Extended high RPM

Dave Patstone

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
20
Fluid Motion Model
C-26
Vessel Name
RITA MARIE
During the break-in period of my R25SC (first 50 hrs) I would quite often run at 3450 to 3500 RPM for 15 min or so. During this period I also established that WOT and properly trimmed is 3700 RPM.
My question is, can I safely run at 3600 RPM for an hour or so without engine damage to the Yanmar 4BY?
 
Dave:

You probably could run it this way however I'd suggest checking the owners manual to see what Yanmar recommends. If they recommend one thing and you do something otherwise and a problem surfaces down the road I always worry that how what I did could affect the warranty. Better safe then sorry to follow what Yanmar states in their manual, for the breakin period. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim F
 
It is my understanding that 80% of WOT is okay for running long term. WOT is okay for about 15 or 20 minutes every few hours. There is actually a percentage of time between WOT and 80% WOT. If I find it in my notes I will post it.
 
The manual for the 3YM30 has all the values for running that engine at normal cruise, fast cruise, etc. It says you should run full throttle for 5 minutes every hour to clean it out. Other than that, you should not exceed 80%. I agree with Jim you should check your manual for your engine, not only to comply with your warranty, but to make your engine last longer.
 
Under any operation that is less than continuous full throttle I do not believe you can hurt it. As long as you keep clean oil in it and it is not overheating it likely will outlast you. The limiting factor for these turbocharged diesels is usually the turbocharger exhaust temperature, not the engine itself. The engine has a governor that keeps it from over-speeding. Putting an EGT gauge on is necessary in commercial operation because the truckers, farmers, etc. normally are hammer down all day and need to know when to back off a little. We recreational cruisers usually go too far the other way and do not get the engine hot enough for efficient operation - which in it's own way is just as bad as hammering on the engine, i.e. cold stacking and sludging. I am bad about that, preferring to glide along at 6 knots all day long and often forget to wind it up every hour.

In contrast, we are combining beans right now. The diesel engine in the combine runs all day at full throttle and loaded down until the black smoke just rolls out of the stack. It has done that for 35 years. If the engine begins to overheat we slow down the feed rate of the grain just enough to keep it at 195 degrees, but the throttle remains at 100%.

As others have said, follow the engine manual and you will be fine. My point is, don't get too caught up in worrying about it. Diesels are by their very nature most efficient at full throttle. Keep the coolant temp and the EGT below the red line and you are good to go.
 
FWIW,

Some diesels are set up to be OK running at full throttle, but their horsepower output is limited for the size of their block. Marine ones are rated for "commmercial" "continuous" or "heavy" duty. Take the same block and fit it up to put out a lot more horsepower (sometimes 2-3X as much), and running at WOT for long periods is not OK.

Volvo's lineup includes blocks with "pleasure duty", "light duty", "medium duty", and "heavy duty" models, with correspondingly different peak hp outputs. Our Volvo KAD44P is "pleasure duty" rated, the lowest duty rating. It puts out about 71hp per liter of displacement (that's a lot). It's recommended to be cruised at no higher than 90% of WOT RPM. That would be about 3400-3500 RPM vs WOT of 3800-3900.

For such an engine it's particularly important that it be propped correctly, such that it can reach the mfr's recommended WOT RPM with a full load on board. If it's significantly over-propped, even 100-200 RPM short of reaching recommended WOT RPM, exhaust gas temps can be way too high when it's pushed to run hard, and premature damage is likely.

So, it's important to know if your tach is accurate, or how far off it is (check with a phototach). And be sure you can hit the recommended WOT RPM, with a full load. If not, you may need to change or tweak the prop.
 
Hi All ,
I've got a brand new Volvo D3 for my R25 . 3000 is the max rpm . Obviously it's not commercial duty , based on the fact that at 150 hp , and that's its many fewer ponies than higher output D3s , I would intuitively think that WOT all day long would not be an issue . Haven't done it .... Just supposing ....
Also , based on my experience with aircraft engines , exhaust gas temps are easily controlled with adjustments in mixture and that power settings have less influence than the mixture . Also with a water cooled head , EGTS should not be an issue at all in a marine engine .
I'm not a diesel expert or mechanic , so I'm very interested what y'all have to say on the subject !
 
