1st Boat purchase in Family since Grandpa died

[navajas]

Hey folks,

Being a backwards sort of fellow, I guess I'll start this thread after I've confused the issue enough in the other.

My household consists of myself, my wife, two teenage sons and my mother who retired from Seattle to live with us in Sequim. My grandfather, my mom's dad, adored his small wooden cabin boat (Maybe a Chris Craft?) that he kept at John Wayne marina. Likewise, my Mom and I have many fond memories on that boat with him. My wife spent time as a young woman in boats on the Columbia near the Tri-Cities, and my sons can't wait to get back to Florida to go fishing again on a small charter we found.

But none of us have ever actually considered owning a boat of our own.

However, over the past couple of years trips through the San Juan / Gulf islands on ferry boats en route to weekend vacation rentals, and recently wandering the marinas on Orcas Island (with an adorable Ranger Tug at Deer Harbor catching all of our attention and admiration), have conspired in us a kind of gestalt spontaneous realization that we think a boat is for us. As touched on in my (confoundingly earlier) thread, we are in the process of narrowing down a selection process for that first boat.

Our intended purpose / use for the vessel:

1) Comfortable family San Juan cruiser. At first for overnights this would likely just be my immediate four, but as my Mom's fitness improves (she's working on an obesity problem, but doing great!), five. Until then we could be dropping her off at a marina to spend the night at land accommodations instead of her sleeping on the boat. (She insists that on a bigger boat that could the sleep the rest of us, she'd be fine on the converted dinette.)

2) Fishing. We want a practical, useable cockpit to which we can attach downriggers, pot pullers, land a salmon, etc...

3) An eye towards conceivable Interior Passage trips, though almost certainly NOT with all five, and not an immeidate priority. Certainly very tertiary to the above two missions.

To that end we are seriously considering (and I know some of these are out of production, used is fine):

Bold are frontrunners at the moment (though all are still in play), and so far we've been aboard '*':

Cutwater 248
Cutwater 28
Cutwater 288
*Cutwater 30
Cutwater 302
Cutwater 32 (and all of the above's CB variants)
Jeanneau 795 Sport
*Jeanneau 895
*Jeanneau 895 Sport
*Jeanneau 1095 (and the Flybridge Variant)
Jeanneau NC 33
Jeanneau NC 37

Less likely considerations:
American 362 (basically just cost for Boat #1, but also speed)
Commander 34 (Please see below)

Why no Ranger Tugs? Not sure what's unmentionable. I hate restrictions on speech and this illustrates a big reason why: The folks here could be instrumental in alleviating my concerns and we could switch right back to considering them as a real option! If I can ask about "the truth" ( :roll: ) and get counter points to some opinions / insight from random dismissive YouTube comments (especially those NOT related to the above mentioned pariah), but more importantly, from my neighbors who are definitely NOT elitist boat snobs, nor keyboard warrior contrarians, and are VERY experienced boaters (who advised me strongly against Ranger, but had nothing but positive comments about Cutwater). Until I can get those questions asked, answered and hopefully those concerns diminished, I guess I can't include Ranger Tugs on my list. Would love to, because all five of us adore the look.

So, first up, and from perusing this forum and talking with salesmen, dealerships and grazing YouTube pastures, I am up against what apparently is the rather ubiquitous, Cutwater vs. Jeanneau dilemma.

My breakdown is thus:

Cutwater - Had the edge in looks, inside (feels like a boat, not a display at Ikea) and out (gorgeous and athletic, not pretentious). Has the edge in performance. Has the edge in standard features, by far. Has a huge edge in cockpit versatility AND practicality at almost no loss in comfort. Steps to the command bridge on the 32 superior to the ladder on the 1095.

Jeanneau - Has an absolutely massive advantage in accommodations. Even the 895s seem to destroy even the biggest Cutwater. The 1095 making the "berths" on even the 32 seem like a really bad joke in comparison. Like the side decks and the door at the helm to access them.

