue occurred. Or if no mistakes were made to zero in on the malfunctioning culprit. Knowing the systems in the long run will save money. Less calls to the marine service centers, longer lasting batteries, and less issue while you are enjoying your boat.

 

[Alpina]

I did some serious trouble shooting today. Will update all on my findings over the next couple of days.


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[Alpina]

I did some serious trouble shooting today. Will update all on my findings over the next couple of days.

While I was able to get the batteries charged and use the boat. I did take this opportunity to really dig in to understand how all the various electrical systems are configured in the boat. I purchased used from a dealer, took delivery during the pandemic, so I didn't get a two day orientation, if one would even have been offered. The dealer is 10 hours away by car so I didn't even bother to inquire about this. I have listened to the various seminars PropTalk(?) recorded by FM and will go back and listen to them again. This is based on my boat a 2019 R29 CB.

Shore Power 30A goes to the A/C Main Circuit Breaker #1. When the A/C Breaker #1 is turned off, then the inverter/charger won't charge the batteries. That was the underlying issue of why my house batteries died. 110V is available in the boat through the inverter option. I had thought that the A/C Breaker #1 controlled power to the 110V circuit breakers and that the inverter/charger got 110V power straight from the shore power cable but I was wrong.

From there, the inverter/charger provides ~14V DC power to the batteries for charging via a switch and a 300A(?) fuse. That switch is located in the port side locker. When I first purchased the boat, that switch was off which is why I had the issue of the batteries not charging that time.

It's still not clear to me why the engine battery and thruster battery were discharged also. I am still tracing all the wiring to understand what might have happened there but I did load test the house and starter batteries (and will test the thruster battery this weekend). They were in good condition but all batteries registered a low CCA output (~400CCA) The specs for the factory installed batteries didn't have the CCA listed so I couldn't compare to the spec. I've had concerns about the starter battery so I just bit the bullet and purchased a new starter battery as suggested by another TugNut member in a separate post. I went with his recommendation of a NorthStar battery. The best local source for me was the X2 Power battery from Batteries Plus. I read in a posting that this was manufactured by NorthStar and I was able to confirm that. After rebate, tax and core charge, I paid $410. It is a 1150CCA dual purpose battery. My meter read 1180CCA which confirmed that it was reading the CCA properly for the factory batteries that I tested. The engine turns over much more solidly now. That was a great recommendation. Since the old dual purpose starter battery still had life left in it and comparable to the house bank, I've added it to my house bank providing an additional theoretical 55Ah usable capacity for the house bank.

I installed a Victron SmartShunt to the house bank and it is an amazing tool to understand how power is consumed on the boat. To install the shunt and measure the battery capacity, I had to pull out the battery sled. At first, I thought I'd just yank it out. I was humbled. That wasn't going to happen. Plan B: Using a flat crow bar, I lifted the front of the battery sled, and slid several 1.25" thick walled PVC pipe under the sled working them backwards. That allowed me to easily pull the sled forward. The other challenge was that the starter battery negative cable was too short to allow me to pull the sled out - not to easy but I was able to disconnect it and get the sled out.

I also installed a Victron SmartSolar MPPT controller. Haven't had the boat out to see how much better the solar panel works vs. the stock controller. I've ordered a Sunpower 335W solar panel that I will install in 6-8 weeks when it arrives.

More to follow but I feel like I have a much better understanding of how the various boat system operates. Once the house banks eventually die, I will be moving toward a lithium install. Hopefully that 2+ years away.

Franco

 

[S. Todd]

Franco: Your 2019 may be different than our 2021 R29, but I would double think your idea that the charging from the inverter/charger goes through the switch and 300 amp fuse in the port side locker. In the paragraph just before your statement that said port side switch being off prevented the batteries from being charged, you state the AC breaker #1 was off which prevented the batteries from being charged. That first statement is consistent with our boat. It is my understanding that the port side locker switch and 300 amp fuse are for power going from the batteries to the inverter to run 110 volt ac outlets (i.e. you can turn off that aspect of the inverter to prevent unintentional discharge by an ac power use through the inverter). I will being going to our boat tomorrow and double check this understanding, but I believe our batteries have been getting charged with that port side locker switch being off.

