Thermal Imaging

glthomas

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
49
Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C SE
Hull Identification Number
FMLT2112H213
Vessel Name
Gus
I want to cruise at night. With winter coming and long nights ahead I am very interested in the ability to see at night.
Active Captain newsletter product of the month has a handheld model. Looking around on their site I think a permanent mount on the mast would be the way to go. I was about to " add to cart", then decided to see if anyone here has this installed or use a handheld model.
Any info, tips on installation and radar comparison will be helpful and appreciated.
 
This is a good question for Captain Mac as he is running the Raymarine with FLIR setup on his new 27, perhaps he will chim in.
 
Are you looking for a light intensifier (Night Vision) or a Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) device. One amplifies existing light (or uses an infrared illuminator to create light) and the other uses contrasts in temperature to create a visual reference. The issue with night vision is that it has a limited field of vision (FOV) and is effected by blooming (external lights blurring out the view). The issue with a FLIR system is that, despite what they show on TV, does NOT have the ability to look through windows such as in the pilot house of a Ranger Tug...which pretty much rules out the use of a handheld in winter months. You can get blooming in FLIR systems from large extreme heat sources, but it is significantly less likely to happen as opposed to Night Vision. FLIR purchased Raymarine in 2010 which has allowed for relatively low-cost ($3K to $18K http://www.defender.com/raymarine-therm ... ameras.jsp mounted marine systems.) marine grade FLIR systems.

Both technologies are useful for night boating operations and it really matters as to what your requirements are for any of the given systems. Some of the Raymarine systems incorporate a FLIR and a low-light video system which, while not as good as Gen III/IV Night Vision, offers additional clarity as to, "What is that heat source in the water?".

Good luck and let us know what you get!

Mike
 
http://www.flir.com/US/
Website is announcing new thermal imaging products for 2013 on October 1 at 8am.
I'll wait to see what they have coming.
I originally wanted Garmin to stay compatible with our plotters but I don't think Garmin sells them anymore. I can't find one online anywhere. It may take time for me to decide on a model and mode of monitor. I would like to keep the cost well below 10k if possible.
Thanks for the post and keep them coming with any tips and info.
 
My two cents ,
As a commercial pilot , I have used both FLIR and radar . The FLIR was best at spotting critters on the runway at night .
It was not that good in fog . The aircraft systems were between 25k and 50k and were really cool but somewhat limited in real world use .
The hand held units are cool , but ...... Expensive , limited field of view , and are a bit shaky on the water .
Why not get a couple more , really powerful lights ?? It's a lot cheaper and if your in fog at night only the radar will do you any good anyway .
 
My experience with a powerful spot light is that it is not useful in illuminating the water ahead, or at least not from the location currently used on ranger tugs. The light is very bright, but it is either illuminating the core deck or the air.

The light might be useful when approaching a marina after dark, and definitely is useful for making one's boat visible from a great distance, but it doesn't help with see objects in the water ahead.

Sue P
Spinner
 
Spinner":fysn2sj9 said:
My experience with a powerful spot light is that it is not useful in illuminating the water ahead, or at least not from the location currently used on ranger tugs. The light is very bright, but it is either illuminating the core deck or the air.

The light might be useful when approaching a marina after dark, and definitely is useful for making one's boat visible from a great distance, but it doesn't help with see objects in the water ahead.

Sue P
Spinner

Sue P,

I agree that the built-in Ranger Tugs spotlight is not very useful due to glare. However, I've found a powerful, handheld spotlight used out a window or by a mate from the cockpit can be extremely useful.
 
I’ve been evaluating one of the new T200 series of FLIR camera systems from Raymarine for the past couple of months on Passage Weaver – our new 2013 R27. I have the T253 - a fixed mount, 640 x 480 resolution with digital zoom integrated with my MFD (a Raymarine E-127 chartplotter). I see that Defender has the camera listed at just under $4k.

I’d say the unit is quite amazing. It is just like having a video camera showing exactly what is in front of you – day or night. It has a couple of viewing options – day running mode, MOB mode, night running, and docking. You can also change the color scheme from gray (white is hot, black is cold) to a variety of different colors. For normal navigation, I’ve found the gray is just fine – or at night the red palette is pretty good.

It can even detect logs & debris in the water – day or night, but you really have to be going slow to catch & react to them in time. It doesn’t catch them all….. ;-). It does not work in fog, or heavy rain – I just get a gray screen since everything is a uniform temperature.

The pictures shown in the advertising brochures are pretty much what you get to see. I’d be glad to do a couple of screen captures next time I head down to the boat if you’d like to see “real” images. I don’t head out at night very often here (boating at night here in the Pacific Northwest can be hazardous to your health due to debris in the water), so more likely they will be daytime shots.

It is fixed mount – so you can only see things that are straight ahead. There have been times when I wished I could have turned it to see what was to the side – but without a reference, it would be impossible to determine where I was looking anyway…

From my perspective, I’d first rely on Radar – and think color HD radar is the must have item for safe navigation. The different colors represent different densities, so you can easily tell the difference between a real thing (like a ship – it will be red) and an echo ( it will be yellow). When running at night, I split the screen on the MFD – one panel for color radar, one for the thermal imaging camera and one screen for the chart (with radar overlay). It’s worked pretty well for me.