Here's an excerpt from an article on Engine Life vs Engine Loading, and another article on Boost and EGT, from Tony Athens, one of the most knowledgeable experts on the boatdiesel.com website (probably the best place to go to learn about marine diesels and their issues):


When discussing engine life, I think... no, I KNOW, that the most significant part of the entire equation of vessel/diesel engine operation leading to long engine life starts with the way an engine is propped (loaded) during normal vessel operation (not during a boat sale "sea trial"). This is number one, but add to this that the average diesel boat operator or new boat buyer does not have a true understanding of the (his) application and engine loading in relationship to the engine that is installed in the boat... this is now the formula for premature engine failure. This is not because the vessel operator is "dumb," he just has not been properly educated this way.



What are turbo boost and EGT, and what are their relationships and importance to the operation of a diesel engine in a boat?

Following is a brief summary of my ideas and some data that I've accumulated over the years relating to the above, along with the operation of a boat and these operating measurements:

Boost

"Boost" is the positive manifold pressure (compressed air) created by the turbo-charger and/or super-charger. This piece of equipment is merely a specialized type of air compressor in which the exhaust gases are funneled through a turbine. In turn, this turbine is connected to a compressor wheel and as it turns at very high speeds, the compressor wheel creates the compressed air (turbo-boost.)

The compressed air is forced from the turbo into the combustion chamber and may pass through an after-cooler/inner-cooler on its way to the chamber. The amount of boost or manifold pressure that is created is directly related to the amount of exhaust gases produced by the fuel's combustion.

Diesel fuel requires tremendous quantities of oxygen to produce good combustion. Along with allowing the most efficient combustion, this large quantity of air is used to scavenge and cool (discussed below) all the components within the combustion part of the engine. Typically, in a modern turbo-charged diesel, air (oxygen) flow needs to be in excess 12,000 CFH (cubic feet per hour) per 100 horsepower produced. On a rough average, it requires approximately 5 gallons per hour to produce this 100 horsepower, which will equate to an exhaust flow of approximately 30,000+ CFH. This boost/manifold pressure/compressed air that is developed by the turbo is in direct relation to this exhaust flow, which is determined by the horsepower that is being produced, i.e., an engine running at no or very low load uses very small amounts of fuel and, therefore, has very low or no boost. A simple example would be removing an intake air hose from a modern Cummins engine and starting the engine. One would not notice any change in the start-up or idle characteristics of the engine, and even revving the engine up in neutral, there would be very little noticeable change in this type of operation. If the engine were then put into gear, as the throttle is advanced and more horsepower is asked of this engine (because of the prop loading,) a lack of combustion air would start to occur at about 1,000 rpm and black smoke would start to become quite noticeable (no boost.)

Since all boats have varying characteristics relating to the way the engine is loaded during operation, manufacturers do not publish boost curves in relation to horsepower and rpm. What they do publish is maximum boost at RATED HP and RPM.. This is why installing a boost gauge early in the operation of a new vessel will allow the individual operator to develop base line numbers for the particular boat. A typical planing hull boat, heavily loaded and transitioning from hull speeds to planing speeds, may indeed go through a speed range that requires substantially higher horsepower/boost than is needed to maintain the boat at a planing speed above this transition speed. There are many boats/engine combinations that would dictate the continued operation during this step-off mode be avoided as the engine is actually in an "overload" condition.

As the years have gone by, my experience with Cummins B and C marine engines has shown that the engineers have developed the turbo-charging technology to where boost pressures rise much earlier in the rpm/ power range without over-boosting at rated horsepower. In some engines, a "waste-gate" is used to keep maximum turbo-boost at acceptable levels. A waste-gate is merely a pressure-operated valve on the exhaust side of the turbo, which bypasses exhaust flow to control turbine speed/boost. These better designed "turbo maps" compensate for some of the unusual operating characteristics in a boat by allowing a much more controlled air flow through the different loading variables in different boats.

Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT)

Exhaust gas temperature is merely the temperature of the exhaust gases coming out of an internal combustion engine.. They are typically measured at the outlet port of the exhaust and temp probes can be placed before or after the turbo. When placed before the turbo, readings will be much higher and the reading will also show a much quicker change when a load-change occurs. The turbo extracts much of the exhaust energy (heat) and this results in this measurement difference. As I'm most familiar w/ the Cummins B's and C's, and the factory only publishes EGT #'s for measurements taken AFTER the turbo, I can only comment on factory #'s interpolated w/ field testing of over a hundred boats over the past 15 yrs or so.

EGT is also affected by engine load like "boost" but has a few other characteristics that make it an extremely important monitoring device for the operator who wants to use ALL of the HP he paid for, but also wants to be sure that his operation does not go "over the edge". Besides being affected by engine load, it is a gage that will tell you that your turbo is putting out enough boost to have efficient combustion and keep the operating temperatures within the engine from exceeding a safe limit. (Please understand that coolant temperatures do not affect combustion temperatures.) Some earlier Cummins B's & C's engines did not generate enough boost at mid-range/high load conditions and EGT could rise well above 1000 F in RPM ranges around 1800-2100, thus shortening the life of some components. This is where boost and cooling come into play. Higher boost at these lower RPMs not only allows more HP to be produced, it keeps EGT at a safe limit. Boost (higher boost) is a GOOD thing.


Now, imagine your new boat with twin high performance 300 HP turbo charged after-cooled diesels, and you are ready to start using the boat for its intended purpose. You know from the sea trials that everything seemed to run perfect, you've got the standard factory instrumentation and now you'd like to outfit the boat with all the goodies you have dreamed about.. During sea trials the boat hit 30 k's with your buddy and the yacht broker on board, had a ¾ full fuel tank and the engine went right to its rated RPM (3600) with a little extra.. Now comes the "wake-up" call.

It's been 3 weeks now and during this time you've added 1000 lbs of high dollar gingerbread, got your fuel and water tanks full, and you are loaded for bear (you not only have your 6 yrs accumulation of fishing tackle on board, your friends that are helping to pay the fuel bill have theirs too. This is when you need to have those other monitoring gages (a PYRO and BOOST gage) ready to go, as now it's time to start developing those base line numbers we've been talking about.

During sea trial, the boat seemed quite spunky. Although she is still performing well, instead of topping out at 30 k's, with an easy cruise at 23, she only hits 27 now at barely 3600 RPM and cruises nicely at 20. Had you had a boost gauge and pyro during the sea trials, you may have seen 34lbs of boost at 3650 with an EGT of 900 F. Cruising at 3,100 rpm (23 k's) the boost was only registering 14lbs (light engine load.) Now, with all the extra weight and a three-week old bottom, your 3,100 rpm cruise is only getting you 18½ k's, so now you need 3225 rpm to a comfortable 20 k cruise. Your boost now is 21lbs and your EGT is still reasonable at 825 F. Now, what can we do over the next few months with these types of numbers and how can they help us monitor the performance of our engine and be sure that we are not exceeding acceptable operating conditions?

As engine hours increase, air cleaners become dirtier, turbo blades and turbine housings become fouled, and hoses, tubes, and aftercoolers get oily. All of these conditions will contribute to lower boost pressures and higher EGT's at any given rpm/load. As time passes, boats seem to become heavier for a variety of reasons while bottoms and props definitely get dirtier. These two conditions lead to higher loading at any given prop rpm as the boat moves slower at the same rpm. These last two conditions lead to higher loads at the same rpm and will translate into higher EGT's in relation to previous boost pressures that were noted when the bottom was cleaner and the boat was lighter.

