Water in engine after tow

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dclagett

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Aug 9, 2016
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Fluid Motion Model
C-26
A number of boats on this site have had problems with water in the engine cylinders after being towed, even though the engine raw water seacock was closed. Does the factory know how the water got in the engine and steps the owner can take to eliminate this problem? This happened to my RT25SC after a10 mile tow and now I need an engine rebuild or replacement.
 
Sometimes the added agitation of towing mixes up your fuel and causes this reading.
 
I followed this story and today checked out our RT25SC. One suggestion was that the water feed to the stuffing box could be the source of water being ingested under tow. The idea of clamping this off before towing was mentioned. I looked at our tube and it is understandably pretty thick walled. I don’t know how easy it would be to clamp.
 
Chimo,

I understand that the shaft tunnel cooling could possibly be one of the problems from what I have read on this site. However, I would like to get the boat designer/manufactures understanding on this problem. We as owners need a concise solution so in the event our boat needs to be towed, it can be done without significant damage to the engine. In addition, there are probably many owners that don’t know this problem exists, I didn’t and I am now looking at a significant financial impact. Owners need to understand that there may be an issue with their boat and the solution for a fix. Not every RT or Cut owner reads this site on digs into its depths. Owners need to be notified.
 
https://www.passagemaker.com/.image/c_l ... 222655.png

Just guessing as I'm not aware of the exact setup on these feed lines but could you not just install a small isolation valve on the line if this is a known issue? Close the seacock, close the feed line valve prior to tow.

I've also read where guys tie off the shaft coupling to prevent it from spinning prior to towing.

Can water back up through the exhaust route in certain sea conditions ???

I agree dclagett,, if this is a known issue and there is a solution then owners should be made aware that in case of a need to tow then you need to do A, B, C and D.
 
I can't help with the water getting into the engine, but I have a comment on the cost of a engine rebuild. I refueled my F-250 diesel this winter and got more water in the fuel/water separator than it could handle. That water entered the fuel system and the whole thing had to be replaced. At the COST of $11,000! My cost $100. It fell under the comprehensive part as water damage on my insurance policy. My deductible is $100. My good Ford dealer told me that most insurance companies pay, and they did. We might want to check our insurance policies.
 
My 2014 RT 25SC had this issue last year after being towed 9 hours at about 5 knots to a port on the Great Lakes to get the reverse gear box replaced. It was flat calm for almost the entire trip with only 1 ft waves at the roughest. Luckily I only had the exhaust system and one cylinder filled with water. It took a few hours of labor to get everything cleaned out, injectors cleaned, and oil changed. It started right up afterwards with no issues.

I had the thru hull closed, but the prop was slowing turning during most of trip. Unless I'm missing something, there are only a couple of ways that water can get into the exhaust with the thru hull closed. One is the exhaust and the other is the water line to the prop packing. I suspect that with as calm as the water was the day of my tow and how slow we were going, that there wasn't a lot of pressure to cause water infiltration in the exhaust. That leaves the packing cooling line as the likely culprit. You could remove the line and plug it or with a pair of vice grips you could be clamp it enough that there would be little water flow. For me that would have been easy to do since I was being towed from one port to another. It would have been a much more of a problem trying to get it done when tossing in 3 ft seas.

But there is another way as well..if your problem is a known gearbox or prop issue then just run the engine while you are being towed. Fuel flow at idle is minimal, you keep your batteries topped up, and there's plenty of power for chartplotters, radios, etc. A few dollars of diesel...even at today's high prices...is still way cheaper than an engine replacement.

One last comment. I had TowBoat US Unlimited Gold towing insurance which paid just a little bit less than $3000 for the tow to a port where I could get repaired. I won't leave home without it now.
 
Oh yes, I am working with insurance. Problem is parts and loss of season while waiting for them. I did find a longblock from VP for my engine, only one in US, at a cost of $31,000 with a $6,000 rebate if they accept my old block. At that cost I am also looking at a repower to get away from the high cost of VP parts & maintenance in the long run. Trying to rebuild my current engine may be cost prohibitive with high cost of VP parts plus the labor to rebuild from scratch. We will see if insurance will help and then which approach they will support. All while the season passes. We the owners need some answers.
 
In my case I could run the engine since the transmission was stuck in reverse, no way to take it out of gear.
 
I don’t know how easy it would be to clamp.
Click to expand...
Vice grips with short pieces of tubing pushed onto both fingers of the toothed gripping part. G
 
There are three ways that sea water can be ingested into the exhaust system while towing a Ranger and Cutwater with the engine not running. The high speed thru hull pick-up, The exhaust outlet, The shaft log coolant hose attached to the packing gland going to the hose that discharges seawater to the exhaust elbow. The question, is this normal for a boat under tow to have water ingestion in the engine while under tow? My opinion is no it is not common. If it was common it would be on every Tow boat captains check sheet to confirm that all seacocks are closed, exhaust outlets plugged, and shaft cooling glands have a devise to restrict water flow while the boat is being towed. The engine manufactures in this case ( Volvo would have a warning sticker stating that if the boat is disabled and being towed the the following measures need to be done to prevent damage to the engine. A sail boat is a perfect example of a boat that has an engine and is being towed by wind all the time. The engines in the sailboats are installed low in the boat and have specific specifications as to water line inlets and outlets elevations to prevent water intrusion. Many have to use vacuum breakers to eliminate the water from backing up into the engine.

