Lithium Batteries & networks

[iggy]

I just thought I would throw this out. I found it very informative and adding lithium may or may not be that easy. There saying that you need a BMS (Battery management system) to balance the batteries in a bank.

Also there is even a canbus network adapter than can run to your laptop or to your network. But I am thinking that most GPS/MFD units would not know how to display it since it was not programmed for it. They use J1939

For me this is new found territory. I would like to here the groups thoughts on this to shed more light on the topic.

https://lithiumwerks.com/valence-batteries/

 

[ohioan55]

I do not recommend using a standard lead acid battery charging system on a Lithium Ion storage battery. I would think this would make it difficult to manage the 2 with a system designed for lead acid. It may just come down the trickle charge feature as lithium cells don't need it. Check out the acticle.

https://enerdrive.com.au/2017/11/29/can ... d-charger/

 

[iggy]

I do not recommend using a standard lead acid battery charging system on a Lithium Ion storage battery. I would think this would make it difficult to manage the 2 with a system designed for lead acid. It may just come down the trickle charge feature as lithium cells don't need it. Check out the acticle.

https://enerdrive.com.au/2017/11/29/can ... d-charger/

That I think most of us get this one point. Since like AGM vs flooded they have a different charging profile.

My question and maybe for others. Is a BMS system needed or not and other than charging out the charger OR changing its setting to lithium, what else is needed? This to me is very important after hearing about how these batteries can cause a fire. Or am I wrong on this.

 

[BB marine]

I have researched this for a while now. We do not have a generator so adding additional Amp hrs and reducing battery weight in a weight sensitive boat would be an advantage. The cost of the Lithium batteries is much more than standard flooded and AGM. The advantage is the Lithium last longer or claim to last longer. If you plan on keeping your boat for 7 to ten years this may be something to look at. The next obstacle is charging the batteries. Yes the pro mariner says it will charge the batteries but at what rate. Lithium demand high quick amperage to charge properly. A 50 amp promariner is a 50amp charger with 3 outputs. The maximum output to a battery bank is 16 amps or 50 amps to 3 battery banks which could be 500 to 1000 amp hrs worth of batteries depending on how many batteries you have in a bank. Now the engine alternator becomes an issue, the lithium demand all an alternator can put out which in many cases will destroy the alternator. This require a battery management system that tricks the Alternator, a smart voltage regulator. There is much more to it but the gist of my conclusion is the cost is not worth it. If I installed a complete system I could invest the equivalent of a the cost of a generator. In 2 or 3 years if I decided to sell the boat the cost of converting to Lithium will not increase the value of the boat. It may even decrease the value of the boat if the new owner did not like the fact that when he needs to replace the batteries it is going too cost a fortune. So my take on Lithium at the present time is wait and see what comes out in the next 4 or 5 years. Maybe my next boat will have lithium batteries in it. For now I'm sticking with what I have.

 

[iggy]

I have researched this for a while now. We do not have a generator so adding additional Amp hrs and reducing battery weight in a weight sensitive boat would be an advantage. The cost of the Lithium batteries is much more than standard flooded and AGM. The advantage is the Lithium last longer or claim to last longer. If you plan on keeping your boat for 7 to ten years this may be something to look at. The next obstacle is charging the batteries. Yes the pro mariner says it will charge the batteries but at what rate. Lithium demand high quick amperage to charge properly. A 50 amp promariner is a 50amp charger with 3 outputs. The maximum output to a battery bank is 16 amps or 50 amps to 3 battery banks which could be 500 to 1000 amp hrs worth of batteries depending on how many batteries you have in a bank. Now the engine alternator becomes an issue, the lithium demand all an alternator can put out which in many cases will destroy the alternator. This require a battery management system that tricks the Alternator, a smart voltage regulator. There is much more to it but the gist of my conclusion is the cost is not worth it. If I installed a complete system I could invest the equivalent of a the cost of a generator. In 2 or 3 years if I decided to sell the boat the cost of converting to Lithium will not increase the value of the boat. It may even decrease the value of the boat if the new owner did not like the fact that when he needs to replace the batteries it is going too cost a fortune. So my take on Lithium at the present time is wait and see what comes out in the next 4 or 5 years. Maybe my next boat will have lithium batteries in it. For now I'm sticking with what I have.

