Ongoing Trouble with Hydraulic Steering C-28

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J

JShaferSB

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
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9
Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
Non-Fluid Motion Model
Cutwater C-28
Vessel Name
Kari J
I took delivery of a brand-new 2016 Cutwater C-28 in March of last year. The steering has never been smooth (like the way that car steering feels), but rather "notchy". For the past year the steering always felt funny, and it bothered me (felt unsafe). As a remedy a month or so ago I topped of the fluid using the Westmarine brand with ISO rating that matched as per the recommendation of my dealer. I figured this would solve the problem.

This past Saturday I took my boat out for the first longer-range trip of the year -- from Santa Barbara harbor to Anacapa Island and was about 35 miles from home when suddenly I began experiencing complete steering failure. I could turn to the port no problem, but turning the other way the wheel would just spin (no hook up). I almost panicked as it really freaked me out. How in the hell was I going to get home?!?! :-(

I discovered that if I engaged autopilot I could steer, so I beelined it back to port. When I got close I slowed for a bit when I saw a whale, and my Garmin helm flashed an error message for a second - something about the hydraulic pump failing...

When I got back to the harbor and at slow speed I discovered that I was able to maneuver to get back into my slip thankfully. Yesterday I went back and topped off the hydraulic oil. It did take more surprisingly. I checked around the pump and could find no evidence of leaks.

Now I've got this problem, a practically brand-new $200k boat that I no longer feel safe taking offshore.

What am I supposed to do if I lose steering completely?

How do I fix this and regain confidence?

I am super disappointed as I have had many problems with my new Cutwater since purchase. I bought new thinking that I could have peace-of-mind for at least a few years, and now I am reluctant to wander far offshore..

Please advise.

Respectfully yours.
 
I had the exact same problem with my brand new 30CB. The steering never felt right - your descriptor "notchy" is a good one. This happened before and after the autopilot pump failed and was replaced. It was thought to be due to air in the system after the pump was replaced (so why was it there before the pump failure?). So a mechanic was sent out from the company to bleed the system. There were some problems with this procedure and after it was done the notchiness got better but did not disappear. Then the steering hub at the main helm station started making a humming noise at certain speeds and while we were out with a mechanic checking the new sound out the steering failed completely for about 10 seconds. Thank goodness for bow and stern thrusters or I would have ended up skewered into the starboard side of a boat in the marina. The steering hub was replaced a month ago and now all is well.
Have them check the autopilot pump (known to be a trouble spot), the steering hub at the helm and the shadow drive.

Good luck - I feel your pain. I was so frustrated I started looking at Lemon Laws regarding boats

I am still very shaken by this experience and am not at all confident about these boats' reliability.
 
I too have been experiencing steering difficulty's since my C28 was new (2017). Steers to the port great. Starboard turns often require two hands on the wheel and what I would consider excessive force.

Sometimes the wheel, during starboard turns, would feel "notchy" like described above.

I called both Andrew and Kenny at the factory and was told this is normal and caused by the offset of the rudder. Therefore, I never perused the issue further.

Makes me now wonder whether I am experiencing the prelude to a complete steering failure also...
 
Cessna172":3rtqoibr said:
I too have been experiencing steering difficulty's since my C28 was new (2017). Steers to the port great. Starboard turns often require two hands on the wheel and what I would consider excessive force.

Sometimes the wheel, during starboard turns, would feel "notchy" like described above.

I called both Andrew and Kenny at the factory and was told this is normal and caused the offset of the rudder. Therefore, I never perused the issue further.

Makes me now wonder whether I am experiencing the prelude to a complete steering failure also...
Click to expand...
dhdmorrison":3rtqoibr said:
I had the exact same problem with my brand new 30CB. The steering never felt right - your descriptor "notchy" is a good one. This happened before and after the autopilot pump failed and was replaced. It was thought to be due to air in the system after the pump was replaced (so why was it there before the pump failure?). So a mechanic was sent out from the company to bleed the system. There were some problems with this procedure and after it was done the notchiness got better but did not disappear. Then the steering hub at the main helm station started making a humming noise at certain speeds and while we were out with a mechanic checking the new sound out the steering failed completely for about 10 seconds. Thank goodness for bow and stern thrusters or I would have ended up skewered into the starboard side of a boat in the marina. The steering hub was replaced a month ago and now all is well.
Have them check the autopilot pump (known to be a trouble spot), the steering hub at the helm and the shadow drive.