I know this can't be a unique assessment. I'd be amazed if anyone buying any of these boats, at least in the PNW, doesn't weigh these exact same parameters and doesn't find them somewhat confounding.

Why can't Cutwater give us a real second cabin?! (Yes, 10' beam, I know, but the 895 is less than 10' and it can manage...)
Why can't Jeanneau give us a practical, or at least more configurable, cockpit?
The Cutwater 32 has neat bow seating. The Jeanneau doesn't... but the Jeanneau has that helm door and better side decks to actually get there.
Jeanneau's layout is better as a sleepover cruiser... BUT the materials and cabinetry look, feel, operate and SMELL like a cheap Indiana RV.

I think price is just about a wash at any given tier. Am I wrong? Hard to nail down Jeanneau since EVERYTHING on them is an "option".

So, anyone here have any advice / experience about / with the above boats? Are there boats fitting the bill I'm overlooking?

And speaking of that, does anyone know anything about the "Commander 34" for sale just across the border? I can't get a hold of this Morley guy to save my life. If I combine the apparent sale of the company to the Shanghai yacht builder "Bracewell", three different numbers for this Morley character, none of which he'll answer, email contacts that aren't returned, the fact that I can't find any information on this Commander 34 apart from a single 3.5 minute video on YouTube I get a somewhat sketchy "hands off" vibe from the thing. However, the price is very right, it checks just about every box, seems to exist in a happy medium right in between all the gaps in the Jeanneau vs. Cutwater paradigm and comes with a legacy Commander brand name on which I can't find much dirt.

Rambling. I ramble.

Thanks for your time, would love to hear what you think?

 

[The lyons den]

One of the most enjoyable parts of boat ownership is dreaming about it! I dreamt about a Rangertug for almost 15 years, therefore I love my 2021 r23.
It seems like you are doing lots of research and have thought it out thoroughly therefore whatever decision you make will be the right decision for you! Good luck with your search.

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

If you have not heard it before….. buy the biggest boat you can afford within the size range you are considering. Lots of folks buy a xxxx footer and it was not large enough so they sell and buy a larger. This process means, most times, sales tax and a selling commission, which hinders what might be available for purchase number two. If you’re thinking between, let’s say a 27 n a 29 go with the larger one! In addition consider used vs new to get to your price point if it leads to the larger size you desire. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim F

 

[baz]

I'd like to make just one point here.... What ever boat you start off with will most likely not be the only boat you own. You and others beside you will develop different requirements over time, some come up quickly while others slowly creep up on you: health, change in life style, kids leaving the nest, ownership cost, and so on are just some examples.This aspect will likely force and encourage you to change the boat you have. Typically it leads you to wanting a larger boat, but could also lead you to want a smaller boat, and eventually you may just tire of boating all together and sell up.

What ever boat you decide on, don't think it will be the one for the rest of your boating activities: be prepared to alter course, so to speak.

 

[navajas]

What ever boat you start off with will most likely not be the only boat you own.

Agreed! 😉

 

[huruta]

Hi! I'm also a first boat buyer thinking about similar boats. My take on the 'hull truth' is that one person can do a LOT of damage in an online environment and that side comments about RTs having problems is really just someone reading/remembering hull truth and passing along what they remember, amplifying one person's experience.

Tugnuts is a place with a LOT of people and so I think any problems are not necessarily more common with RTs, but that they have a voice. Also, Cutwaters are made by the same folks that make RTs (at least that's my understanding) and so I don't think quality would affect one but not the other.

This is not to defend RTs. I have never owned an RT or any boat for that matter and I'm still in the early stage and not sure what we'll end up with, but I certainly like the RTs and take the one person's experience and random comments of others with a grain of salt. Good luck with your search!

 

[FlyMeAway]

Curious: what are the issues you've heard with RTs? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post here.

