R25 Seaworthyness

S

Skeeter63

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Apr 26, 2009
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Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
Tug Owners --

I am looking into buying a R25. I live in Connecticut and would be boating in the Connecticut River, Long Island Sound, Block Island Sound and the Hudson River.

In addition I am contemplating taking my wife down the inter-coastal waterway (ICW) from Connecticut to Florida.

Will a nicely configured R25 serve me well? Is it too small for my wife and I? Will it handle 3-6 footers in a pinch? I just want to make sure I am not penny wise pound foolish....

Thanks much for any feedback you can provide!!!

Tim (860) 262-3518 email: timothy.symonds@me.com
 
Tim, only you, or your wife can answer some of those questions. Read this thread and you can get an idea of how one did on a 2800 mile ICW cruise.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=337

Charlie
 
Hi Tim,

We've cruised our R-25 up the Inside Passage here on the West Coast, and it has served us really well. In our experience, 3 foot seas are fine - as long as you aren't broadside to them. It can get pretty uncomfortable rolling side to side.

We've been in 6 foot as well - not something we would do by choice. We would run to the nearest safe harbor when the seas build that high.

Years ago, we kept our boats at Sprite Island - just off Norwalk, and cruised most summer weekends out to Block Island & the Great Salt Pond. Wonderful cruising area - except the season is just too short! I wish we had had our R-25 then - it would have been even more fun...

Mac
 
Tim,
The 25 Ranger should fit you and your wife like a glove. Literally and figuratively. We have found that it takes rough seas more comfortably than the C-Dory although more splash over the bow in a chop. 5 and 6 ft'ers is the most we have been in. It has more living space than our Pickup camper. After six months we are ready to go home. 😉
captd
 
The comment on what you're capable of and what you're comfortable with was very relevant.

Marine surveyors don't use the term "seaworthy", because unknown to many it doesn't refer to a vessel, it refers to a vessel, its equipment, cargo, captain, crew, and other factors. A vessel that is "seaworthy" in the ICW is not the same as a vessel that's "seaworthy" in the roaring 40's; a vessel that's "seaworthy" with an experienced (and sober) captain is not the same as a vessel that's "seaworthy" with a novice at the helm; and so on.

But lets compare the Ranger 25 objectively with my 20' Pacific Seacraft Flicka, one of the smallest bluewater cruising sailboats ever built. First of all, the Flicka has almost 2000 lbs. more ballast than the Ranger, and it is mostly carried 2-3 below the water. The beam-to-length ratio is considerably higher. It is a full displacement hull, and it does not have a flat section aft to enable planing. It has much less freeboard, a very low cabin roof, and all surfaces are rounded to minimize windage. The pilot is sitting aft in the cockpit, where there is less sea action. And it is built like the proverbial tank.

My point is not that the Flicka is a "better" or more "seaworthy" vessel, simply that to expect a Ranger 25 to behave like a Flicka in heavy weather would be naive and foolhardy.

The worst conditions I've had my Ranger out in were 4-5' seas, very short period, cross chop, with relatively light winds for these sea conditions (15-20 knots). This was right outside the entrance to my marina on a sunny day. It's worth noting that 3 30-40' sailboats were running for cover as fast as they could while I was on my way out, but I went out anyway because I wanted to see how the Ranger handled in these conditions.

Here are my findings: I couldn't sit at the helm, I had to stand in the passageway to the forward berth and hold on with both hands; everything not securely stowed (and some things securely stowed) fell down or flew across the cabin; I could hear the structure of the boat creaking and groaning; I had to time my turn very carefully not to get hit broadside, which would almost certainly have knocked the boat down; I had an extremely difficult time maintaining steerage and navigating the entrance to the marina on my return with a following sea (I had to use my throttle very carefully to maintain enough speed to steer while not going too fast down the face of the waves and broaching).

I wouldn't recommend that anyone who is not a very experienced boater take a Ranger 25 or any other vessel out in such conditions. Frankly, I think I was pushing the Ranger to the edge. No one on board would be having much fun in such circumstances, and I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't very close to a safe harbour.

All of that said, I am very happy with the performance of the Ranger. For a vessel of her size, weight, accomodations and a semi-displacement hull, she handled herself very well. I don't expect a power boat designed for comfort and speed to handle like a sailboat designed for round-the-world cruising.
 