Good luck - I feel your pain. I was so frustrated I started looking at Lemon Laws regarding boats

I am still very shaken by this experience and am not at all confident about these boats' reliability.
Click to expand...


This is really sad. I am so bummed.. How do I get this rectified??
 
Greetings,
I just posted last week about a similar issue on my R23, sluggish steering off the Cape, when I got to my destination I located the Fluid reservoir and found it empty. This was a weekend so I had to wait until Monday when West Marine opened to purchase the proper hydraulic steering fluid. I topped it off, went out and the next day I still had to add some more. The steering is much better, It still feels a little sluggish. I checked for leaks and could not find any.I was told it was an air pocket. The company monitors this site, so hopefully answers are forthcoming.

Juan
 
Hi JShafer and all,

I wanted to chime in really quickly with a few pointers on the steering systems. The first thing I would like to do is to encourage everyone with any issues to contact the dealer from where you purchased the boat so they can help as much as possible. They can help diagnose the system to find any underlying issues so that they can be addressed and repaired properly.

One of the first things to check is to ensure that the system is bled properly. This will help alleviate a lot of issues. One other issue in general on the effort required for steering is that Kenny and Andrew are correct. The "heaviness" that some people experience is indeed due to the offset of the rudder. This is to allow access for replacement of the prop zinc and for prop replacement. Personally, I do not find that as much of an issue, but can understand that it may not be to everyone's liking. What one customer had done was move to a larger helm wheel. This helped make the turning effort easier for that person.

One other issue to check, and I would recommend asking your dealer for help with this, is the Garmin GHP 10 pump to ensure that system is working properly. This is the autopilot pump that is located in the starboard lazarette on most of our boats. If you are experiencing issues where the boat will require constant steering to starboard to keep a straight heading even though you have no problems turning to port, you may have issues with the GHP 10 pump. This is easily diagnosed. The pump has three brass screws that will need to be turned in to their closed position for the test. They are easy to find on the head of the pump where the hydraulic lines enter (should be facing aft). Just turn them in until they bottom out and stop moving. Do not turn them hard. Once this is done, it will effectively remove the pump from the steering system. Then if all goes back to normal on the steering, the pump is the issue. This will allow you to steer the boat freely until repairs can be made. This is a good trick to know, should you have any issues out while under way and are experiencing issues. The only thing is that having the screws turned in will not allow the a/p to function. A small price to pay to get home safely and calmly.

One last thing, whenever the hydraulic pump stall message is displayed on the Garmin system, it simply means that the pump is not able to do what it is asked. This happens quite frequently when someone is using the auto pilot, whether simply on heading hold or running a route, and pulls the throttle way back to a near stop. If the actual heading of the boat is not what the autopilot is set for, then the pump will try to get the boat back on course. if the boat is moving too slowly, it will not be able to turn back to that heading, and the system will display this message. Simply disengaging the autopilot or allowing it to get back on its programmed heading will stop this. One other thing is to make sure the Shadow Drive is also enabled so that the skipper can take control of steering when the autopilot is engaged if need be.

Hope this helps for now.

Ralf H
 
I'm sorry to read that this is still happening to the C-28 and Garmin GHP10. I recently took delivery of a new-to-me used 2014 C-28 -- love the boat, not so much the steering/autopilot/Garmin in general.

Bringing it to its home port was a 10 hour delivery from Westernmost Lake Erie to the Cleveland area, and it became clear during this run that the steering had to be constantly corrected to starboard to maintain a straight track. This was not noticeable with the autopilot on, most likely because the pump is doing the constant correction as well. The wheel also did not have a "lock-to-lock" wheel rotation - you could just keep on spinning the wheel indefinitely so there was no way to know when the rudder was hard-to. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough about how the steering should "feel" on this boat to notice it during the sea-trial with Reed Yacht Sales.

