25, 25SC, 27, 29, 31?

[Hydraulicjump]

Hello Tugnuts,

Jeff's earlier post inspired me to send this one.

I am one of your lurkers: a regular visitor to the website, enjoying the interaction of the members and longing for a Ranger Tug (although I do have the hat and I charter a R-29 regularly). I am planning on becoming a member of, as one of you calls it, your “cult” within the next few years. I thought I would consult the aggregate wisdom of the Tugnuts.

I have an optimization problem I would appreciate your comments on. Many of you are engineers and know how to set these problems up. The objective function is to maximize return on the investment: most fun and utility versus least cost. Defining the optimal solution inevitably involves trade-offs.

Here are my constraints and desires:
1) I live and work in the San Francisco Bay-Delta region and will be retiring soon
2) I work on rivers and estuaries professionally and want a boat that can cruise the same, as well as coastal waters on both coasts where I have family (which means moving it a lot)
3) Cruising would involve about 1/3 on the hook and 2/3 in a marina, 100-150 hours/year. See next.
4) My spouse’s favorite motto is “nothing in life is worth being cold for, and that includes you dear.” For this reason it has to be comfortable and I can single-hand it, when necessary.
5) The less money spent, the sooner I can get the boat and the more time to enjoy it.
6) I will need a new truck, no matter what if I am going to tow it instead of shipping to each destination.

I am soliciting your opinions on this. I can go with an older, depreciated R-25 with its tiny cockpit and easy towing, wait a bit and pick up a used R-25SC, R-27 or R-29, wait longer and get a new R-27 or R-29, or park on the sidelines for a few more years and go for the R-31.

And here is your Tugnut challenge: choose one. I work with ecologists and economists, each with two hands for a reason: they can never decide (on the one hand it could be this; on the other hand it could be that….). Knowing what you know now, and starting from scratch with these constraints, what would you do?

And by the way, I appreciate the gentle banter and civil tone of your site. You all are a breath of fresh air.

Yet another Jeff

 

[Stella Maris]

Maureen and I have owned both a "Classic R-25" and our current R-29. We have enjoyed both vessels. We chose to move to the R-29 mainly due to comfort. Prior to owning our R-25, Solitude, we had a Catalina 25 Sailboat. Both of these vessels had a berth you had to crawl into. As we have gotten older, we found we wanted a bed we could get into just as we do at home (when we go there).

We also wanted the additional space and amenities that you get with the R-29.

Single handing a R-25 or R-29 is not difficult at all. You just plan ahead. Dock lines and fenders in place prior to entering marina etc.

I am currently sitting on Karma in Seattle. The outside temp is 45 degrees. The inside temp on Karma is a comfortable 72 degrees. At the dock we use an oil filled radiator type heater that I bought at Wal Mart along with two West Marine Heaters. On the hook we can use the reverse cycle air or the same heaters.

My suggestion, buy a used R-29 today. Start enjoying life aboard ASAP.

As of last night, I have spent 373 nights aboard Karma in the 26 months that we have owned her. I guess you could say I live aboard since the majority of nights not spent on Karma have been in hotels while traveling for work.

Good luck!

David and Maureen

 

[sleepyboat]

Jeff,
This is going to be your boat. You won't find "friends" around when it's painting or cleaning time, so decide what works for you.

I went from a 21' cc to an R27. It's only six feet but there was a big learning curve for me. The biggest being gas vs. diesel at low speed. You can not creep up on a dock with a diesel in gear and be gentle on the hull.

I always listen to the guys with R25's because they are very similar to 27's and they have been the trail blazers for the larger boats to follow. If you can find a Ranger that you can afford and a mooring or slip that works with your budget and set aside savings for the truck, pull the triger and get in the game.

When you do start to tow remember that the 25/27 are 8'6" and a 29 "may" require road permits to travel in some states.

You will have a longer season than I do in the north east being on the left coast, enjoy where you are.