Tim -

Please see my reply to the "Live Aboard Experiences" posting. To that I'd add that you'd certainly have to watch your off-shore weather windows coming south to the start of the ICW, unless of course, you plan to trailer it. My experience with 5' seas are similar to those of Ram on the previous posting - not fun! I too would prefer his Flicka in those conditions.

Although I have no experience on Long Island Sound, I imagine conditions there are similiar to the Chesapeake. We're comfortable with the R-25 here although we still watch the weather closely.

Bay Ranger is a good little ICW boat for us.

Ed
Bay Ranger
 
Ram's description of the water conditions: "4-5' seas, very short period, cross chop, with relatively light winds for these sea conditions (15-20 knots)" would be a SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY. No pleasure boater in his/her right mind should take a boat of the R-25 size and weight out in these conditions. We simply do not venture out of Virginia Beach when a small craft advisory is posted.

Sparky
 
Thank you all for your feedback! I really do appreciate it.

All your comments noted -- I am a fair weather boater. I plan thoroughly before every journey. But as all of you can appreciate I have had some of my worst rides when the sun is out and the breeze picks up. It seems to never fail when I cross Long Island Sound from Connecticut to New York in the morning it is smooth as glass...and when I return around six o'clock I have hit five footers...and with a planing hull that can be a very long ride back.

I have looked at Nordic Tugs and they seem a bit too pricy for me...maybe they will last a bit longer...but for the amount and type of boating I am doing I think the Rangers put out a great product with many options included in the price. It also seems that they really stand by their products. I just wish I had a dealer closer to home.

This will probably be my last boat...so I want to ensure I get everything the spouse and I want. She really is leaning toward the R29. I plan on going to Massacheutts soon to take her out on both and R25 and R29.

I am leaning toward the R25...it seems to be easier for her and I to handle as we get older.

Thanks again for all your feedback!

Tim
 
armyneo,

I'm working hard toward 72 years of age. I don't think I'd rule out the R-29 because of aging concerns. Tugs and trawlers are easier on us more seasoned sailors than some other vessels are. I single handed a small Albin trawler for a couple of years; it's very close in size to the R-29. I've also spent more than 30 years single handing sailboats in the 24 to 28 foot range and racing sailing vessels (as helmsman) up to 45 feet.

I think stability (lack of tenderness) is important as we age. Beam is a big consideration (along with other design characteristics) for providing a stable platform. My former Albin is more stable (less heeling and rolling) than either the R-25, or the R-21 EC, which I presently own. I like the handling of the R-21 better than the R-25, but feel they are both very safe boats providing one is prudent in their use. The R-21 is more difficult for me to use when I have to move around on it to handle lines, get up on a dock or step down from a dock. It's tender and moves around as my weight shifts. However, I don't have to move far to do anything on it. We've felt the R-21 is more suitable for the boating I'm currently doing. But, it's in a trial period, the wife says if it doesn't work we'll get the R-25. I neglected to mention to her how I'm lusting for the R-29. 😀

I find boats in excess of 40 feet in length to be very difficult for us to use at our age. The free board is generally high making boarding and getting off difficult. And it's a long way from one point to another on the vessel when sailing shorthanded, one couple. It's hard to see all the corners and sides of such a vessel and really hard to see anything up close, like a dock or a marker. Also, the area where I've boated and plan to boat has many places where vessels in excess of 40 feet are difficult to maneuver. They do tend to be more stable.

Good luck,

Gene
 
A few weeks ago I posted that no sane boater would go out in a Small Craft Advisory.

Well, yesterday we were apparently not sane. We weekended with six other boats from our Yacht Club in the lower Chesapeake Bay (a couple large sailboats, a 28 Bayliner, a larger trawler, etc, no other Tugs), and needed to get home across the 25 mile stretch of the Bay. Other boats went ahead and assessed the situation as "do-able" so we set out. Once we left the channel from the marina there was really no going back as that was an awful stretch.

The Forecast: 20 knot winds and 3-4 foot seas, the highest we would normally feel comfortable with.

The Reality: Winds averaged OVER 25 knots, often over 30 knots according to the folks with the gear to know. Seas averaged 5-6 feet with some up to 8. One wave caught us on the starboard side and went over us. Luckily the hatches were closed (except for the bathroom....which luckily drains to the bilge!) Numerous other waves had the potential to do the same, and maintaining steering and staying on course was a workout.

