Repair Shop Advice Needed

[daviduphoff]

I'm sure a few of you know of my dilemma at the Poet's Cove event the first week of June. We left Anacortes an hour or so before the rest of the group that was leaving Cap Sante as out 21 goes just a little slower than you speed demons in your 25, 27, 29, and 31 Rangers. We headed to Poet's Cove at warp speed and along the way met up with Bob and Nita that had picked up a fuel filter at the Yanmar dealer at Skyline. This was just a fluke as I installed my spare and wanted another. There were no filters available in Portland. Bob and Nita headed off for Friday Harbor and we kept going to Poet's Cove. Eventually everyone passed us and thanks to Bruce on Moondance and his AIS transponder we checked in on him every few minutes and marked waypoints. Who needs charts when you can follow someone even from miles behind?

Well all went well until we pulled up to the customs dock at South Pender. I throttled down and my engine died. We did all we could to get it to restart. The gang at Ranger did all they could along with a mechanic working on the boat next to mine. We came to the conclusion that not enough fuel was getting to the injectors even though we replaced the filters (thanks to Bob and Nita). I ended up pulling the lines from the injection pump to the injectors and holding clear plastic spoons over the fittings and there was almost no fuel for the number two cylinder. Certainly not enough to run that little three cylinder engine. I also have to say the folks at Yanmar in Canada and the Yanmar distributor in Seattle were also very helpful. We spent hours on the phone with all of them.

We had a very pleasant tow from South Pender to Cap Sante thanks to recently purchased Boat US saltwater towing insurance. Perhaps I was being a bit sarcastic when I wrote pleasant. There were five to six foot seas and I had to sit on the rear seat with a manual bilge pump as the electric one could not keep up. The dogs hid in the bow. I kept telling Ricki the boat was insured if it sank. She didn't see the humor in it. This is where I put a plug in for Boat US towing insurance. If you don't have it get it today!!!!!

Fast forward a couple days. We arrive back in Portland and I removed the fuel injection pump. I then sent it off to Bellingham to be be rebuilt at a shop recommend by many including Yanmar. This took a while, almost a month. Most of the time was spent waiting for parts to arrive from Yanmar in Georgia. Eventually the pump was back in my hands in Portland. This was sometime in July.

Mind you my boat has been listed with a broker the entire time as Ricki thinks we need a bigger tug and she also said we have a three boat limit at our house. I can't bring myself to sell the Ranger 18 or my 1966 Correct Craft "Barracuda" that I have had for about 25 years.

Now that you have a little information here comes the part where I need advise...

In July my boat and the injection pump were delivered to a "Yanmar Authorized" repair shop here in the Portland area. I told them I was not in a hurry as my other Ranger was in my slip and I was plenty happy using it. If you think people ask about your tugs try an 18. There are times I want to go stealth. That being said a couple weeks passed and I inquired as to the status. They said they had not gotten to it as I said no hurry. I concurred. July passed and at some point they began working on it. I was told I removed the pump incorrectly. There is one bolt on a shaft that is part of the injection pump that needs to be removed. I removed that bolt plus the four bolts that attach the gear that attached to a mount that slips over the shaft. The mount has a key way and the shaft is keyed so as to keep the pump timed with the engine. The pump and the gear and mount were then taken to a fuel injection shop here in Portland and with the use of magnification the put the gear back on the mount. At this point the pump went back to the Yanmar shop. A few more days passed and I stopped by to check in on the boat. I was told they were having trouble getting the engine timed. I asked if that was not why we had the pump at the injection shop and they said yes. From what I learned from them and Yanmar the engine had marks on the gears in white paint that are timing marks and should line up as the engine spins. The shop claimed that the timing marks were off as time passed.

I really started applying pressure to get it done as the rendezvous approached. Needless to say about a week before the rendezvous they decided the problem must be the injectors. They pulled them and they were rebuilt within a couple days. When removing the injectors the return line that connects them broke and had to be ordered from Yanmar. They got the line and installed it along with the injectors and the boat would still not run. They tinkered and messed with the timing and got it running. At this point the rendezvous had come and gone.