 

[S. Todd]

I love your idea of putting PVC pipe sections under the battery tray to roll it out, just like they built the pyramids. I have moved mini-barns on 4" PVC pipes but never thought of doing it with the heavy 5 battery tray. Getting that 1.24 inches in height sounds like a lot however, but now I know why I have not thrown these broken archery arrows that I have laying around. Much smaller diameter and just as round. Even cheap 1/4 dowel rods would work.

 

[Alpina]

I love your idea of putting PVC pipe sections under the battery tray to roll it out, just like they built the pyramids. I have moved mini-barns on 4" PVC pipes but never thought of doing it with the heavy 5 battery tray. Getting that 1.24 inches in height sounds like a lot however, but now I know why I have not thrown these broken archery arrows that I have laying around. Much smaller diameter and just as round. Even cheap 1/4 dowel rods would work.

Actually not that hard to lift. You can probably get away with 1/2” pvc which is probably near 1” diameter. You need the thick walled version. I had some smaller diameter thin walled pipe but it crushed. The 1/4” dowels might not work. The trick is to raise it high enough to get the pipe past the center point. That creates a pivot point that lifts the rear of the sled as the front comes down. A few more pieces added as you roll it forward. Here’s the crow bar I used.

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[Bobby P.]

Franco,

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up.

Two quick questions:

1. Why did you mount the Victron at the battery site instead of mounting it just prior to, or after, the battery switch in the compartment in the cockpit?

2. Regarding the Sunpower 335... Can you simply swap out the factory solar panel with that and not change anything else. I'm really looking for a simple way to harness more solar power.

Thanks,
Bobby

 

[S. Todd]

Franco: I visited our 2021 R29S yesterday in its inside storage facility and confirmed that the batteries are being charged and the inverter battery switch in the port side locker next to the 300 amp fuse is off and has been off for over nine days.

 

[Alpina]

Franco,

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up.

Two quick questions:

1. Why did you mount the Victron at the battery site instead of mounting it just prior to, or after, the battery switch in the compartment in the cockpit?

2. Regarding the Sunpower 335... Can you simply swap out the factory solar panel with that and not change anything else. I'm really looking for a simple way to harness more solar power.

Thanks,
Bobby

1) Not sure I fully understand your question - it’s probably me. The SmartShunt took a little bit of trial and error to get it right. The examples they show for install are very simplistic. In the most basic terms, you have the negatives of the house and engine batteries connected. Then you have the negative from the inverter/charger, and ground bus bar connected to house batteries. I don’t think that it matters to which specific battery’s negative since they are all interconnected. The SmartShunt needs all inputs connected to one side of the shunt and all output to the other. This required reconfiguring the wires. I connected everything to see how it worked but ordered new cables from Pacer for a better and cleaner install (still waiting for them to arrive)

2) Kind of. You can use the existing wiring but will probably need a new solar controller but not 100% sure. I had planned on getting an MPPT controller anyway so I didn’t do a ton of research. The stock controller charges the house bank using 90% of its current and 10% for the engine battery. This can be configured differently. The MPPT can only charge one battery bank. But when the house is full, the ACR will provide current to the engine battery so the only think you lose is that 10% charging which is negligible on my stock system that out out 8A total.

Here’s a better explanation between to the two types of controllers.

https://www.renogy.com/blog/what-is-the ... 5ZEALw_wcB


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[Alpina]

Franco: I visited our 2021 R29S yesterday in its inside storage facility and confirmed that the batteries are being charged and the inverter battery switch in the port side locker next to the 300 amp fuse is off and has been off for over nine days.

Thanks. Let me check again with my voltage and continuity meter to make sure I got it right. I thought that the positive wire from batteries, through that switch to the inverter/charger was bi-directional. I only see one positive from the inverter/charger so I think the switch would prevent the inverter from receiving power but would also prevent the charger from sending power back to the batteries. Do you have the Kisae 2000 inverter/charger?


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[S. Todd]

Yes. Same charger inverter.

 

[Dave2016R29]

I have a 2016 R29 and have a related question. My thruster battery is dead. Engine hatch switch doesn't work as well. I think my engine hatch switch might have been stuck in the "close" position for an extended period of time. Fuse was blown at some point, but I am wondering if this might have run down the battery.

Previous response indicated that the thruster battery runs the bilge pump? Is this the case? (My bilge pump runs off the switches, doesn't seem to work automatically.) Does the thruster battery also run the engine hatch (the manual states that the engine hatch is "hotwired." Do all "hotwired" systems run off the thruster battery? Such as the carbon monoxide detectors?

Any additional insight appreciated.