 

[Charlesdykman]

Our experience was with a Ranger 25. We did not use the boat as much as we thought we would. We live on a medium sized lake. We thought that we would fish. We didn't. Boats are a lot of work, and upkeep is expensive. It's also necessary, and you will do more than you think you will. We sold the R25, but will probably get an R-23 or maybe a used R-21. We liked everything about the R-25 though access to the Bow was slim and a bit difficult for us. We are retired, and in fairly good shape. A boat is nothing like a car. We have had boats for like 75 years. But there is no substitute for a boat if you enjoy boating. It just feels good to be in a boat. cpd

 

[bob daily]

Mr. Navajas, I can go on line, wether the hull truth or others and find fault with any boat manufactured in the world! It's kinda like looking at reviews it seems people only write them when they have a complaint. I'm not saying some of them are not true and should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you want a good review of a type of boat, grab a six-pack of beer and go share with the owner of a boat down at the pier and get a one on one with the owner, they will share there knowledge and complaints about there boat. Looking at your list for how you intend to use your soon to be boat, it might be wise for you to remember one size doesn't fit all the activities that you listed, you might want to list them in order of priority. Fishing on a boat that consumes a large amount of fuel is not practical and I doubt that your wife and mother are going to want to clean up blood and fish slime on there new boat. Have you thought of getting a smaller boat for fishing and crabbing but big enough for you and the wife can do a weekend getaway? This will allow you to get your sea legs and learn how to handle your boat. You wouldn't let the kids to take mom's new car out with a learners permit, and believe me you are going to put some nice scratches and dings in your boat before you become a pro at docking !
Any way that's just my two cents worth. Bob
By the way NAVAJA is a Spanish knife, so I would assume your a sharp guy!

 

[Kimberly Dawn]

You're getting a lot of good advice... these are exciting times for you! You certainly live in a beautiful boating area once you make your decision.

We have friends out of Vancouver, BC that have a Commander 30. They bought right, did a total refurbish bow-to-stern, and today have an enviable boat! It aint no trawler!

Once again, if you buy used, get a qualified surveyor. I've heard some say even if you buy new, but I can say Ranger Tugs stands behind their new products. Cutwater has a different marketing strategy (same Fluid Motion boat manufacturer) but I would think the same holds true for them.

I will say both Ranger Tugs and Cutwater Boats are quality production boats produced in relative high volume. There is very little deviation from their stock production lineup, BUT, there are some choices. Regardless what choices you make at the time, make them wisely. Once you have a confirmed order form and you're approaching your build start date, your order is firm.

Good luck with your buying adventure!

Bob
Kimberly Dawn

 

[Brian98133]

I can only speak from my own experience, obviously... But I've owned other manufactuer's boats over the years. Many of which were from a certain Knoxville, TN plant :mrgreen: and have the initials "S R", which is generally known to produce higher-end boats - or at least, not on the lower end of the spectrum 😉 and my experience with RT has been exemplary.

In my 2 years of owning this RT, I have run it pretty hard... Been out in situations that I would tell others NEVER to go out in - mostly because I thought (I no longer think this, BTW) I was smarter than a meteorologist :roll: - and SMACKED a deadhead hard enough that I was sure we were taking on water... just to find out that it had just produced a hefty scuff - oddly enough somewhat near to where the other person whose name has been eloquently avoided in this thread had his issue. I have been extremely impressed not only in its handling and seaworthiness, but its fit and finish too.

My 2020 only had (*knocking on wood) one minor warranty issue, which Andrew and Marco promptly fixed, and have had zero other issues. I simply cannot say that about my previous holes-in-the-water. Not only did I have various issues, but the factory response left a bit to be desired. For these reasons, I am a HUGE proponent of anything FM... RT in particular.

Not sure if this helps... but just my two cents 😀

 

[navajas]

I can go on line, wether the hull truth or others and find fault with any boat manufactured in the world! It's kinda like looking at reviews it seems people only write them when they have a complaint.

I said something very similar to FlyMeAway in the PM he requested.

