A Comment on the Autopilot Pump Issue

[Wee Venture]

I was going to post this comment on another thread but didn’t want to hijack it from the OP.

It is a positive comment. I have seen sentiment expressed that maybe Garmin doesn’t want to stand behind their products or the factory has been lax in continuing to install defective equipment. I believe nothing could be further from the truth and wanted to share my experience.

I also had the infamous “boat steers to port and wheel doesn’t lock” issue, before the check valve kit came out as a fix. Andrew personally followed up on this, offered troubleshooting tips, and then asked if some techs could come out to our boat to do a sea trial. I said of course!

All in all I ended up having six techs on our boat as we did our sea trial—representing Garmin, Uflex (hydraulic steering) and Fluid Motion. They used special equipment to measure pressures in the pump, made graphs, checked the electronics and consulted with each other to try to get a handle on what was going on. We spent two to three hours out there.

At the end of it they thanked me for my time, offered to upgrade our boat to a Smartpump at no cost and gave me a gift certificate to take my wife out to dinner at a nice restaurant in town. I have owned boats from other manufacturers and never came close to seeing that kind of follow-up. It was a class act.

I believe this problem was hard to pin down but not for want of trying. Newer Ranger Tug and Cutwater boats now have equipment that fixes this and there is now a fix for older boats. Just wanted to share my experience.

John

 

[BB marine]

John, I read your post to the thread and I agree that it awesome that the three manufactures got together to find out what the issue is after a few years of problems with the system. All fingers were always pointed to Garmin. When Talking to Garmin all fingers were pointed to Ranger/Cutwater. In my case they told me the install was not correct. I made installation based on the recommendations of Garmin and the issue went away. I had a C26 with smaller prop and power than the C28,C30 or R31 R29 so the forces were not as great against the rudder.

Here is what bothers me about this. The problem started years ago. Fluid Motion builds the boat, Installs Uflex Hydraulic steering in the boat. John Livingston should have first hand information on anything and everything about this system because he started and ran the US division of U-Flex, (a marine steering and control company.) He also is president of Fluid Motion the company that builds Ranger and Cutwaters. So he has two sticks in the barrel the third one is Garmin. If there were issues with this system in 2015 and 2016 why wait to start looking at it. Why would the Research and development department not go full swing into finding out the issue working with Garmin and Uflex. Tell Ranger and Cutwater owners if you have issues we will take care of them. There obviously was an issue with design. Who's design was the issue? That is the manufacture of the boats responsibility to find out. Not the owner of the boat that feels the boat and its equipment are installed with the confidence that Fluid motion put a stamp of approval on it that all systems are installed to perform properly. They build the boat and installed the equipment. Fluid Motion continued to install the equipment after there were issues. If after all the testing was done and a conclusion of the failure was determined this should be relayed to all owners that purchased the boats as to what was the cause of the failure and what is needed to repair the failure. If the need of a check valve kit is required because the check valves were bad in the Garmin equipment then Garmin should step up and Fluid Motion should be the responsible party making sure their customers are taken care of. If the Check valve kits are needed because the pump assemblies were not sized properly for the boats then Fluid Motion should step up and repair each and everyone that has a failure. If the issue was with the Uflex steering system being improperly sized. This is not the boat owners fault.

I agree that Fluid motion did you a "solid" . It is great that they got the research and development team together to find out what the issue is.

It is a positive comment. I have seen sentiment expressed that maybe Garmin doesn’t want to stand behind their products or the factory has been lax in continuing to install defective equipment. I believe nothing could be further from the truth and wanted to share my experience.

Your experience indicates that many owners statements are far from the truth because many did not have the same experience as you. Many spent time and money trying to fix the issue a few times without success. In 2015 and 2016 when several had experienced the issue that would have been the time to get the group together and brainstorm. Cudo's to them for finally figuring out what the issue was or still is for some folks. From your statement new owners do not have to experience the issue

I also had the infamous “boat steers to port and wheel doesn’t lock” issue, before the check valve kit came out as a fix. Andrew personally followed up on this, offered troubleshooting tips, and then asked if some techs could come out to our boat to do a sea trial. I said of course!

This is awesome. I know first hand that this was not the case for some other owners. I'm sure there are many that did have the same experience as you though.

