A riddle.

[misinger]

My wife and I own a 2016 Ranger Tug
R - 27. We purchased it from the original owner and had a marine survey done prior to purchase. I will say that all our interactions with Ranger Tugs both at their factory, during rendezvous’s and ordering parts has been a positive experience. Thank you Andrew for such a professional response to this boaters concerns. Well done !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[asm777]

Hi Jim, sorry to hear about your troubles.

I noted that in another post, you had stated:

Finally, 3 weeks ago, we bought our 2016 (splashed 2018) 29S after saving the money to buy one.

If splashed in January 2018, even though the hull is a 2016, at most it has been "in service" for 20 months and if splashed towards the end of 2018, it could have been "in service" for less than a year?

I actually don't know whether Ranger/Cutwater warranty is transferable but from Andrew's post that it's out of warranty, I'll infer that it's been over a year.

Still, some issues don't get noticed or discovered if the boat isn't used much so I'm intrigued by your "Riddle" and wonder what kind of issue you were asking for help with.

You mentioned "promises made in writing" and "mistakes made by it's franchisees". If I may venture a guess, somebody at a dealer (a human) made a mistake telling you that the factory would fix some issue for free even though it's out of warranty?

Fixing and replacing things is a constant battle in boat ownership as water (and salt depending on where you boat) have a tendency to damage and destroy things. Last year, had an unexpected expense due to an out-of-warranty metal bracket failure that broke in our generator (still no idea how or why it broke) and this year we proactively replaced a few parts/hoses on our Volvo engine to prevent future bigger expense to fix... $$$ for a few short lengths of rubber!! :shock:

As evident from all the other posts supporting Ranger/Cutwater, the factory has often gone above and beyond to support its owners in contrast to experiences with many other boat manufacturers.

I like to believe that our boat was the exception rather than the rule in the number of issues we had to resolve to get the boat to 100%. A lot of time was spent in the first few years resolving issues but both the factory and the manufacturers of the components that needed replacing stood by their products and worked to ensure issues were addressed. Considering what it costs to have a technician evaluate/repair things, how much value does Ranger/Cutwater provide for free when you can call them for help?? And having factory support on speed dial is great when you find yourself in trouble on a weekend... but that's another story. :lol:

As others have already stated, whether buying new or used, all boats will have issues (especially boats that just sit in salt water with little use) and having a survey completed is critical to ensure one knows what they are getting into.

I recall that our surveyor came up with a list of "items to fix" even on our new purchase because while boat manufacturers design and intend for high quality, at the end of the day, it's humans building these boats and sometimes, quality issues can surface (as BB Marine explained in detail in his earlier post).

I would chalk this up to learning experience (always get a survey!), plan to spend a small portion of the $$$ you saved by not buying new on fixing your issues (and at factory's cost for parts versus paying for 200%+ marine-markup prices at WestMarine! :lol: ) and get out and enjoy your boat!

 

[Salty7]

Did I miss what the problem(s) is/are? Anyhow, I will add to this post by saying I have owned many boats in my lifetime and our tug has to be right up there as the most fun boat, also one of the easiest to maintain. All boats need maintenance and that is the owner's responsibility. I bought this boat used, despite having lots of experience with boats I had the boat surveyed and would never purchase a boat without one, the survey turned up a handful of small issues which I fixed in an afternoon. The combination of this forum and support from the factory makes owning one of these boats a real pleasure. I hope you fix your boat and go on to enjoy it. It sounds like the factory is going overboard to help you move forward.

 

[bill46]

We bought a two year old R31CB four years ago. We had a survey, and dealer, Seagate in Stuart, corrected all issues found in survey. Since Seagate is no longer a dealer, we have found a local Volvo mechanic for routine maintenance. Andrew in parts has been excellent suppling needed parts or links to vendors. He helped us get with Bennett to warranty broken trim tabs. Ranger builds a great well engineered boat and provides support years after purchase.

 

[JollyRogers]

Mr. Custis:

You and your staff cut off communications with us. You forced this into the public realm.

In our correspondence you defended yourself with (paraphrased) this was an early model and it was deeply discounted. So, that releases you from your responsibility to delivering basic quality?

Want the details folks? Here you go.

One portlight leaks and one, in the head, was slathered in with something that appears to rubber cement applied by a 4 year old. My bowhatches are cracked. My cockpit canvas track is cracked. My batteries failed because your dealer installed a lead acid battery in a system with gel batteries. So I had to replace them all at $2300. The entire helm fiberglass is covered in a thin layer of irregular varnish. Your dealer will not even explain how to remove whatever improper material they bonded the cockpit hardtop to the pilot house hardtop. There are scraps of sealant everywhere on the hull and windows. I scraped the windows off very painstakingly myself with a razor blade.