My wonderful wife will not walk the side to go to the bow so I have learned to single-hand it. You come up with a plan for the conditions and then a plan B when the first one goes belly up.

There are many very bright people on this blog and they enjoy sharing information.

Best wishes on your quest.

John

 

[JamesTXSD]

Using your 6 qualifiers, I think the answer is a definite: it depends. If cost is the determining factor, a used 25 is going to fit the bill. If space is your qualifier... well, bigger is better (for that circumstance). Easier to tow - either of the 25s. The best compromise of all those: the 27.

No one here can tell you if you and your Mrs. will be happy in any given boat. We have a 25 (not a Ranger, but a C-Dory), and that was my wife's choice. Contrary to what many believe, bigger does not always equate to happier... the best solution is finding the boat that is comfortable for you and your use. Every boat you are considering has: a dinette, an enclosed head, a berth, an enclosed helm, and some cockpit space. How much you need, or how little you can be happy with, is a pretty personal choice.

We have had friends and family look at our boat and say, "You go out for HOW LONG in that little boat??" And others who can imagine the adventures and say, "You are so fortunate."

Make your own fortune and pick a boat. Since you've already chartered a 29, is it "more than enough" or "just enough"? Seems that a lot of boat buyers don't get the opportunity to overnight on the boat they are considering, and have to make that leap of faith. My personal take on it would be leaning towards the 25 or 27, just for the ease of towing... more displacement means more work... on the trailer, around the dock, and maintenance. But, if you "need" the room, beam is where it's at. A foot or two of length doesn't change things near as much as a foot or two of beam.

The really great thing about these decisions: you can always make a change and step up or down in boat size... plenty of folks going both directions. You can't go wrong! 😀 Many sailors know the words of Lin and Larry Pardey: "Go small, go simple, go now."

Best wishes,
Jim B.

 

[curt]

I have a 21ec but have had larger. I live in the North End of San Francisco Bay. Only ONE thing from your criteria leaps out, that is "coastal cruising". None of the boats you are considering are suitable for off shore cruising outside the Gate and up the California coast. Maybe in So. Cal and East Coast, but don't even think about No. Cal. or Oregon or Washington off shore. Inland waters are OK. In fact, I have seen SF Bay so wild that they don't even run the commercial ferries.

You being familiar with the Delta and SF Bay, you know about the many estuaries, sloughs, tidal basins, etc. and for real exploring smaller is better. For lengthy live board, bigger is better. I would believe 25 or 27 would work nicely. Remember, nothing is permanent and if it doesn't work, try again.

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Like you we had comparable goals when we decided to buy an Ranger Tug last year. In the end we decided on the R27 for the reason JimB stated, it was the (for us) the best compromise. If we were more liveaboards like David and Maureen then the R29 would be the boat for us, however with consideration for towing ease we felt the R27 would be better suited. Since delivery in August we've cruised the Puget Sound and San Juan Islands, towed the boat to Lake Powell and are currently anchored out on the west coast of Florida's ICW before we tow it to Michigan in April. Once we get beyond our first year with our R27 our plan is to be cruising somewhere (east coast, west coast, Canada) 4 months of the year and spend the balance at home. We've found the 27 relatively easy to tow and comfortable to cruise on, but that's us. I feel you're doing the right thing by asking questions. Once you decide on the boat then you'll need to do the same research for the truck, especially with cross country treks. You'll get a lot of suggestions about this but in the end you'll want at least a 3/4 ton, 4x4, diesel powered rig to do your towing.

Jim F

 

[commander bill]

I have the classic R25 which is no longer made. This will likely be my last boat & I hope to have at least 20 years of boating time left. Handling is very easy withthe thrusters. My main complaints with my boat have to do with accessability of working on things. That said it was very difficult to build these boats which have so much to offer in such a small package. It appears to me that the newer R25SC and R27 have improved accessability. The R25 and R27s are 8 1/2 feet wide and do not require permits in the 48 states. The R29 is wider and does require permits in some states. Many tow the R29 without issues but if you intend to move the boat between coasts often I would recommend that you consider the how, what, and when of towing a larger boat. My opinion is that you get a much better buy with the R27 without any noticable inpact on towing.