It was a positive thread that you posted and it was good to read. I just believe that all Ranger and Cutwater owners should have the same experience as you did. Hopefully they will.

 

[SJI Sailor]

This raises two specific questions for me:

1. If SmartPump is the answer, why is it not installed now? (Or is it?)

2. If there was a problem for specific years, what were they? When did it start? Which model year became "OK" again?

I agree it is wonderful when things are worked out, but a little more information might help us be more proactive 🙂

 

[Chimo]

This raises two specific questions for me:

1. If SmartPump is the answer, why is it not installed now? (Or is it?)

2. If there was a problem for specific years, what were they? When did it start? Which model year became "OK" again?

I agree it is wonderful when things are worked out, but a little more information might help us be more proactive 🙂

SJI Sailor beat me to it! I was about to post the same questions and add a couple.

Brian mentions that it seems to apply to larger tugs. What models? Is my 2017 RT25SC OK? I've never had a problem but I don't want one. That's a safety question for me. How do I check what unit I have on board and if I have a check valve? I confess I've never looked at the autopilot pump since it's never been a problem. Mea Culpa! Now I will have to find it.

 

[Wee Venture]

It is a positive comment. I have seen sentiment expressed that maybe Garmin doesn’t want to stand behind their products or the factory has been lax in continuing to install defective equipment. I believe nothing could be further from the truth and wanted to share my experience.

Your experience indicates that many owners statements are far from the truth because many did not have the same experience as you. Many spent time and money trying to fix the issue a few times without success. In 2015 and 2016 when several had experienced the issue that would have been the time to get the group together and brainstorm. Cudo's to them for finally figuring out what the issue was or still is for some folks. From your statement new owners do not have to experience the issue

Brian, I appreciate your thorough and considered response to my post. You are right, I haven’t walked in other people’s shoes and can’t speak for their experience, nor was that my intent. We all make assumptions based on our own experiences and the information we have at hand. Tugnuts is a place where problems are shared, as it should be. But sometimes people reading about those problems can make assumptions that may be unwarranted (IMO)—like that FM has dropped the ball or Garmin doesn’t want to back their products. This is because Tugnuts posts are skewed toward people having problems that need fixing rather than people who have had great experiences. So my intent was to provide some alternative input for people to take into consideration when making judgments. “Nothing could be further from the truth” was a poor choice of words; I should have said, “my experience has been very different.”

If there were issues with this system in 2015 and 2016 why wait to start looking at it. Why would the Research and development department not go full swing into finding out the issue working with Garmin and Uflex. Tell Ranger and Cutwater owners if you have issues we will take care of them. There obviously was an issue with design. Who's design was the issue? That is the manufacture of the boats responsibility to find out.

I think the assumption here is that FM and Garmin did in fact “wait to start looking at it.” Some equipment problems can be very elusive as, Brian, I am sure you are aware, having been immersed in the industry for years. Some failures are black and white, others are not. When I was talking with the techs, they were clearly very invested in finding out what was going on and clearly frustrated because they had been trying to troubleshoot for quite some time.

Many pumps would work just fine, others had problems. There was not an obvious reason for this. Various theories were explored—chips getting into the lines during assembly, the manifold setup, internal valves leaking, a defective batch of pumps. One Garmin tech told me that “defective” pumps would be returned to the Garmin factory after being replaced, the factory would then test them in their labs under pressure and they would check out fine. At one point Garmin techs went to the FM factory to observe assembly procedures, with both sides wanting to troubleshoot the problem.

This is why the techs were all on my boat, and a couple of others I believe, arranged by Andrew—to try to catch a problem “in the act” that had been very hard to pin down.

So the point of my post was not so much to point out how they had taken care of me personally (the extra special treatment there from Garmin/FM was a thank you for putting up with all the techs on our boat while I took them in endless runs and circles while they messed with my AP equipment); the point was to suggest (from my perspective) that both FM and Garmin did care a great deal about their products and their customer base and were working to try to figure things out.