After troubleshooting, checking the reservoir, ruling out leaks, etc., I came across a suggestion by Andrew Custis on this forum from years ago to close the three brass screws on the pump to essentially cut the autopilot pump out of the system. Reed Yacht Sales suggested I try this as well. This made an immediate (but not complete) difference. There was now a wheel-lock position at rest and low speed, and the required correction to Starboard at speed is still there but significantly reduced. It still requires some correction above 11 or so knots, so there must still be some pressure leakage past one or some of the valves.

I was in touch with Garmin tech support, and they agreed it is a known issue with the valve manifold on these pumps - something about either the valves not being strong enough for the hydraulic pressure on them, or some specific sealant used from the factory that gets loose in the system then gums up the valves. I appealed to their support that this has been a known issue, but it was out of warranty so the best they would do is knock $50 off the $400 replacement pump but not help with the installation. The price of the part is less worrisome to me than the proper (DIY) replacement and bleeding of such an important safety-related system on the boat. I have not bought the part yet because I'm still not sure I want to attempt the replacement and potentially put my family's safety at risk with a steering system that isn't rock-solid.

The bummer to hear from your story (and I'm sorry you're dealing with this too) is that in a vessel over two years later a system that has had known and documented problems was still being installed by Fluid Motion and sold by Garmin for this C-28 series (and maybe others?). Yours is still in warranty so I truly hope you get it resolved professionally for both your satisfaction with your boat, and for your safety and peace of mind.
 
Hi all,

Quick check in to add a little more information. I wanted all who are following this thread to understand that the underlying issue is only the GHP 10 pump, and not the rest of the steering system. If this should happen to anyone, please remember that this can be remedied and the system made to work properly if the GHP 10 pump is closed off as I described earlier. This will help get you back to port safely and allow you to use the boat otherwise unaffected until you have the chance to replace the GHP 10 pump. Also, Garmin has identified the issue and has made changes to their production so their pumps no longer have this issue, but there is always the process of getting those pumps out in the filed that still had issues identified. I'm sure this will be coming to and end soon and will no longer be an issue going forward.
 
Thank you Ralf for commenting on this.

Would you know when the upgraded pumps began being installed on your boats; and, is the problem in the C28's only?
 
Ralf H":2sha5a1j said:
Hi all,

Quick check in to add a little more information. I wanted all who are following this thread to understand that the underlying issue is only the GHP 10 pump, and not the rest of the steering system. If this should happen to anyone, please remember that this can be remedied and the system made to work properly if the GHP 10 pump is closed off as I described earlier. This will help get you back to port safely and allow you to use the boat otherwise unaffected until you have the chance to replace the GHP 10 pump. Also, Garmin has identified the issue and has made changes to their production so their pumps no longer have this issue, but there is always the process of getting those pumps out in the filed that still had issues identified. I'm sure this will be coming to and end soon and will no longer be an issue going forward.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ralf,

Would you mind expanding also on the "notching" people refer to in the thread. Is this also a problem with the pump?
 
I suspect I am not far from you in Ashtabula, Ohio. I had the same problem last year on our 2014 Cutwater 28.
The following is one of my posts:
"Turned the set screws in to eliminate the pump and the manual steering tracked like a champ. Garmin shipped an exchange unit. They also recommended modifying the Cutwater factory hook-up to the pump. Cutwater routes 3 lines from the helm to the pump manifold and 2 out of the manifold to the cylinder (5 line hookup). They recommend a T fitting to the pump in the Starboard and Port lines routing from the helm directly to the steering cylinder ..... and only the return line going from the helm to the pump directly. This allows manual steering as a safety feature without shutting the set screws. More work and bleeding of lines to come!
The boat had less than 50 hours at the time.
If it makes you feel better, the replacement procedure was not too difficult. They recommend a Loctite thread sealant for the fittings that I had to order...it is not available in any local auto or marine store. You loose very little fluid, but I did bleed the cylinders just to be sure ....and access through the under seat storage locker is tight. I also went back with the factory hookup, since the hydraulic hose they utilize that I would have to find to make up the recommended T was not available locally. Subsequently found out it is a Parker Hannifin product and you are in Parker world headquarters.
Have 100 + hours on the new pump and so far so good.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
 
Good to hear that garmin addressed the GHP10 problems. I have a 2014 C30, the pump was replaced under warranty and now 3 years later the pump is shot again.... very hard pull to port when travelling over 6 knots, almost unsafe.
My mechanic is recommending going to the garmin "smart pump" as he has lost faith in the original equipment, but it is almost triple in price. Does anyone have experience with the new pumps versus the original GHP10?
 