In my 2 years of owning this RT, I have run it pretty hard... Been out in situations that I would tell others NEVER to go out in - mostly because I thought (I no longer think this, BTW) I was smarter than a meteorologist :roll: - and SMACKED a deadhead hard enough that I was sure we were taking on water... just to find out that it had just produced a hefty scuff - oddly enough somewhat near to where the other person whose name has been eloquently avoided in this thread had his issue. I have been extremely impressed not only in its handling and seaworthiness, but its fit and finish too.

And I've heard, read and watched many such positive anecdotes. I also spoke with a man tying up his Cutwater 28, which he adores, in Port Townsend Sunday morning as well. I think our concerns about Ranger or Fluid Motion boats have been largely, if not entirely, alleviated.

Unfortunately, we are no closer to a decision or purchase. Jeanneau's cousin, twin, clone, sister? Beneteau has entered the equation with their Antares 9/11 and Swift Trawler 35, and even skipping the "first" boat process entirely and going directly to Dreamboat is becoming an option. That would mean Helmsman, American, Nordic, etc... are in the mix.

Honestly, if anyone at Fluid happens by, if you made a Cutwater with a legitimate second stateroom like most Jeanneau and Beneteau manage to do (some with 10' or smaller beams), we'd have already made the call and moved on to funding decisions for a Cutwater. The fact that on a similarly sized and priced boat a Jeanneau 1095 can fit three private, walk-in, staterooms (and legit sleep six in real berths, eight with the dinette), while Fluid Motion can't fit two (sleeping five max, and that only if two of them can crawl in and out of a small hole while a third is pinning their hatch shut above them), is endlessly frustrating and could very well end up costing a sale once my Mom realizes the practicality of making that dinette hop three times a night.

Or I guess, maybe my wife and I might fit up there?

Grr. I know, compromises.

Grumble grumble grumble. 🙁

 

[Ernie]

So much going on here.
Ranger Tugs are my own favorite in class, mostly because there’s nothing else in the class. Tinker as you will, there’s no other boat 23’ to 31’ that does what these boats do best… everything. An RT is a great fishing boat that’s also a great family cruising boat. The OB models have the added feature of top end speed on a fishing/ family cruising boat.
I drove an r23 4 flawless seasons, not a single hiccup, so quality was proven. My new 31’ is off to very promising start as well, no issues of workmanship or functionality so far.
I pitch RT over CW mostly for NW boaters because when you run on an RT you have the entire RT factory crew in your corner more or less 24/7. CW seems to leave you with the dealer you buy from.
Only advice I follow when choosing a good boat for me..,
When you tie your boat to the dock and head home, if you don’t have to turn around after a few yards, and stare at it one last time, and then usually once again before you get to your truck, it’s probably not the boat for you.

 

[navajas]

Thanks, Ernie.

You'd be a good person to ask. Am I wrong or are Rangers at every size/feature tier a little more expensive than their Cutwater sisters? If I'm not seeing things incorrectly, and as a boating neophyte, why is this the case? Is there something more difficult to manufacture not immediately apparent to someone with my lack of experience?

For what it's worth, I have not forgotten that it was specifically a Ranger Tug that got us all thinking "boat" originally.

And yes, for me, both Rangers and Cutwaters are chronic head turners.

 

[FlyMeAway]

The fact that on a similarly sized and priced boat a Jeanneau 1095 can fit three private, walk-in, staterooms (and legit sleep six in real berths, eight with the dinette), while Fluid Motion can't fit two (sleeping five max, and that only if two of them can crawl in and out of a small hole while a third is pinning their hatch shut above them), is endlessly frustrating and could very well end up costing a sale once my Mom realizes the practicality of making that dinette hop three times a night.

All boats are designed with trade-offs (even two 150' megayachts will have trade-offs one compared to the other!), so it's important to know the trade-offs that matter to you. The Cutwater gets 25-30%+ better fuel economy than the Jeanneau (at similar speeds), and has a faster top speed overall (this matters more for some than others). The Cutwater is trailerable (no difference to me; big difference to others). The Cutwater has larger fuel capacity and so longer range.