John

 

[BB marine]

John, I did appreciate your post for its intent. I understood your points and all good ones. I personally do not think Garmin dropped the ball nor do I think that Fluid Motion was over looking a known issue. I agree it could have been one of many issues causing the failures. In General my experiences with Garmin has been excellent. When I had issues with the autopilot/ steering system The customer service rep. walked me through each troubleshooting step. He advised to flush the system because the have taken units apart and found (debris in the check Valves) Plumb the pump as per their installation manual "do not plumb all lines to the valve body use a tee fitting" "move the shadow drive solenoid closer to the helm" ..... After following the directions and installing the pump as per Garmin's recommendations my problems went away.( smaller boat less power) Garmin has helped me numerous times with questions and taken as much time as needed. Fluid Motion has always been there to answer questions too. I have never sent Andrew an Email that he has not responded back within the day. I will admit I'm not always happy with his responses but he probably always isn't happy with some of my questions. 😀 ! John I read your post, I personally appreciated its content, in many cases a positive comment has more value then a negative comment.

My comments were not intended to contradict your post. You had a good experience and that needs to be told so other owners can see there are answers to what caused the issue and resolutions. The known factor, there is /was an issue. From your post it sounds like they have found the cause. If I was to "assume" the issue was the pump sizing. If using a different pump resolves the issue then possibly the original pump was marginal. When the holes in the cheese lined up there was a failure.

Great post and good information John. You provided a positive post with good information for other Ranger and Cutwater owners that have had autopilot issues. There is a fix.

 

[Gypsy]

I to have had to endure the Garmin steering problem. My boat was still under factory warranty so Cutwater sent me the check valve repair kit and agreed to pay for the repair. The repair bill was $1019 which I had to pay. I sent the invoice via email to Cutwater on July 9th. to get reimbursed. Cutwater informed me that instead of them paying, they were forwarding the invoice on to Garmin who would pay me directly. It is now the end of July and I still have not been reimbursed. I feel that, for improved customer service, it would have been better for Cutwater to reimburse me first, then settle up with Garmin.

 

[Wee Venture]

You had a good experience and that needs to be told so other owners can see there are answers to what caused the issue and resolutions. The known factor, there is /was an issue. From your post it sounds like they have found the cause. If I was to "assume" the issue was the pump sizing. If using a different pump resolves the issue then possibly the original pump was marginal. When the holes in the cheese lined up there was a failure.

Brian, thanks for your very positive post. And I appreciate the fact that you are still active on this forum even though you are still (I think) without a boat yourself. We all value your contributions.

When I said that newer FM boats now have equipment that fixes this, I was referring to the fact that new boats (at least the R-27 and up) are now being equipped with the Smartpump according to my understanding. The Smartpump comes supplied with the external valve kit attached as a matter of course. I believe you are right that the smaller pump, though perhaps within spec, was probably marginal for the larger boats and a Garmin tech told me as much. To be fair, he didn’t say it was mismatched, but that the Smartpump would handle the forces better on that size boat. When I asked him if the Smartpump was really that much stronger, his response was that they’re installing them on 70ft yachts. Since installing the Smartpump I have never had an issue with my steering or AP.

Does that mean that the entire issue was that the supplied pump was undersized? I don’t think it’s quite that cut and dried. The older pumps were being used for years without a problem but evidently something changed. Not sure the exact story but the bottom line, as you know, is that on some pumps there has been internal leakage in the valves, allowing hydraulic forces from the manual steering pump at the helm to bleed back off through the AP pump allowing the rudder to drift. But the external valve kit appears to be the fix for that from what I’ve been able to see.

John

 

[Mr Ben]

I have a 2016 25sc with 254 hours to date. I occasionally have this problem. I had it bad Wednesday night so I did a search on here looking for answers. I went out yesterday and everything was normal. I bought the boat with 110 hours last spring. In the 144 hours I have run the boat this has happened maybe 3 or 4 times. The steering will work at slow speeds when it happens so I have never been completely out of control. As the third owner of a 6 year old vessel I don't see FM, Garmin and others flying a bunch of techs over to Grand Haven MI to help me out. Guess thats why I am here. Where I boat on the river its like traveling down an interstate highway on the weekend. Lots of boats going in both directions, often at high speed. This could be a very serious safety issue. If this where to happen in a car or airplane I think some outside forces would be on it. Was there an actual recall type response to this issue? Did my 25sc slip through the cracks? Am I responsible for diagnosing, sourcing parts and resolving this on my own?