All good points!

Most of the Promariner chargers will balance its banks. Meaning if you have 2 batteries and a 20 amp charger. If one bank only needs 8 amps and the other needs more than 15 amp. The charge will out 12 amps to the other battery for a total of 20 amps. As they put it "Distributed on Demand™ Technology
Automatically senses and distributes 100% of available charging amps to any one bank or combination of all banks"

Now thats a good point on the voltage Reg for the Alt. That I will have to look into.

Anyone else that can shed more light?

 

[BB marine]

Most of the Promariner chargers will balance its banks. Meaning if you have 2 batteries and a 20 amp charger. If one bank only needs 8 amps and the other needs more than 15 amp. The charge will out 12 amps to the other battery for a total of 20 amps. As they put it "Distributed on Demand™ Technology
Automatically senses and distributes 100% of available charging amps to any one bank or combination of all banks"

This may be true if the ACR's are disabled. If the ACR's are not disabled when one battery bank reaches 13.0 Volts for 90 seconds. The ACR closes and all battery banks are one bank so one 50 amp charger charging all batteries based on the total condition of all battery's. Lithium batteries fully charged will hold 13.3 to 13.4 V fully charged. A lithium battery at 20% capacity is still at 13V. This is a positive and a reason to use Lithium batteries but it also adds another change and cost in the present battery system. Battery isolation changes, you can't use the ACR's and higher output battery charger will be needed. If you have a 1220 Pro mariner 20amp Max you will not be taking advantage of the quick charge characteristics of the lithium batteries. A 60 amp charger would be minimal. 30 % of battery capacity should be the chargers capacity. Example a 180 amp hr lithium battery should have a charger with charging capacity of 60 amps. You can use a smaller charger output but if you are going all in with lithium you should set the system up to take full advantage. I would like to do it but $$$$$. To just spend the money on lithium batteries which is a lot of $$$ with hopes that the rest of the system work as is. Many say it will. But from what I have read ( I have no experience setting up a system) I have my doubts.

 

[iggy]

Most of the Promariner chargers will balance its banks. Meaning if you have 2 batteries and a 20 amp charger. If one bank only needs 8 amps and the other needs more than 15 amp. The charge will out 12 amps to the other battery for a total of 20 amps. As they put it "Distributed on Demand™ Technology
Automatically senses and distributes 100% of available charging amps to any one bank or combination of all banks"

This may be true if the ACR's are disabled. If the ACR's are not disabled when one battery bank reaches 13.0 Volts for 90 seconds. The ACR closes and all battery banks are one bank so one 50 amp charger charging all batteries based on the total condition of all battery's. Lithium batteries fully charged will hold 13.3 to 13.4 V fully charged. A lithium battery at 20% capacity is still at 13V. This is a positive and a reason to use Lithium batteries but it also adds another change and cost in the present battery system. Battery isolation changes, you can't use the ACR's and higher output battery charger will be needed. If you have a 1220 Pro mariner 20amp Max you will not be taking advantage of the quick charge characteristics of the lithium batteries. A 60 amp charger would be minimal. 30 % of battery capacity should be the chargers capacity. Example a 180 amp hr lithium battery should have a charger with charging capacity of 60 amps. You can use a smaller charger output but if you are going all in with lithium you should set the system up to take full advantage. I would like to do it but $$$$$. To just spend the money on lithium batteries which is a lot of $$$ with hopes that the rest of the system work as is. Many say it will. But from what I have read ( I have no experience setting up a system) I have my doubts.

I just tossed out the 20 amp charger to keep it simple. On my boat I disables the ARC when in the slip just for that reason. When underway, I enable them. Also of course, you must size the charger to the batteries and the power draw of the boat when at the slip.

 

[ixlr8]

I found this article that folks who are thinking of going Lithium might be interested in.

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

 

[Cutwater28GG]

in my opinion, if I was going lithium, i would

1. remove the ACR setup and moving to a DC to DC charging system for engine and thruster running charge from the lithium
house batteries and keep engine and thruster on lead.
2. upagrade the alternator and add a controller like the wakespeed.
3. switch out the promariner charger and seperate inverter for a victron energy combined unit.