Engine Battery Question

H

Helgerso

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
64
Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
This has happened twice after a night on the hook at the same spot - anchor down, engine and thruster batteries off and only the house battery on. We eat dinner, watch some TV and off to bed. The next morning we get up to take off, turn on the engine and thruster batteries and the engine won't crank (it tries but can tell there isn't enough power). I quickly turn on the crossover and try again and no problem.

I can't figure it out. The only contributing factor is that I left on the Garmin Plotter with the anchor alarm set. I can understand how that might draw down the house battery, but why when the engine battery is turned off would it drain overnight?

Thanks for the insight....
 
Check to see where your bilge pumps are fused. On my Cutwater its on my engine battery. I've seen these pumps get stuck on and that could weaken the battery.

Stuart
 
Bad battery? Test each cell with a hydrometer which you can get anywhere that sells auto parts.
 
Clean battery terminals also help.
 
It's an odd thing; only happened twice. When we are at the dock there isn't an issue. I will have to review the wiring diagram; the GARMIN may be attached to the Engine battery and thus running it down even when turned "Off."
 
Helgerso":2t10we7u said:
This has happened twice after a night on the hook at the same spot - anchor down, engine and thruster batteries off and only the house battery on. We eat dinner, watch some TV and off to bed. The next morning we get up to take off, turn on the engine and thruster batteries and the engine won't crank (it tries but can tell there isn't enough power). I quickly turn on the crossover and try again and no problem.

I can't figure it out. The only contributing factor is that I left on the Garmin Plotter with the anchor alarm set. I can understand how that might draw down the house battery, but why when the engine battery is turned off would it drain overnight?

Thanks for the insight....
Click to expand...

Hello Helgerso,

It might help the Tugnuts community to help you if we knew the model and year of your Cutwater. It's possible someone else has solved this mystery...then again, I could be full of...baloney.

Seriously, the age of the batteries and whether they are beginning to fail is one possibility. I would also look to the wiring which is somewhat complex on anything but the 21. Even so, it's critical for you to know WHAT is running off each battery and how/when each battery is isolated from others. Based on what your telling us, they are either bad batteries or the manner in which they are isolated is NOT what you thought (like the GArmin running off the start battery, etc).

Let us know what you find.

Fair winds,

/david
 
Sorry everyone. 2013 Cutwater 28....

Will also update my profile.
 
Have you turned the engine key off. I have inadvertently shut down the engine and then turned the key on to read the engine information and then (DUH) forgot to turn the key off. Next morning dead battery. 😳
 
Also, have the battery cells been topped off with distilled water?
 
I find this an interesting topic as we've had our 2014 C30 for 2 months, spent 8 nights or so at anchor (including 3 straight nights over the last weekend) and I'm still trying to sort out battery conservation issues. We have the AGM upgrade (4 house batteries) and Kyocera solar panel. Here are my observations/questions:

1. Despite leaving only the House batteries on while at rest, and despite the solar panel contribution, the engine battery lost quite a bit of its charge over the almost 3 days we were at anchor. I had no trouble starting but was concerned nonetheless. I did not use the key fob to turn the ignition to the "off"position, i.e. it would still start with the push of a button. Would this account for the loss?;

2. I had all 3 fridges (galley, cockpit and wine) in action. I turned the galley and cockpit fridges to 2-3 during the day and 1 at bedtime and the wine cooler to 10 C (50F). Lights and Fusion were used judiciously and TV only for about 1 hour over 3 days. I eventually turned off the wine cooler as I grew alarmed about declining House voltage. How many amps/hr does the wine fridge draw?;

3. I was tempted to use the anchor drag alarm on the Garmin (20 knot winds during 2 of the nights we were out last weekend) but didn't as I could see no way to turn the sonar off on the Garmin and couldn't find an answer in the manual. Is the sonar always active and if so how much does it draw? I did find out how to black out the Garmin screen with a quick tap to the power button;

3. I don't think I'm getting appropriate contribution from the solar panel. It maxxed out at .5 amps/hour on the RM-1 with the sun high in a cloudless sky in mid-June despite the house batteries dropping as low as 11.9 after 68 hours at anchor (at which point I started the engine, pulled up anchor and went for a 30 minute spin). Is this normal?;

4. With the main power switch (shore, off or inverter) set to the inverter position (but not including any device actually drawing 110 power), what is the power draw?

Thanks for your advice.
 
Aroos,

Can't figure out why your engine battery may have gone low because that should be isolated from your house items. However, after being 3 days on the hook with what you were using against the house bank, the results sounds pretty darn good to me. Mathematically, you should add up all of the items you are using and for how long and that should give you your total amp hour draw for a given period of time. On an over night anchorage I use about 65 amp hours. You will definitely use more between wine coolers and refrigerator. There is no way a single solar panel will keep up with that load. After 3 days on the hook I have to break out my Honda 2000 generator or fire up the engine and cruise for a few hours to get things topped off.
Incidentally, I rarely use my inverter. I tend to use the cigarette plug type inverters for computers and charging the iPad and cell phones as well as my c-pap. I feel they are far more efficient then the house inverter. If I am on the hook and need to use a strong draw appliance like the microwave, I start the engine and put on the inverter during the process and let the alternator take care of the load. This will help save the draw off the batteries. It also gives me a little hot water for clean up.
I hope this helps.
Mike Rizzo
 
Hello Arros,

I suggest you get a clamp on VOM (Volt Ohm Meter) with DC measuring capabilities. The first one I bought only measured AC, so I had to get another for boat use.