And then there are other little things: the Cutwater has 2X the holding tank capacity and 1.5X the water tank capacity (in the base model); the holding tank on the Jeanneau cannot be upgraded (though water can, for more $$$ you can get the same size water tank that the Cutwater has standard). That double-size holding tank is going to make a huge difference if you like to anchor, but probably not as much of a difference if you just like to stay in marinas. Again, trade-offs.

The biggest difference, though, is one which I think you've overlooked: they are not similarly priced boats. The Jeanneau and the Cutwater have similar starting prices, but Cutwater includes as Standard $50-90k of what is "optional" on the Jeanneau (things like an electric windlass; usable nav system + radar; heating or AC/generator). I mean, heck, shore power is a $$$ option on the Jeanneau.

I've seen these boats at boat shows. Once you apply all the boat show incentives, you're looking at a 15-30%+ pricing gap between similarly equipped boats. Now, again, boating is about trade-offs. If you really want that full second/third cabin (and the third cabin costs even more money), but are willing to do without an electric windlass (and a lot of other conveniences), then you have a comparably priced boat. But that's a lot of hauling a 34lb anchor up and down by hand...

This is one of the reasons Fluid Motion boats are so popular, especially in the NW: (nearly) everything comes standard, and overall they are perceived as a screaming deal for what you pay. This is one of the reasons that they are so popular among ex-sailors, who are used to getting a lot more standard and for a lot less money (a 40' sailboat has more room than even the NC1095, can cost $100k less, is a much more viable option used (sailboats tend to wear less), and still cruises at 7 knots under power while burning around 1gph).

I also owe you a response to your PM, but there's a lot to unpack there, so give me some time ;-)

 

[Ernie]

Navajas,
The price difference between RT and CW doesn’t favor CW exactly. There’s not an exact size version of each to compare exactly ie 23 vs 24 or 30 vs 31. Mostly CW seems to come in a little less on the base price. The r31 being an exception. I started boating on an old Kent Ranger 26 sailboat ( the distant grand parent of the RTs from the factory in Kent) and the RT still has a similar boaty look and feel from that era. Subjectivity, I just think the RTs are a little boatier looking and classic, even in the interiors there are touches including more wood that may reflect in price.
With price, one thing to keep in mind,; the price is just the price of admission. The real costs of boat ownership are the monthly moorage, fuel, fuel insurance, maintenance, upgrades, cruising expenses., tow vehicle sometimes)
Get the one you love and the one that you’ll be able to afford to get out on a lot
Mostly have fun, and remember, there’s always… the next boat.

 

[navajas]

The biggest difference, though, is one which I think you've overlooked: they are not similarly priced boats. The Jeanneau and the Cutwater have similar starting prices, but Cutwater includes as Standard $50-90k of what is "optional" on the Jeanneau (things like an electric windlass; usable nav system + radar; heating or AC/generator). I mean, heck, shore power is a $$$ option on the Jeanneau.

The everything's an option on a JeannBeneteau ptoducts is indeed exceedingly obnoxious. It's one of the reason I phrased it "similarly priced" because it's damned hard, clearly by design, to even GET a price on one of them. You're basically captive to however the dealer specced the boat. "Similar" I guess to me meant, "ball park". It's not the difference between Cutwater and American or Aspen for instance.

But really, if the larger 'eau boats had a functioning, practical cockpit and, (and this is a BIG deal to us), the interiors did not feel, look and smell like an Indiana RV, any moderate extra cost they might demand over Fluid Motion would be more than worth it for those staterooms. But, they're not. Haven't been on a Beneteau, but Jeanneau's for all their layout benefits, smell like a Jayco, and their cabinets look the part.

So I'm left with Fluid Motion not having realistic accommodations, and Jeanneau not having quality materials or a practical cockpit.

Ha, yeah, and I saw that the anchor windlass was an option on the Jeanneau and laughed. In any case, I'm betting no JeannBeneteau ever actually leaves the factory without all of the "options" that Fluid Motion makes standard, but it is certainly damned aggravating.