 

[Wee Venture]

I have a 2016 25sc with 254 hours to date. I occasionally have this problem. I had it bad Wednesday night so I did a search on here looking for answers. I went out yesterday and everything was normal. I bought the boat with 110 hours last spring. In the 144 hours I have run the boat this has happened maybe 3 or 4 times. The steering will work at slow speeds when it happens so I have never been completely out of control. As the third owner of a 6 year old vessel I don't see FM, Garmin and others flying a bunch of techs over to Grand Haven MI to help me out. Guess thats why I am here. Where I boat on the river its like traveling down an interstate highway on the weekend. Lots of boats going in both directions, often at high speed. This could be a very serious safety issue. If this where to happen in a car or airplane I think some outside forces would be on it. Was there an actual recall type response to this issue? Did my 25sc slip through the cracks? Am I responsible for diagnosing, sourcing parts and resolving this on my own?

You have a great boat! I like that model. You chose to buy a six year old previously owned vessel which I think can be a great choice, one that I have made in the past. However, that puts you “in the same boat” with the rest of us who either bought previously owned or have had to maintain a boat that is out of warranty. So yes, it is on you to either do it yourself or pay someone else to do it.

There was never a recall, and IMO no need for one. You said it yourself: “The steering will work at slow speeds when it happens so I have never been completely out of control.” When I experienced the problem, as well as others that I am aware of, the steering worked fine at slow speeds. And slowing down is the first thing we should think of if we are concerned about safety.

I don’t know if what you are experiencing is the same issue or not. It could be but to my knowledge it is usually not an occasional problem that manifests suddenly and dramatically. Does your wheel lock firmly when you turn it all the way to port or starboard…or does it slowly and endlessly continue to turn as you apply a little torque to it?

There are three brass screws on the back of the autopilot pump that you can screw in to block out the pump from the hydraulic system. This takes less than a minute once you reach the pump. You should not use the autopilot after you do this. If the wheel locks now and the problem does not reoccur, you have just diagnosed the problem. If you are concerned about safety, you can just leave those screws seated in the lockout position, take the fuse out of the autopilot, and drive manually until you wish to get the autopilot repaired. The autopilot is a convenience and not a safety feature of course. When mine went out, I drove all the way from Juneau AK to Seattle manually. It was good practice.

If you determine the autopilot pump is the problem, you can get an external valve kit that attaches to the back of the pump. You (or the boatyard) may need some extra fittings to make it work and will then need to bleed the system of air. There are lots of threads on this forum that discuss these issues. Good luck!

John

 

[CaptT]

Mine didn't work at slow speeds or any speed.
It's not physically possible to leave the helm in an extremely busy inlet on a Sunday afternoon and crawl under a hatch to turn in three brass screws.
At the time it happened, I was scared to death my wife and I were going to get seriously hurt or worse, hurt someone else.
John I'm trying not to make this personal but don't make it sound like you know what you're talking about...you don't. I fixed my own steering system, rebuilt it twice, 2 pumps, $1,200, first one and $420 for the second. Another $240 for the check valve + $120 for the hydraulicfittings, (and, by the way, no, the check valve does not go behind the pump). After going through all this, and talking to experts in the field, I still believe it is and was a faulty design/ product. I just hope and pray no one ever gets hurt or killed, due to the ENTIRE LOSS OF STEERING, no matter what the speed of the boat. If it does happen, the lawyers will get involved and that generally doesn't end well. Even though I have six of them in my family! :roll:
Let's just all take a deep breath and hope it never gets to this point. I am happy Fluid Motions took care of your issue professionally, I've always found them extremely customer service oriented and they have helped me numerous times in the past.
Final question, if you were driving an used vehicle slowly and still hurt someone because you couldn't steer.....would you be upset?
Mr Ben has a right to be upset. I know I was when it happened to me.

 

[CruisingElvinRay]

Read the disclaimer that you click OK on every time the Chart Plotter is turned on. Or have one of your 6 family lawyers do it. On mine, it ends with “you assume all risk for the use of this device.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[BB marine]

Read the disclaimer that you click OK on every time the Chart Plotter is turned on. Or have one of your 6 family lawyers do it. On mine, it ends with “you assume all risk for the use of this device.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The issue has nothing to do with the chart plotter. The issue does not happen when using the electronics. The problem is when navigating in stand-by and not using the autopilot. The hydraulics leak past the check valves and the rudder moves from the forces from the prop wash or in the case of the outboard from steering torque from the prop rotation . This is not a new issue it has been happening for more than 5 years. For the folks that have had helm and steering issues without assistance from Garmin or Fluid Motion it is upsetting. For the ones that own a Ranger or Cutwater and have not had an issue this does't mean you will not have an issue if operating with this equipment. For the folks that have had assistance from Fluid motion or Garmin they have a positive story to tell. Hopefully in the future everyone will have the same story to tell.