If a "turbo hose" develops a leak over time due to a defective clamp or chafing, the resulting air leak will show up as a rise in EGT with a decrease in boost. I've actually been on a couple of sea trials where a turbo pipe/hose would blow off at high speeds and besides the instantaneous sound of an explosion, black smoke would pour out of the exhaust before the operator could pull back the throttle. No boost.

That pyrometer gage (pyro) you installed will tell you when something is wrong probably better than any other gage you could have if you want to know when your engine is going to self destruct from being over loaded. That boost gage will be the guide to engine load for your boat and will tell you if you are getting the HP you paid for, along with establishing various engine loads throughout the rpm range.

Are these added gages for every application?? That's a personal choice, but with the high performance diesels that drive this market and are producing upwards of 1 HP/ cubic inch, (along with many of the operators of these engines asking them to produce in excess of 75% of their maximum power when "just cruising around",) I'd say one would be driving blind (without them) with a $50,000 plus engine room pushing his boat and operating his engines "close to the edge".


About the author

Tony Athens is our resident expert who looks after the Boatdiesel Cummins and Yanmar Forums. Tony's successful business at Seaboard Marine is based on his extensive experience on all aspects of marine engines, but particularly his repowering knowledge.
 
I have a really basic question.

I know my R21 is naturally aspirated (that is, NON turbo).

Which of the other tugs use the turbo charged diesels? All of them? Did any of the older model years use NA engines?

Thanks,

/david
 
Thanks everone for the input, I very much enjoyed the comments, especially the article on boost and EGT.
I had forgotten in my younger years I used to drive big diesel trucks, and we drove by the pyro. When pulling a big hill with a heavy load you shifted as much by the pyrometer as by the tach, keeping the temp down and the RPM up, all the while trying to get as much out of that underpowered "thing" as you could!
My R25SC is equipped with a boost gage but no pyrometer, that will change.
I know, when we bought the Ranger we said it's all about the journey not the destination, it's taking me awhile to achieve that attitude, there is still a bit of that little kid in me that says "I have a need for speed" lol
 
I was told that EGT was a big part of the "load factor" the computer reports and displays... now i am second guessing that. we have been a bit surprised how highly loaded our engine is even when just cruising.
 
As far as I know , we sold the only 75 HP Tug ever built in 2008 . The customer wanted a naturally aspirated 55 HP in his Classic 25 Tug , but the boats stringers and engine bed was not set up for that motor . The R 25s originally were offered with the 75 HP as the base engine and the 125 HP Yanmar as an upgrade . Both are Turbos. The 125 didn't meet the EPA specs for long and the 110 HP Yanmar did . There were quite a few 110s built before the Common Rail Cummins 135/150 era began. The Cummins era was followed by the BY Yanmar Common Rail 150/180 in 2010 , and the Volvo era started last year .
The R 21 ECs were Yanmar natural 28 and 30 HP until the Volvo replaced it last year . Its also naturally aspirated
That's a short history of the evolution of Ranger Tugs power plants .
Marc
 
wefings":24mvzhkv said:
As far as I know , we sold the only 75 HP Tug ever built in 2008 . The customer wanted a naturally aspirated 55 HP in his Classic 25 Tug , but the boats stringers and engine bed was not set up for that motor . The R 25s originally were offered with the 75 HP as the base engine and the 125 HP Yanmar as an upgrade . Both are Turbos. The 125 didn't meet the EPA specs for long and the 110 HP Yanmar did . There were quite a few 110s built before the Common Rail Cummins 135/150 era began. The Cummins era was followed by the BY Yanmar Common Rail 150/180 in 2010 , and the Volvo era started last year .
The R 21 ECs were Yanmar natural 28 and 30 HP until the Volvo replaced it last year . Its also naturally aspirated
That's a short history of the evolution of Ranger Tugs power plants .
Marc

Thanks Marc! So it sounds like all the currently offered engines in the R25 and larger are Turbo charged if I understand correctly.

/david
 
Turbo Charged and made by Volvo !
Marc
 
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