Mac
 
Thanks for all replies;

Working dog, I should find useful lighting at the site below. As Spinner added mounting them low enough could be a challenge.
http://www.superbrightleds.com/

CaptMac, I basically was thinking of a fixed mount camera like the one you have connected to a 12 TV on a hinge above the center windshield that I could lift out of the way during daylight hours. I had not initially wanted to add the expense of another plotter or joystick controller.
I will see what they come out with tomorrow. Hopefully, something compatible with Garmin Plotters and NMEA 2000.
I have a Garmin 700 series but I would like to have Thermal Imaging on a separate monitor. Since my plotter is has Radar capabilities I will think about adding Radar as you suggested.
Although I have no plans to travel in fog or heavy rain at night, I know that it will happen at times when Murphy shows up.
 
What is it you want to see at night that isn't visible to you now? Are your conditions especially hazardous? I guess I don't see the problem (no pun intended).

To me, workingdogs is on the right path. If you add the KISS principle to that, you get pretty close to a practical solution. It would take awfully special conditions to make IR, and etc. useful, and: (1) how often would it be used (or be necessary?); (2) how often would it fail (always at the most critical times! remember Kelly's Law); (3) what will it really buy you (and at what price?).

The more I read about the "high tech" stuff we keep adding to our boats, the more I realize we are losing perspective. Thousands of years of boating experience are set aside to have the "latest and greatest" toy. When the toy breaks, and it always will, what then? Will we have the basic skills to get home alive? Just looking at the complaints about failures of the new "high-tech" diesel engine controls and monitors on this board indicates we have lost something somewhere along the line, whether it is through legislation or just wanting to look "cool".

Troglodyte here, I guess. But keep in mind the old saying "4WD lets one get stuck in more inaccessible places!" I have used RADAR to good effect in the fog and at night. I have also passed within inches of a piling with a huge RADAR reflector on it in the dark. And the proximity alarm was set! Sometimes things just don't work as advertized. I slowed and posted my wife on the foredeck shortly thereafter. I regularly used GPS, even when selective availability was turned on. Being "dithered" 500' or more was a real lot of fun, especially near coral reefs. I have had both my GPS and my autopilot fail in The Bahamas. We lived through it because we knew basic piloting and navigation, and knew how to steer with the wheel instead of letting "Gus" do it.

A question about the spotlights on the newer tugs. Are they not controllable? If so, the problem is not with the light, but with the boat. I discovered many years ago that even the standing rigging on a sailboat would give so much glare that one had to hold the spotlight beyond them to be useable. On our Ranger, we had the same problem but the fix was easy. When on the water at night where you might need the spotlight, cover the stainless rail with black foam pipe insulation. We cut pieces to the proper length and split them so we could "snap" them over the rail sections quickly. If it is really windy, secure them with a piece of small stuff or tape. Voila! Instant visibility with the spotlight. But the most basic key to success at night is to preserve your "night vision" by not using any lights and keeping the panel lights dim. I know, it isn't always possible, but it does work.
 
abcandjrc,
I am surprised at the visual distance Thermal Imaging provides at night. I will go ahead and admit that I have not cruised at night in my tug. I have tried some night fishing in my bay boat in the past. Some nights I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. Using a handheld spot light requires the light beams' ability to reflect off objects in the water. If there is nothing then you see nothing at all. I practically blinded myself when I turned mine around to see if it was even on.
When you leave the ICW and enter the Houston Ship Channel the horizon is lit up like Christmas lighting and of course scenery you can only get to see at night. Crossing the Channel I had problems with depth perception and orientation. My bay boat has a plotter and that's it for electronics. I am familiar with the area and don't remember even looking at it, I was so preoccupied. I decided to follow the Galveston Ferry across the channel to reach Seawolf Park where I wanted to fish under their lights.
Radar will definitely help or solve the perception issue and I should add that first according to everyone.
Have a look on YouTube at thermal imagining demonstrations for examples of how it can improve on night vision. Cruising in unfamiliar areas I think I could use it. I especially like the video approaching a bridge.
I have worked shift work all my life. Although I am now retired I still love the night and a good nap during the day. I can easily see myself on the schedule of six on and six hrs off.

Thanks for your reply and input and I am giving your post a lot of thought. Do you or others think a 7" screen is large enough for radar? Would an IPad work better for me than a 12v TV?

I was really scared that night crossing the Channel. Something I never want to experience again. If the technology is out there I want to make use of it without redundancy.
 
Yeah, I have found the "background" lighting in populated areas to be the biggest night problem. Brake lights, flashing stop lights, etc. can be hard to separate from navigation aids. We also had an impending collision course with Mars and Jupiter, as I recall, on two consecutive night watches, 100 miles off shore in the Atlantic, but that is an entirely different story. But those are not problems with my vision, only a problem with discernment.

As for on the water, unless in debris-laden water (logs in the PNW?) I find that just using low pilot house lighting levels, red (?I know?) interior lights, and an occasional use of the spot (rarely the flood) on our boats has worked fine. Again, keeping in mind the glare from bright objects on my boat. Covering the rails on the Ranger we had worked fine. It is too bad we don't opt for black rails, but tradition gets in the way.

Admittedly, none of the boats we used at night had speeds higher than 15 knots. The Ranger could do 8 but at night we traveled much slower. We always kept a hand-held spotlight on board "just in case". (And the bulb in the spot on the Ranger, like my GPS and autopilot on previous boats, did fail when leaving the skippers' party after a Christmas lighted boat parade. Under a new moon of course! Fortunately, the stored track in the GPS and good night vision got us the 7 miles down the river to our launch site.)
 
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