 

[Levitation]

Go Small
Go Cheap
Go Now

 

[JerryE]

Dennyis right, and always succinct!. But, keep in mind the classic R25 is not smaller the the R25sc; it's just configured differently. For cruising mostly with just one person, occasionally 2, the classic's cockpit is quite comfortable. It actually is close in useable size to an R29, whose cockpit is 5x9 ft. The larger cabin (with 2 portholes and there is a much larger access to the cave with about 16" more floor space without needing to fold up a dinette seat) is truly nice on extended cruising as one spends a lot of time inside. The kitchen counter is useable, while the sc model is much tighter. The R25 cost $10k more than the R25sc, so think about value.

I will admit having been on Ed Henn's new R27 Bay Ranger on Marathon Key a couple days ago that his huge cockpit (more room then on an R29 I suspect) was super nice for 4 of us! But, u won't find hardly any used R27s and a new one is going to cost... Buy a used classic R25 for a great price- there are over 200 out there. And, it will improve the market options for R25 owners (like me) to consider moving up to an R27! BTW Ed's traded-in R25 is priced well under $100k at the Chesapeake Ranger dealer, and it's nicely set up for cruising- he and Elaine put over 800 hours on her so she's broken in!

For a guy whose wife occasionally cruises with him (like me and, likely you) get the smaller cruiser now of which there are more used ones out there making it affordable now. U can move up later, but you'll realize life goes on and u don't get the time back- so make a move. I'm writing this, pre-retirement, while sitting in the sun on Key Largo on my boat; don't wait a minute longer than u have to by holding out for bigger; it's not always better.

 

[Shared Dream II]

Get the smallest boat your wife can be comfortable in and do it now.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Thanks to all who commented! I have PM'd most of you with follow up notes. Your advice is greatly appreciated and, frankly, fun to read. All of you say the same thing, however: get in as soon as money and spouse allow. Will do, and at this point it is looking like the used boat path is best.

Again, thanks!

Jeff

 

[Dale777]

Jeff,

Based on my view of life as shown in the diagram below, you should get a tug as soon as you can; sooner is better.

 

[bluebayou]

Thank you, Dale,
I always knew, that studying Venn diagrams would lead to some great insight !!!
You've said it all, and succinctly,
Charles

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Thanks Dale. And here I had worked out the complex math of the optimization problem, only to have it supplanted by a Venn diagram. Elegant and simple and now posted on the wall. Much appreciated. Now give me your boat.....

Kidding

Jeff

 

[knotflying]

Well, you heard it all from a lot of us and they are all on target with the reasons their choices were made, and as you can see it all boils down to personal choices and needs. Jess & I went with the R-27 because we felt it was a good compromise between ease of towing and bigger space on board. Our plans are very similar to Kismet. We plan on spending 3 months full time on ILLUSIONS and we are one week into that adventure now. We have a place on the water in RI and spend six months there and do several overnight trips and one week trips from there and have trailered the boat on the Cross Bronx Expressway over the George Washington Bridge with no problem. Our saying for our boat is “Cocktails for six, Dinner for four, sleeping for two.” We use the “cave” for storage and it is unbelievable what we have in there, two folding bikes, grill, 4 draw plastic storage cabinet (for food supplies), spare parts box, snorkel gear and wet suit for two, printer and clothes on the hanger. In general we have plenty of storage and plenty of room and we have been happy with our choice, we took delivery in April of 2011. The thrusters are great, but maneuvering in the wind and strong current is a challenge and you need to plan ahead and that is true on any size boat. The service from Ranger Tugs is impeccable as well as most of their product suppliers. Get the smallest boat that makes you the most comfortable in towing, living and handling and you will be happy with your choice.
Good luck and good boating,
Mike Rizzo