 

[LakeErieC28]

Is there a way to poll the membership to get a sense of the percentage that have had the autopilot pump leakage and resultant pull to Port steering problem? Whether un-addressed, fixed personally, fixed professionally, taken care of by their dealer, by Garmin, or by fluid motion, I am interested more in the percentage that have experienced it in the first place.

2014 Cutwater 28 - I have experienced it and continue to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Toki]

Wee Venture, thanks for sharing your experience. That is indeed a story of exemplary customer service! It's also indicative of FM finally understanding the magnitude and seriousness of this problem and getting involved.

What's the bottom line here? You say "and there is now a fix for older boats". Is this replacement with the SmartPump? Is the idea here that FM helps with the service and cost on this, or is it the owners responsibility to shell out a few BOAT bucks for the repair?

 

[SJI Sailor]

Another question: if this started at some point, and now is fixed, what is that time period? When did it start and when was it fixed? Which models of RT and CW?

If we knew that, then owners who are in-between could make a more informed decision about whether to change pumps or valves proactively.

 

[it4llc]

FWIW, we've got a 2020 C28 and had to install the check valve kit to fix the issue.

 

[Wee Venture]

Wee Venture, thanks for sharing your experience. That is indeed a story of exemplary customer service! It's also indicative of FM finally understanding the magnitude and seriousness of this problem and getting involved.

What's the bottom line here? You say "and there is now a fix for older boats". Is this replacement with the SmartPump? Is the idea here that FM helps with the service and cost on this, or is it the owners responsibility to shell out a few BOAT bucks for the repair?

Thanks Toki, and you’re welcome. First of all, as far as there being a fix and what FM is doing now, I am only sharing what has been publicly posted on Tugnuts. For example:

The check valve was actually a recent thing added to the 2.0 liter pumps. We spent a lot of time troubleshooting this with Garmin when they realized the internal valves were failing. Basically, the pump has an internal valve that was failing allowing the fluid to bypass in the system which in turn allowed the rudder to drift whether you were using the pilot or not. The external valve kit could be added without replacing the pump which should solve the issue.

In regard to the Garmin site, they added the comment about using the valve kit with the smaller pumps from troubleshooting and working with us and other manufacturers. We had used this pump for nearly six years prior to ever experiencing one failure so it wasn't something that was happening on older boats. Components change, place of manufacturing changes and I am sure this can attribute to some unknown issues when switching out parts. We are now using the smart pumps on the autopilot systems that have the same check valve kit mounted directly to the pump. Having an all in one package makes it easier and why we made the change.

I can’t speak for what FM and Garmin will do in any individual case moving forward. The bottom line of my original post was what they *did* do for me, and to share evidence that they were actively working to solve an elusive problem and take care of their customers.

The facts of my situation:
We bought our R-31CB new directly from the factory because we had been hearing about their exemplary customer service and wanted to have a full warranty.
We started having the “pulling to port” problem while the boat was still under warranty.
The factory was very responsive when I reported the problem and suggested screwing in the three brass screws as a test. Meanwhile I did as much research as I could on the problem.
The factory said they planned to replace the pump and I told Andrew if they were going to replace the pump anyway, could they replace it with a Smartpump and I would be happy to pay the difference.
Andrew said in a later email that they were having some techs coming to town to troubleshoot and FM wanted them to have access to a boat that was actively having problems; could they come to my boat?
After the techs from Garmin, Uflex and FM spent over two hours with me at the helm driving them around while they took hoses off, power bled the system, took their readings and messed with the electronics, one of the Garmin techs thanked me for putting up with all of that and said they would replace my pump with a Smartpump at no charge (I didn’t ask or expect them to do this at no additional cost).
I have had the Smartpump for almost three years now and there has been no reoccurrence of the problem. (I did have a separate AP problem unrelated to the pump and that was also fixed by Garmin under warranty.)

So that’s basically what I know.

John