This is a quote from Steve D'Antonio Marine surveyor "In simple terms, antisiphon valves allow air to enter while preventing water under pressure from exiting the plumbing run, thereby “breaking” the siphon. Every engine, generator, head, and bilge pump needs a properly installed antisiphon valve (also called a siphon break) if they are ever below the waterline under any vessel attitude."

If an engine is installed lower than the water line or above the water line the engine install must meet or exceed the manufactures installation requirements during a worst case! Generators which do not operate much of the time while the boat is under way are commonly damaged with water ingestion if the properer manufactures installation guild lines are not followed. Main engines are not usually damaged as easily because for the most part they are running when the boat is moving. Engine manufactures still require an installation that will prevent water from ingesting into the engine when the engine is not running. This is not just for disabled towing. It is also when at anchor or at a dock when conditions are present that could cause water to be forced into the exhaust which is an open water channel to the engine.

Rangers and Cutwater hull designs incorporate a lower engine installation. There are positive reasons for this design. Look at the bottom of a Ranger or Cutwater inboard. It has an interesting bottom. When I was sanding the bottom of my Cutwater I have to say I was amazed at the design. I have never sanded a bottom of a boat with " that much going on" It looks like the design of a genius! This design allows for the motor to be placed low in the hull. The engine install needs to be done in a way that will prevent water entering the engine. The Volvo installation manual gives all the specifications that must be met in order to prevent water ingestion. I assume Fluid Motion followed theses requirements. Volvo is supposed to inspect the install.

One unique hull configuration that caught my eye on the Rangers and Cutwaters was the indent in the hull where the exhaust outlet is. There is also a "Hull Flare" in front of the exhaust outlet. My thought to this design, it is a relief at the exhaust outlet to reduce back pressure to the exhaust system while the boat is running. Does this also create a low pressure when the boat is being towed? I don't know . I do know that when I looked at the exhaust hose elevation on my cutwater I found it to be marginal when compared to the Volvo specifications. I already stated this finding in an other post. I did make adjustments to it and followed up with an email to Fluid Motion customer service and was told we have never had any issues with this install before it is fine. I can say I never had any issues with it. I was also never towed.

The water backing up from the packing gland coolant hose to the exhaust is a plausible condition but one that I had never heard of until reading about it from a Tugnut on this site. Normally the exact opposite happens when a vessel is being towed. The gland is damaged because of a lack of water to cool the gland. While the boat is being towed the prop grabs water and starts to turn. There is no cooling water present because the engine is not running and the gland is dry. The shaft turning the causes friction, heat and damages the gland. This is commonly known and it is advised to lock the shaft to prevent it from turning. Another issue while towing is damage to the reverse gear if the shaft is turning. Locking the shaft will help prevent this from happening too. Most Tow captains area where of this problem.

How many Ranger and Cutwater owners are aware of this issue? It seem to happen when ever a Tug or Cut is towed if powered by an inboard engine. I personally know a couple of owners that have had this issue but I have read of several more and there have been some other threads that deal with this issue from Tug owners that have experienced this exact issue in the past. Is this a Fault design in the Volvo Penta ? I know of both D3 and D4 engine that were damaged from this both installed in Rangers.

Here are a couple threads.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18097&start=0&hilit=sea+tow

This is one that the factory representative never gave any advise on restricting flow from the exhaust or packing coolant line just the seacocks.

Also read Bob Allens post to this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7448&start=0&hilit=got+towed

This one Andrew commented on closing the sea cock but did not comment on the original thread that the damage was causued from the packing gland coolant line. This thread was from 2016 and involved a Yanmar engine. The boat owner of the thread stated that the muffler was full of water but stated it did not fill from the exhaust hose. It filled from the coolant line from the packing. My question to that is how does he know that was the only source of water intrusion?

The 29' and 31 Rangers and the C30 are still in production. The rest of the boats that have the potential to have this damage are no longer production boats. There are 100's of these boats out there in use and will be for many more years. It seems the only way a owner is to know of the design issue of theses boats and the potential of water intrusion if towed is through this forum. There are many owners of Rangers and Cutwaters that never follow this forum and if they did they still probably would never know about this as an issue. Boat US has a consumer protection program. Having the boat manufacture or a boat owner contact Boat Us and explain the issue with theses boats and send a service bulletin out to Tow Boat US and Seatow may help save theses boat owners from the possible damage that may occur if towed.

Having to replace an engine because of not knowing the possibility of damaging an engine while being towed should not be the fault of the boat owner. This is not a common issue in the boating industry in my opinion.
 
Thanks Brian, for the excellent summary of the problem. My reason for this thread was to get the factory involved. They may still reply, but I have moved on to fixing my problem. With many aging inboards the chances for tows are increased. Who would have thought that having a tow may ruin your engine? I will submit a report on my problem to Boat US consumer protection program in hopes to get the word out to the RT/Cut community of the problem.

I also want to thank all who responded to this thread and hope it spreads the word.

Dick
 
Just curious as to what folks use to lock the shaft from turning in the event of a tow?
 
We have used a large pipe wrench to lock our shaft when towing. The boat must be absolutely stop, the shaft not turning, to afix the pipe wrench. If you try to jam the wrench on while the shaft is slowly turning, you can't let go of the wrench fast enough to save your fingers. From experience.
 
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