It was a 25 mile trip, took us 3 1/2 hours, we kept the RPMs at 2000-2100 which put us around 6 knots but when pushed by the tide we often hit 9 -10 knots. I did an hour of the driving.

To my husband it was "difficult". To me it was downright scary and something I would not do again if there were any other choice. And we did have a choice - we could have left the boat at the marina and gotten someone to drive around and get us. Next time I would take that option.

The boat fared well, we never really feared that the boat could not handle the waves, but the possibility of getting rolled was very big. We did not use the trim tabs to keep the bow down as we did not want to plow down into a trough. We had stowed as much gear as we could but a few things went flying. I did an hour of the driving. I did have my inflatable life jacket on, and in conditions like this keep a waterproof handheld VHF radio zipped in its pocket (see jackets from Stormy Seas in Poulsbo, WA, they are the best). Joe hit the A/C panel and broke the Shore Power breaker switch (which btw is $65 at west marine...). All of the boats in the fleet suffered some form of minor damage.

So, seaworthy? Yes. Knowing you paid your boat insurance recently? Great. Avoiding boating during Small Craft Advisories? Priceless.

Oh, and we only used 5.9 gallons of fuel!

Sparky
 
Sparky --

That is incredible. This is exactly what I was interested in...having an appreciation for what the vessel can do when conditions change rapidly and you are caught off guard.

My wife Olga and I are looking at purchasing an R-25 or R-29. We were thinking about a Nordic Tug...but now are leaning toward a Ranger.

We are going to be attending the Trawler Fest in Greenport, NY to take a look at what is out there in the market...evaluate pros and cons, etc.

I really appreciate your feedback! Thank you!

Tim

sparky":16ckf58q said:
A few weeks ago I posted that no sane boater would go out in a Small Craft Advisory.

Well, yesterday we were apparently not sane. We weekended with six other boats from our Yacht Club in the lower Chesapeake Bay (a couple large sailboats, a 28 Bayliner, a larger trawler, etc, no other Tugs), and needed to get home across the 25 mile stretch of the Bay. Other boats went ahead and assessed the situation as "do-able" so we set out. Once we left the channel from the marina there was really no going back as that was an awful stretch.

The Forecast: 20 knot winds and 3-4 foot seas, the highest we would normally feel comfortable with.

The Reality: Winds averaged OVER 25 knots, often over 30 knots according to the folks with the gear to know. Seas averaged 5-6 feet with some up to 8. One wave caught us on the starboard side and went over us. Luckily the hatches were closed (except for the bathroom....which luckily drains to the bilge!) Numerous other waves had the potential to do the same, and maintaining steering and staying on course was a workout.

It was a 25 mile trip, took us 3 1/2 hours, we kept the RPMs at 2000-2100 which put us around 6 knots but when pushed by the tide we often hit 9 -10 knots. I did an hour of the driving.

To my husband it was "difficult". To me it was downright scary and something I would not do again if there were any other choice. And we did have a choice - we could have left the boat at the marina and gotten someone to drive around and get us. Next time I would take that option.

The boat fared well, we never really feared that the boat could not handle the waves, but the possibility of getting rolled was very big. We did not use the trim tabs to keep the bow down as we did not want to plow down into a trough. We had stowed as much gear as we could but a few things went flying. I did an hour of the driving. I did have my inflatable life jacket on, and in conditions like this keep a waterproof handheld VHF radio zipped in its pocket (see jackets from Stormy Seas in Poulsbo, WA, they are the best). Joe hit the A/C panel and broke the Shore Power breaker switch (which btw is $65 at west marine...). All of the boats in the fleet suffered some form of minor damage.

So, seaworthy? Yes. Knowing you paid your boat insurance recently? Great. Avoiding boating during Small Craft Advisories? Priceless.

Oh, and we only used 5.9 gallons of fuel!

Sparky
Click to expand...
 