This is what I'm talking about:
41UOgi4Vw5L.jpg


Something SIMILAR to this, I mean. FLUKE brand is TOPS, but also quite expensive. Look on line and you will find units from $25-400 but you don't have to get an expensive one.

Anyway, clamp this puppy onto one of the cables on your START battery. If everyting is OFF and the battery IS ISOLATED, you should read ZERO amps. If your getting ANY amp readings, then you will need to do more detective work to see WHAT is consuming the amps. IF you get ZERO amps and the battery is crapped out in 3 days, well then you know you've got a BAD BATTERY.

NEXT, clamp this puppy onto the pos or neg cable of your house bank WHILE YOU HAVE YOUR STUFF RUNNING. This will give you an idea of the actual LOAD on the house bank. Adding up all the consumers will work too, but this way there's NO GUESSING because you are measuring the actual amp flow.

Wonder HOW MUCH SOLAR juice your getting? CLAMP this puppy onto the wire and SEE THE AMPS!

Wonder if your alternator is putting out the amps? Clamp this puppy onto the alternator output wire and SHAZZAM now you actually KNOW.

Are you starting to see HOW USEFUL one of these puppies can be?

NOTE: if you clamp the thing around a 2-wire conductor, like lamp cord with the (+) and (-) together, your VOM will read ZERO since the amps flowing in oppposite directions cancel each other. You must be able to clamp INDIVIDUAL conductors. They usually come with probes so you can still use it to measure VOLTs.

Let us know what you find,

/david
 
I have had similar trouble with the engine battery on my R31 (conventional battery with no solar panel). The only other drain on it is the propane sensor. I had the battery load tested and it is like new. This is a deep cycle battery, not designed for parasitic drains, if my understanding is correct from other tugnut posts. I wonder if the propane sensor is more of a load than is good for this type battery. I'm assuming the Cutwaters are wired similarly with the propane sensor on the engine battery. You might want to check this from the fuse/wiring diagram provided with the boat.
Can some of the smart electical guys on tugnuts advise how much of a drain the propane sensor is?

Tom

Indian Summer II
 
Tom,

You should check all your cells with a hydrometer. I was having problems one time with my house batteries and I checked each cell with a hydrometer. There were two bad cells in one battery and one bad cell in the other. I brought the batteries to have them load tested and they told me they were fine, which was contrary to the hydrometer test. I replaced them anyway and never had a problem since. There is no way that the propane sensor should drain the battery that quickly.
 
Thanks Mike, your answer makes sense. I need to look at the batteries, I think they are the sealed maintainance free type. May just buy a new one.
Tom
 
Tom,

Before getting a new battery unnecessarily, did you try and see if you have a parasitic draw from something other than the propane sensor that you say is hooked up to the battery? This can be done by putting a simple ammeter in series between the battery lead and the terminal post. You should see what the draw is by using this method. Another simple thing you may try is switching the battery with a battery that you know is good and see what happens with the good battery. If it stays charged then you will know it is a bad battery and not a parasitic draw.

please let us know the outcome.

Mike Rizzo
 
The propane sensor itself does not draw much. With the electric propane valve on it draws slightly more. According to the manual for the Fireboy-Xintex Propane detector/solenoid: It draws 55 mA max with the valve closed (off), and 75 mA max with the valve open (On).

This is 1.8 AH max per day with the valve open or 1.3 AH max per day with the valve closed, not a significant drain for a few days at anchor.

Howard
 
knotflying":2hpu3tvn said:
Aroos,

Can't figure out why your engine battery may have gone low because that should be isolated from your house items. However, after being 3 days on the hook with what you were using against the house bank, the results sounds pretty darn good to me. Mathematically, you should add up all of the items you are using and for how long and that should give you your total amp hour draw for a given period of time. On an over night anchorage I use about 65 amp hours.
I hope this helps.
Mike Rizzo
Click to expand...

Hello. My first post on Tugnuts. Brand new 3 weeks, C28 and I'm learning and exploration mode still. How does an owner determine, what each device is using, as advised above? This is a common sense piece if advice, and much appreciated. I have not been able to find operating draw on any of the equipment (manuals). Counting up the breakers is not the right answer due to start up draws. Short of buying a meter, which is not a big deal, but is a little bit of a hassle, does anybody know what draws what in normal operation?
Thanks.
 
Many of the manuals will have specifications which will tell you how many amps they draw. Also most equipment will also have it listed on the stamp . As an example, my c-pap draws 2.5 amps, so if I use it for 8 hours than it will have used 20 amp hours. If you are using something that shows how many watts it uses then you need to do a little math amps=watts /volts. So something that uses 12 watts would be using 1 amp ,12 watts divided by 12 volts. Also as you said you can use an ammeter on each item to see what it draws. So you need to take each item that you may be using on the boat and figure out how long you will be using it and then add up all the numbers. You don't necessarily have to be exact, but close enough to know that you won't be bringing you batteries down too low in their charge to cause damage. After a while you will figure it out and know how long you can go before you need to get the batteries charged up to full capacity.
 
Knotflying

Excellent. Thanks. I did not think to look at the ul plate or stamp. Some of the manuals don't say how many amps, and of course, some do. Thanks again.
 
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