Rudder

[Stella Karuna]

Hello Folks:

I am wondering how folks find the rudder on the Ranger 25?

I have found it leaves something to be desired in rougher seas? Someone has suggested an articulated rudder and perhaps something a little bigger would have more authority.

I am also looking at an rudder indicator which tell me when it is in neutral. I do have a little trouble keeping track of its position as it is two full turns from hard- over to neutral.

Your comments are appreciated.

cheers Bill

 

[ngleadow]

Hi Bill
We have had our R25 "Blue Socks" for just a few months now after decades of owning sailboats. Getting use to the rudder was one of the first things we had to do. The larger prop (compared to the sailboats) on the R25 tends to kick the stern to starboard (bow to port)when in forward gear which means I was turning the rudder slightly to starboard to compensate. This becomes more pronounced in rough seas. The result was lots of wheel action. To determine midships, I tied a turks head around the upper spoke of the wheel when it was midships. That helps, but you still have to count how many turns you are from hard over to be sure.

Initially I was wondering if a larger rudder would make things easier, but now I believe a wheel with fewer turns from stop to stop would be better.

We love the boat and are glad to have made the switch from sail to power.

Cheers

Norm

 

[SlackwaterJack]

From my experience, basically the faster the boat can go - the smaller the rudder.
Sailboats also need to compensate for wind pressure (prevent rounding to windward) and to steer with almost 0 forward motion and therefore need really big rudders. The big keel tends to smooth out the "twitchiness" that a very big rudder can produce.
Low speed power boats (R-21) can have relatively large rudders, with a fairly large rudder area ahead of the axis to give a "power assist" when approaching top speeds of under 9 knots.
Boats that can exceed 10 knots will see the rudder area shrink as the max speed increases. , eg: at 18 knots or more a bigger rudder may require power stearing to keep the driver from quickly tiring. The area ahead of the rudder's axis will become very small to keep the rudder from overpowering the helm.
I suppose if someone were to order an R-25/27 with 40 hp they could use the rudder size of the R-21. My old Albin 25 had a 30hp yanmar and did hull speed with lots of reserve and it had a rudder exactly like my R-21.

I haven't had a lot of heavy weather experience with single engine boats like the faster Rangers but, perhaps there is a "technique" others could share for stearing control in large head seas and following waves. I would think that having to constantly go "lock to lock" would indicate that boat's speed and wave speed may be out of sync.

 

[doke01]

The only time I have had problems with the rudder is going downwind in rough seas. A couple of time I wasn't sure I would come back quick enough when the seas pushed the stern over. I think a larger rudder would have helped there. The only other times is at slow speed due to the prop walk. The rudder is pretty ineffective in one direction (if I remember right it was when I back down to port, winter memory loss you know, it just won't turn to port) but that is where the thrusters come in. The R25 definitely needs thrusters for low speed maneuvering.

 

[commander bill]

I have found the rudder outstanding when cruising but also lacking in rough seas. Coming from driving large ships (this is first small boat I have ever actually handled) I always relied on a rudder angle indication & feel somewhat naked handling the boat without one. After many years of using a rudder indication my mind just can not seem to remember where the rudder was a minute ago. Those that were more used to small boats do not seem to be bothered by it.

Since I chose the RM S1000 AP (no separate rudder indication) I added a rudder sensor & indicator.

 

[Stella Karuna]

Hello Commander Bill;

Could you elaborate a bit more on what a RM S1000 AP is and the type of rudder sensor and indicator you use. I am also used to a rudder angle indicator and can't seem to keep track of the darn thing. With 4 full turns from hard port to hard starbooard I seem to lose my place.

cheers Bill

 

[PhilR]

I too am used to a rudder position indicator from my sailboat days and would like to hear some suggestions for available indicators that can be added to the Ranger tugs.

 

[Lobo]

Here is my two-bits on the R-27 rudder -- which is what I have. Yes, rudder is small and when you are in harbor and in neutral it is totally useless. Bless the thrusters then. I have a Simrad Autohelm, installed by the dealer when I bought the boat 3 years ago, and it shows the rudder position. When I get into the marina I centre the rudder and steer with thrusters. I also practice turning without using thrusters but I have a long way to go.

Today down at our club a friend with a 40' trawler (photo on page 42 of March 2011 Pacific Yachting and author of "Single Handing A Trawler") was up on the cradle and he showed me an extension to his rudder that he has just put on. He added about 20% surface. He has a bow thruster but no stern thruster. As the boat doesn't get splashed until tomorrow morning, no report on improvement. He's hoping for good improvement in reverse.

Most of my cruising is with the auto helm on -- only friends that don't boat much actually hand steer when underway on mine. If you add an autohelm make sure it has a rudder indicator.

One other hint (I learned this the hard way!) is when manouvering in harbor don't try and steer with the thrusters if you are in gear.

Dave

"Lobo"

 

[thataway]

When there is a hyraulic steering system, there is almost always "helm creep"--that is the centerpoint of steering never remains the same, since there is always some pressure on one side more than on the other, because of torque and prop walk (even in forward) of the prop. This pressure on one side can be compensated for by a trim tab, asymetrical rudder or a wedge on the trailing edge of the rudder. Often this is not that noticable with hydraulic steering. (vs cable). The faster the boat the smaller the rudder. The low speed handling is not as critical because of the thrusters. A bigger rudder adds more drag at higher speeds.

 

[Levitation]

My autopilot has a rudder position indicator that shows at all times... I glance at it to verify that the rudder is roughly centered before dropping the dock lines, or going into forward gear in the turning basin, etc... (going into reverse it does not matter because the rudder has no effect) Beyond that, it is a rough indicator of how much side slip you are countering... Handy, but not crucial...

 

[j&lgray]

We use the Laurie Ann often to go to a small island where the marina is very tight and where the wind and currents can be very strong and in opposing directions. I often say, "If you can dock at Hat Island, you can dock anywhere." We use the rudder 90% of the time. Though it is small and can take time and practice to master, it can be effective. Captain Mac says it best, it will be very effective when the prop is active; not like a sailboat where it will steer when coasting.

So, give the boat blasts of forward thrusts after you have turned the wheel and it will respond. Driving a boat is NOT like driving a car, turns have to be planned for, set up for and started much, much earlier. We use the thrusters to fine tune our turns, or to spin around within the length of the boat, to fight wind or current, or just to show off.

We do not have a rudder indicator and never felt the urge to need one. We pilot the boat by watching for change of direction and simply feeling it.

 

[commander bill]

RM (Raymarine) S1000 is a low cost AP (autopilot) which many on this website use. It makes use of software with no compass input or rudder reference. Other more expensive APs often provide a rudder reference. So if you want a rudder indicator I would advise you look ahead toward what if any AP you would install the AP may provide the indication. My rudder indication cost around $200 for the sensor & indicator. The indicator is a VDO gauge and I obtained the sensor from Jim at BOE Marine which is a very good online source for marine elecronic stuff. I can not recall the part numbers