While at the rendezvous I received a second offer on the boat which I accepted. At this point the boat was still at the Yanmar shop. Of course the offer was pending a river (sea) trial. Late September / early October the boat made it into the water. The buyer went out with the broker. The boat died twice. It also smoked like a coal powered steam engine according to the broker. It also made a horrible clanging noise. The mechanic looked at it. He thought it just needed to be run and perhaps had bad fuel. Last week (Oct 18) I took the boat out on the river. I put 45 minutes or an hour on the boat. I kept heading upstream from my marina as I figured I could get back in with a paddle if i had to. I also kept to the shore. Well eventually the boat died after a few runs up and down the river. I got over to the breakwater at the marina next to mine and tossed a line around a spike on the breakwater. I called Boat US and asked about a tow. I spoke to the captain on the tow boat. I said I was tied up and out of danger. He said he would be there in 15 minutes. We spoke and I told him to finish his dinner and head over when he was done. I drained the fuel water seperator and it was pretty clean. I also checked the engine filter. I used the lift pump and blead the filter. I tried to start the boat. No luck. I checked for fuel slow on the return line and had fuel. I tried to start the engine again. No luck. I waited and tried at half throttle and bingo. About this time the tow boat arrived. He side tied and we spoke. We decided that I would try to run back in and he would follow. At his point it was feet not miles. I got back to the slip throttled down and it died just like at South Pender.

The next day I met with the broker at the boat. We called the mechanic and he came down. The mechanic was still convinced the boat had bad fuel and did not want to work on it until it had fresh fuel. He also mentions he would like to get paid. I suggested it would be nice if the boat ran first. We had a few more words about payment. I agreed I would pump the tank dry and add fresh fuel. I pumped it dry and added five gallons of fresh fuel with some Standyne. I then ran this fuel through the fuel water seperator and back to the return with an auto electric fuel pump. After this I hooked the tank back up the engine. I ran it for a few minutes and let the return run into a fuel can. I will admit that it did run a little better with the fresh fuel but it still made a ton of noise. Mind you I have put almost 200 hours in the engine from August 2013 to June 2014. I know what it sounded like at all speeds.

A couple days later I was making a delivery close by and stopped at the boat to run it for a while. While running it It started leaking oil right above the oil fill. I noticed a small crack in the front engine cover that is also part of the oil fill. On Sunday (10-26) Parker and I went down to the boat and spent about 4 hours cleaning the bilge. I also used some JB Weld on the small crack. I ground out a groove and cleaned off paint etc.

Today I went down to the boat to check on my repair. It just so happened that another marina tenant I know rather well was walking buy and stopped to check on my progress. He looked at the JB Weld and thought the repair looked great. I asked that he watch and I'd fire it up. We ran for a couple minutes at about 1200 RPM. All looked great except the engine was still making a ton of noise. I bumped it up to about 2500 RPM and all of a sudden there was oil everywhere. We looked at the engine and it was coming out of a new hole in the cover about the size of a fingernail. We stuffed oil diapers under the engine and in the bilge. Lots of oil. We then removed the inspection cover that is over the gear for the injection pump. There was one of the bolts that hold the gear on the mount just laying there. There was no way it could have come out as it was too long to come out with the cover on. I think the noise was this bolt flopping around. The crack and the hole came from the impact of the bolt.

So with all this information in mind here are my questions. Please keep in mind the repair took from July to October. I had two sales fail as the boat would not run.

How much of the original invoice of $2900 should I pay? This was $2100 labor and $800 Parts. Actually it was only $600 parts as I paid for one of the two injector rebuilds as I picked them up to return them to the Yanmar shop hoping I would make it to the rendezvous. So in reality it was $2700. I was thinking $1500 plus the parts before the most recent disaster. My thinking is it should not take almost 4 months to perform 21 hours of labor.

My next question is do I owe any part of the second repair to be performed as it was clearly an error on their part?

If you don't feel like posting a response please PM me.

Needless to say I still have a 21 for sale if anyone is looking. No warranty of course.

 

[Levitation]

Well, as a fellow Tug owner you have my total sympathy.

As a former repair shop owner (sigh) you have my chagrined smile as I try to explain the facts of life to an unhappy vehicle owner.
1. You owe me for time and materials.
2. No mechanics shop can guarantee results. There are parts/engines that cannot be "fixed" and will need a complete overhaul or even a replacement part/engine.

3. Here it gets murky. You apparently self removed the injection pump. Was told that you did something incorrectly. There was a long delay of some sort or other - sorta like the story line from General Hospital. The pump was reinstalled (by the mechanic I assume) and there was confusion/problem over the timing of the the pump to the camshaft. When restarted the engine made banging noises but you (they?) kept running it. You ran it till it beat a crack into the front engine cover which you then proceeded to "fix" with the marine version of Duct Tape (epoxy). Then you ran the engine which continued to hammer itself internally and you solved that by laying on the throttle until it beat a hole through the cover. You then started a disassembly and discovered one of the bolts holding the drive gear for the pump had been flailing around all this time.

