R21ec Faulty Bilge Pump Switch?

[Little Red Hen]

Hello Fellow Tugnuts: Wondering if anyone else has run across a problem with their bilge pump cycling forever and not shutting off properly? We seem to have a chronic problem with this, and it's a bit of an issue when I have the boat moored and it rains -- lots of dead batteries!

Every 2nd or 3rd time I run the boat, the bilge pump is on when I shut off the engine, and it won't turn off by itself. I can only get it to turn off by manually hitting the bilge switch and turning of house power. Something is awry. Could be user error (as I am prone to making errors), but could there also be a faulty switch issue? Any advice out there for me on how to fix this issue? FYI -- when we bought the boat in 2010, we ran into this problem immediately and replaced the bilge pump and batteries.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Barcy
Ranger 21ec
Little Red Hen
Port Hadlock/Mystery Bay, WA

 

[Todd]

Not sure what type of switch was provided on a 2010 R21. My 2012 R29 uses a solid state electronic switch with two probes. when they get wet the sensor notes the change in electrical resistance between them and starts the pump. Great, no moving parts in the switch to hang up, however if you get enough slime build up on the switch it thinks it is in the water and the pump runs. Have to clean the switch to correct the problem and it is not easy to get it out because it is attached to the pump, under the prop shaft.

 

[abcandjrc]

.......I can only get it to turn off by manually hitting the bilge switch and turning of house power.......

We may need some clarification here. What do you mean by "hitting the bilge switch"? Are you talking about the one in the pilot house?

If so, is it possible you are turning it on every time you use the boat? It is a "full on" switch that will run the pump as long as there is power. It should not be turned on unless you know the bilge is flooded and the sensor in the bilge has failed in the off position.

The on-demand sensor/switch in the bilge (should be) wired straight to the battery and should tend itself. If it has failed in the "on" position nothing you do to the switch in the panel or to the master switch should affect the pump. Only a dead battery will stop the pump if its switch in the bilge has failed in the "on" position (ed. 08/09 to clarify).

 

[Little Red Hen]

Thanks for the quick replies. I will look into the slime issue -- that could be it. Although, as you say, it's a bit tricky to get into that bilge pump area.

The first time this happened this season I thought that it must have been me accidentally flipping the bilge pump switch/button in the cabin into the "on" position. But after this happened every 2-3 times I go out in the boat, with me aware that the switch should be in the "off" position, I'm thinking it cannot purely be chalked up to pilot error. Will continue to research that avenue, however.

Thanks again!

Barcy
Little Red Hen
Mystery Bay, WA

 

[station 21]

We have had the same issue. The last time it happened, I unhooked the hose from the pump, flooded the bilge and put mouth to hose. After reattaching the hose, the pump cycled properly. Today, all was good to go. Just dumb luck, I guess. Eric

 

[K7MXE]

I have had to take out my bilge pump several times to clean the screen and also to reverse flush the output hose. I pick up fir needles. As I remember you can remove it quite easily by sqeezing it in the right spot and just lifts out. I have replaced the factory one twice over the years. Bob Heselberg in Eatonville Wa

 

[abcandjrc]

My point was that, as the OP described it, doing something with the master switch stopped the pump. That should make no difference if the float/water-level switch is jammed in the "On" position. The float/water-level switch should be wired directly to the battery and if it is jammed "on" it should not stop no matter how the master switch or the control panel bilge pump switch is set. Therefore, it sounds like the pump is getting power from a source other than the float/water-level switch. As described, that is where the problem lies, not in the float/water-level switch.

 

[Little Red Hen]

Just wanted to follow-up and close the loop on this issue. My seasoned repair/maintenance guy thought it was operator error too, but in the end he figured out that it actually was not my fault. I asked him to describe what he found so that others may learn from our experience:

"Your boat has an electronic float switch (no moving parts) wired to your bilge pump, which is directly wired to a battery. There is also an override (manual) on/off switch that powers the pump as well. This paddle switch is located to the right and below your helm station. There are a number of other switches located on this panel as well. Amongst other things, the horn, lights, and the VHF radio are powered from these switches. So here is the clincher in wiring it this way… There is no problem with this, except if the electronic float switch is in the ON mode, and allowing the pump to run. In your case, there was a slime built up on the electronic float switch sensors, and when your pump would turn on from the rain collecting in the bilge, the float switch would not turn off.

So… When the pump is running via the float switch in the on mode, and you go and turn on the manual bilge pump switch at the helm, it back feeds power to this row of switches at the helm. So even though the main on/off switch in the cabinet under this row of helm switches was off, when you turned on the manual override bilge pump switch, it back fed power to the other switches that were on. That is why you heard the “beep” of your VHF every time you toggled the bilge pump switch. Again, this is not a problem if the bilge pump is not already running due to a faulty or stuck float switch.

Our remedy? We will install one of the new “mini” Ultra Junior Float Switches in with your bilge pump. Comparatively, they are fairly expensive coming at around $135.00 but well worth it. We’ve seen all other float switches, electronic and otherwise fail, from something as common as slime on the electronic sensor types to failures of the Rule brand style float switches. Never, have we seen an Ultra Junior Switch fail, ever. We would also prefer to have a proprietary bilge pump panel independent of any other sources of power. The panel is clearly marked, “Bilge Pump”, and it has an “auto” setting, and a “manual” override setting."

Hope this clarifies.

Barcy
Little Red Hen
Port Hadlock / Mystery Bay WA

 

[abcandjrc]

What he said makes sense for the problem of back-feed (which you did not mention) but it still doesn't answer the question as to why shutting off the master switch made the pump go off. The pump should have kept running if the "sensor" was jammed "on" no matter how any other switches might have been set. I hate to keep beating that horse, but it is a fact, and replacing the bilge pump sensor does not fully answer your initial problem.

Nor would I spring for the "solution" when thousands of boats do not have the problem in the first place using the same setups. Get a rag and wipe off the sensor once in a while. I believe you will find other posts on here which discuss that. Much cheaper! As are other types of float switches. I had good success with the "rolling ball" type of switch. Here's one:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... hdVUX9AJoM

Now, that said, I recently discovered that the wire to the bilge pump switch on our R-21EC had been lightly crimped to its connector and was "floating around" under the panel. If the bilge pump wire happened to contact another switch that was on (or a positive buss) the pump would run, and turning off the master would stop it.

 

[RProffer]

I have had the same problem on my 2010 R21-EC. Every now-and-then the bilge pump will start running and not shut off. I have found that cycling the bilge pump power switch will turn the pump off. I have not noticed any sounds when I cycle the switch. I trailer my boat and when it is on the hard I remove the keel plug. You cannot trust a bilge pump to work when it rains. Besides, I would just as soon empty my bilge of any sea water. The bilge pump does not completely empty the bilge. I have not had a case of the bilge pump running when the boat is on the hard.