Good evening,
Soooooooooooo what is a smart pump. what's the difference between the pumps?
What does Garmin say about the difference?
Many of us would like to know!
Thanks,
Mike
M/V Elan
Cutwater 26
PS our third pump has worked fine, 700 HRS
 
Jeff58, sorry to hear you got hit with the same defective part it sounds like a lot of us are dealing with (some multiple times), and thank you for the description of your experience with the swap as well as the pointers, much appreciated. The 5-line hookup did throw me a bit because the Garmin tech manual I downloaded didn't show that as a scenario. I hear you though - if I can find the appropriate lines I may go for the "T" setup, but if not, in a pinch (for the time being) at least I know how to close the valves. Hope to see you on the lake sometime, may the winds be from the South so Erie is flat as glass for you - and several months before you have to put that home-made cradle to use!
 
I am also experiencing same problem with the GHP 10 pump on my 2012 C28. Garmin lists new pump at over $1000. Seems excessive since one could get a new setup for not much more. I did find a check valve kit ($200) I think one could install to isolate helm controls from the pump without closing the brass screws. Check valve would have to be installed in reverse from the Garmin installation diagram. Still debating if it's worth the risk of destroying my existing system to try it out. Anybody willing to weigh in on this one?
 
I am having similar problems with my 2014 C-28. The steering has never been "positive" - always either too "tight" or too "loose" or "notchy". Yesterday I lost most steering control (wheel would spin without stops) and only providing control intermittently. Returned safely to my slip and, upon checking the steering fluid, found the hub reservoir empty. Looked all over for a leak and could not find one. Filled the reservoir and turning the wheel from left to right, seemed to regain rudder control. Have not had a chance to try it underway. Any idea where the fluid went? P.S. I have auto-pilot but was not using it at the time.
 
Good morning C Folly,
We have a 2012 26 Cutwater with a Yanmar engine.
Three years ago we installed a Garmin autopilot & to make a very long story short Garmin has replaced three pumps.
Garmin put in a check valve with the third pump & put the system on a vacuum when installing the last one to make shur all air was out of the system.
After a year & a half we have had NO problems, Garmin has NOT charged us anything, outanding customer service!
We now have 750 hrs on the boat.
Hope this is of some help?
Mike
M/V Elan
2012 Cutwater 26
Yanmar 4YB engine
 
bails023":1e1wzue2 said:
I am having similar problems with my 2014 C-28. The steering has never been "positive" - always either too "tight" or too "loose" or "notchy". Yesterday I lost most steering control (wheel would spin without stops) and only providing control intermittently. Returned safely to my slip and, upon checking the steering fluid, found the hub reservoir empty. Looked all over for a leak and could not find one. Filled the reservoir and turning the wheel from left to right, seemed to regain rudder control. Have not had a chance to try it underway. Any idea where the fluid went? P.S. I have auto-pilot but was not using it at the time.
Click to expand...
The historical problems that you describe are indicative of air in the system. With this most recent event if you checked all of the fittings and no sign of leaks then what has likely happened is that over time the system has been purging itself. That means the air has been gradually migrating back to the reservoir(i.e. the steering wheel housing). So as air leaves the tubing it is replaced by oil from the reservoir. That's where the oil likely went(assuming no leaks). The good news is that your steering should get better if in fact the above is what's happening.
 
Thanks for the information. Took Folly out for the weekend and had no sign of the previous steering issue. I guess time in the healing shed works sometimes. I'll have to give the purging theory some merit. I was contemplating if cycling the brass isolation screws on the pump had any influence on the improvement. Need to put more hours on this one.
 
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