Wow. Where do I begin :mrgreen:
When I was in the business we refused ANY job where the customer had laid so much as a hand on it much less been swinging wrenches - before dumping the mess into our laps. Those jobs always turned into a customer throwing a hissy fit until we finally got religion and held a smoking cross in the door to turn them away.
Next, one of the reasons we did not let customers take things like distributors, timing chains, injection pumps, off an engine is because they do not understand the crucial step of marking (with indelible punch marks and/or photos) the timing of the parts/gears. Now I'm assuming the mechanic finally had the injector properly timed because the engine ran. Generally, if they are off it either runs backwards or not at all.
Now, assuming the mechanic did the entire reassembly of the pump and installing it back onto the engine (including the bolt from Thor's Hammer) he is responsible for the loose bolt and owes you for the new repairs. But if you had your fingers on that bolt, even momentarily, then it is your mess.
You still owe him for time and materials up to the point of your flogging the engine.
I suspect he will point out that you kept running the engine until it failed negating any responsibility he might bear.

This is a fine mess and a cautionary tale for both owners and mechanics.
Sorry. I would like to take your side 100%, but both of you need to be keel hauled.

 

[bbrh842]

I think there are good lessons in this parable for all of us. Thanks for sharing.

 

[daviduphoff]

1. You owe me for time and materials.

I agree I owe for time and materials. BUT, do I owe for research time? I brought the boat to the "Yanmar Authorized Service Center". My thinking is that they should know what they are doing, after all the mechanic explained that they had been to Yanmar school. Here is an example of my thought process. I hired someone do do some work on a website. The task was very specific and required changing some code in a shopping cart. The person I hired thought he could do it. He did not have any success. He agreed I should not pay him and I found someone else to do the work.

3. Here it gets murky. You apparently self removed the injection pump. Was told that you did something incorrectly. There was a long delay of some sort or other - sorta like the story line from General Hospital. The pump was reinstalled (by the mechanic I assume) and there was confusion/problem over the timing of the the pump to the camshaft. When restarted the engine made banging noises but you (they?) kept running it. You ran it till it beat a crack into the front engine cover which you then proceeded to "fix" with the marine version of Duct Tape (epoxy). Then you ran the engine which continued to hammer itself internally and you solved that by laying on the throttle until it beat a hole through the cover. You then started a disassembly and discovered one of the bolts holding the drive gear for the pump had been flailing around all this time.

I think you summed it up. What was not clear was that I removed the pump with the mechanics blessing as they did not want the boat at their shop the whole time the pump was rebuilt. I was not the first one to run the boat. The broker and the mechanic were. The broker mentioned while they were out that it never made that much noise before. (and yes THEY kept running it. The broker then went out with the buyer as I mentioned. The mechanic then went back to the boat an ran it again. I just happened to be the unlucky one that happened to be at the boat when the bolt was struck just right and broke the cover. The mechanic must have been running the boat when the tiny crack developed.

When I was in the business we refused ANY job where the customer had laid so much as a hand on it much less been swinging wrenches - before dumping the mess into our laps. Those jobs always turned into a customer throwing a hissy fit until we finally got religion and held a smoking cross in the door to turn them away.
Next, one of the reasons we did not let customers take things like distributors, timing chains, injection pumps, off an engine is because they do not understand the crucial step of marking (with indelible punch marks and/or photos) the timing of the parts/gears. Now I'm assuming the mechanic finally had the injector properly timed because the engine ran. Generally, if they are off it either runs backwards or not at all.
Now, assuming the mechanic did the entire reassembly of the pump and installing it back onto the engine (including the bolt from Thor's Hammer) he is responsible for the loose bolt and owes you for the new repairs. But if you had your fingers on that bolt, even momentarily, then it is your mess.
You still owe him for time and materials up to the point of your flogging the engine.
I suspect he will point out that you kept running the engine until it failed negating any responsibility he might bear.

This is a fine mess and a cautionary tale for both owners and mechanics.
Sorry. I would like to take your side 100%, but both of you need to be keel hauled.

Furthermore I did note the factory marks on the gears and I did have photos. This is how it was reassembled. I should have mentioned this. I can tear down a Ford FE in my sleep and reassemble it the next night while sleeping. This is not my first trip to the rodeo. The mechanic did the entire reassembly. What irritates me is that every time we spoke I mentioned the excessive noise.

The broker and I pulled the boat from the water today and delivered it to the mechanic. He is going to bear the cost of the repair caused by Thor and sons.

My question remains. How much of the 21 original hours do I owe?

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

David. First of all I'm sorry to read about your tugs mechanical problems, hope they get fixed soon. I may have missed this part but has the mechanic shop asked you to pay for the entire 21 hours? If so then it appears you have some negotiating to do. If not then after going over the situation one more time, ask him or her what they think would be fair if they were in your shoes. It may not get you anywhere but it certainly will get them to think of what they would want to happen if they were in your shoes.

Keep us posted as to the financial and mechanical results.

Jim F