 

[FlyMeAway]

So I'm left with Fluid Motion not having realistic accommodations, and Jeanneau not having quality materials or a practical cockpit.

Ha, yeah, and I saw that the anchor windlass was an option on the Jeanneau and laughed. In any case, I'm betting no JeannBeneteau ever actually leaves the factory without all of the "options" that Fluid Motion makes standard, but it is certainly damned aggravating.

^ Emphasis added above -- like I said, everything in boating involves trade-offs. To get a boat with the fit-and-finish of FM but the features/size of the Jeanneau, you spend 60%+ more (not the ~25% more that the Jeanneau costs). But I'm glad you got on a Jeanneau and discovered that they are built real cheap, as they say. FWIW, the Beneteau historically is the "value/Chevy" brand, and Jeanneau is the "upscale/Buick" brand, btw, though recently that's become more about aesthetics (classic vs. modern) than quality.

As for the second point, in slower times (read: everything pre-pandemic) you used to be able to just pretty much order what you wanted: if you were buying a new boat, you got the production slot and configured it with the options you wanted (dealer orders be damned). That's getting harder and harder with boats (just like with cars).

I think the bigger problem is: if you want a bigger boat, you need more money. OR (and this is my recommendation), you have to buy used, not new. I've never (and basically never would) purchase a new boat. But I don't like buying new cars, either. Both strike me as a tremendous waste of money (even more so for boats).

 

[S. Todd]

The boat we own now, a Ranger Tug R29S, and the two before that, a Ranger Tug R25SC and a Sea Ray 240 Sundancer (our fifth from that manufacturer), were each purchased with the idea that they were the last boats we would purchase. Priorities, life experiences, family schedules and finances can change the way one thinks and feels. I was happy with each of these boats and unlike the saying that the happiest days of your lives is when you buy a boat and when you sell a boat, it was always a sad day to sell what we carefully purchased and enjoyed before moving to something different. We considered a Nordic Tug but the up and down floor plan did not even start to fit our lifestyle and "dogs on the boat" way we cruise. Good luck with evaluating your choices. For me the most important decision was, "Is this boat seaworthy enough that when whichever of the Great Lakes I am on, 30 miles from shore, and things get unexpectedly ugly, am I going to say I made the right decision and I feel confident that I have a hull and deck structure that will not let me down?" Answer that question first. So far I have never had anything break on any of my watercraft under conditions that were such that I could see no other boats in sight and in some cases I left the marina when most everyone else stayed tied safely in a slip (for decades of boat ownership I was not retired and had a schedule to keep). The hull on all seven of our boats was solid and the weight was distributed low in the hull giving them each a good sense of balance.

 

[navajas]

I think the bigger problem is: if you want a bigger boat, you need more money. OR (and this is my recommendation), you have to buy used, not new. I've never (and basically never would) purchase a new boat. But I don't like buying new cars, either. Both strike me as a tremendous waste of money (even more so for boats).

Buying lightly used is definitely the goal. I do not want to go too old however. Broken in is great, broken down is not a good place to start. That said, my Mom really appreciates the "this is only ever mine / peel the stickers off", factor of new ownership. Unfortunately it seems that, by far, there are way more smaller boats in our interest group than larger. I'm sure this is a side effect of this exact process: Buy a cheaper smaller boat, oops, too small, get one two feet bigger, repeat.

If a 2018 CW302 or something hit the market at a good price then the shine on those Jeanneau staterooms could fade pretty quickly.

Oh, and speaking of Jeanneau quality, the handle on the door to the head came off in my hand as we toured a lightly used 1095 Fly. Yeah, it was just an easily tightened loose set screw, but, then again, the thing was only held on by a set screw. Not the best first impression.

And thanks for the JeannBeneteau analogy. Was wondering that myself, but had it backward. Figured Jeanneau was Toyota, Beneteau was Lexus. Or maybe Scion and Toyota. shrug