Tim and Olga

Glad I could help. Here are some additional thoughts
1. I don't think the R-29 would have handled much differently in these conditions. We talked about it when we came home. Husband figured we would have needed much more than 30 feet to make an appreciable difference yesterday. And we like the economy of the R-25 for dock prices, insurance, original purchase price, etc. Even though I have packed my R-25 to the hilt with stuff, I know I would have the R-29 just as packed. You always fill up every inch of space no matter what the size of the boat!
2. Take a look at the layout of the Nordic 26. In yesterday's conditions there would be no safe way for me to have either gone down those steep steps to the galley (and I noticed a total lack of handholds on that boat) to get a beverage (we could not go 3 1/2 hours in 85 degree weather without hydration) or use the restroom (though that was a challenge anyway...). The single level in the Ranger to me is a great improvement over the Nordic design.

Still glad we chose the R-25
Sparky
 
Your story sounds familiar, been there many times. In fact, I grew up on the Bay and was caught out many times in conditions such as you described as a child (with my parents, in a 20' cabin cruiser). It can blow up at least as fast and even more out here in the Pacific NW. We have winds here called Qualicums and Squamishes that can go from 0 to 80 knots in a matter of minutes. That's why I was "foolhardy" enough to take my Ranger out under relatively controlled conditions, and alone, to see what it is capable of. I don't want to find out what it's NOT capable of when my wife and son are on board. Every boat has its limits. Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
All one has to do is look at the side profile of the R-25 and see the amount of hull, superstructure, radar, anchor-chain-&-windlass, kayaks stowed on the roof rack etc. that are located well above the waterline to come to the conclusion that the R-25 would tend to have a propensity to roll markedly in a beam sea. With the batteries, generator and AC unit plus all the items one has stowed it the kiddy cabin located on the port side, the R-25 is a bit more tender during a port roll with the wind and waves on the starboard side.
Henry
 
ram, you are absolutely spot on with your choosing to test the boats limits under controlled circumstances,, i have done the same with christina bee, in the san juans, where there is a lot of skinny water.... better to know what your vessel can do than find out what it can't when there is more to worry about than ones self,,, hope to meet you in sept ,, steve,, gotnoclue
 
re Sparkys post

Almost every day on San Francisco bay from June to September, there are "small craft warnings" posted. Mornings and evenings are usually calm. Lots and lots of boats....power and sail enjoy the beautiful bay every summer day especially week ends.
What's one mans pleasure is another's poison.
 
Experience is what keeps you from making mistakes - again.
I have posted this before - my experience.
Went across the Detour Passage in a hard blow with the wind against the current. (this is the discharge channel of Lake Superior called the St. Marys River - which is a misnomer similar to the Niagara River.)
The electronic buoy 5 miles up the passage was reporting 7 footers on a short cycle.
The only reason I tried it was the knowledge that I could turn and run back behind an island by staying in the trough of a wave.
Other than a couple of 700 foot freighters that went by (close by - and they move really fast going down stream) we were the only boat in the passage.
We had green water going completely over the bow, over the cabin, and crashing down on the bimini. Every item in the cabinets was ejected into the companionway (great for reorganizing later). Half the contents of the Cave were regurgitated into the companionway. The bedding in the vee berth was ejected into the companionway. There was no drinking of anything or going potty - physically impossible. I spent two and a half hours rapidly spinning the wheel from lock to lock. I was completely exhausted at the end. I could not have gone another half an hour.
Under those conditions a 7 foot wave has a deep hole hole directly behind it. Looks like a mile down there as you tip over the crest and slalom down the slope and crash the bow into the bottom.
The prop would come out of the water on the top of every wave.

My analysis - later when I was able to think - is that the boat will take several times more than what I can take.
The rudder is not nearly big enough.
I don't remember creaking or groaning but then the roar of the wind and rattle of everything inside the boat being in a cement mixer would drown that out. In the brief one second at a time I could hear the boat, only the steady purr of the engine was noticeable. I was holding just a hair over 1200 rpm and the engine seemingly could not have cared less about the boat bouncing around.

I'm glad I did it. I will never, never, do it again.
 
Thanks for posting again! That's about as dramatic an example as I can imagine of what the boats will do better than most or all of their people can . . . sure conjures up the images. Yikes!

Gini

(P.S. From a design/engineering standpoint, I'm sure there would be an answer to this that Dave Livingston could provide, but can't help but wonder why the rudders aren't bigger -- steerage would better in any number of circumstances, and it sure seems that there is room for a larger rudder.)
 
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