Your representative Kevin Lamont said, "I would not have let this boat leave the factory like this."

Your representative Ralf Henkel promised new bow hatch frames and and cockpit canvas track over 5 weeks ago. Nothing has been sent.

The boat was splashed in May 2018. You misstate this as a 4 year old boat as if it was in the salt water for 4 years hoping people will take your side. Sad.

We, like the others here, are most generally happy with the boat's performance. We are planning to keep the boat. But there are real issues here and you know there are as has been documented in person with your representative, in photography and writing.

Nice job misleading your customers.

 

[Matty]

Still seems main point is you did not get a survey that would have found these issues. Still seems used and out of warranty. From issues you describe it sounds like someone did some things to the boat after it left factory. Would not seem to be a ranger tug issue. But nice to see they have tried to help. They are good that way.

 

[Kimberly Dawn]

Jim & Rita,

I am sorry for your predicament and I know you want to be mad at someone. I believe, from what you've described, rather than point the finger you need to pull the thumb!

One can't look at a portlight and tell if it's going to leak, but even with a cursory visual inspection one can see sloppy sealant work. Even with a cursory inspection one can see a crack in the hatch frame, or in the cockpit canvas track. How could you overlook a helm finish that's reprehensible to you now but not say something about it when you were physically there inspecting the boat?

If a dealer has agreed to fix something (in writing), or if a dealer is responsible for ruining your battery system, go back to that dealer and hold them accountable. How do you figure this is the boat manufacturer's responsibility?

No one on this forum wishes you ill, but not many of us will stand idly by while another unjustly casts blame on a company we know and respect.

I wish you well!

Bob
The Doghouse 2

 

[bob daily]

Just a quick question, was this a used boat or a left over New 2016 model that you folks bought in 2018 at a reduced price since it was sitting on the dealers lot for 2 years?
If new and represented as a left over model with full factory warrantee I wouldn't have got a survey either, I think there is more to this story!
Remember that most folks are like a bob-wire fence. They have their good points!
Hope all workers out well for all, and the Jolly Rodgers are once again Jolly!
Bob

 

[scross]

One thing to remember is that a boat dealer is not the manufacturer. The manufacturer has little actual control over the work performed by the dealer. This is true for cars as well as boats. The manufacturer can provide information and training to the dealer but can’t prevent dealer errors.
If the dealer mixed a flooded battery within a set of AGMs that is total incompetence and I would take a dealer who did that to small claims if they balked at covering the costs of replacing all the batteries! But it’s a dealer issue, not the manufacturer’s fault.
But a pre-purchase survey should have caught a blatant error like that before all the batteries were fried. Most of the other problem listed appear to be prior owner damage or poor maintenance, not a manufacturer related defect. But problems like the ones listed should have been caught and disclosed by the dealer- if they were reputable.
If I were Judge Judy, and based on the OP’s description of the problems, I’d split the blame for this mess between the buyer and dealer.
Please, please everyone get a survey done before buying any used boat!

 

[Huck]

Warning....Sarcasm Ahead!

A “New” riddle.
What kind of a company promises a brand new, NOT USED, ball cap if you become a member of “Tugnuts”, their online Ranger Tug and Cutwater boats forum, and then doesn’t follow through? I have been a member for almost 3 whole weeks, and nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Oh sure, I could buy my own ball cap that would keep my head warm, but then I wouldn’t be able to throw a tantrum, in public, to try to gain sympathy and allies.

I’m just sayin.....!

 

[CaspersCruiser]

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. This board is controlled by Fluid Motion, maker of Ranger Tug and Cutwater boats. Even though they have every right to do so, it speaks volumes about the company that they do not take down a bile spewing rant posted by a disgruntled owner unhappy with a purchase of an unsurveyed boat. They let him say his piece. The only official response has been a measured reply rebutting some of his points.

 

[BB marine]

Honestly we should all cut JollyRoger some slack. He purchased a 3 model year old boat that had a commission date of May of 2018. I assume in his thinking this was a 2016 model year boat with a year of use. It is a Ranger Tug which is known to be a Quality built boat. What could be wrong with it? Two months after purchasing this new to him Ranger Tug he is at a Ranger Tug Rendezvous and a factory rep inspects the issues,

Your representative Kevin Lamont said, "I would not have let this boat leave the factory like this."

Then in correspondence with a factory rep, "In our correspondence you defended yourself with (paraphrased) this was an early model and it was deeply discounted."

I assume that JollyRodger at this point is seeing that the known quality of the Ranger Tug is not evident in his relatively new but USED Ranger. He is also seeing it was not failure of the previous owner to maintain but the neglect of the selling dealer and Manufacturer to build and deliver a quality product. Think about it, The boat is built in 2016, commissioned in 2018. Any and every defect in workmanship should have been fixed. There is no excuse for the Ranger dealer not reviewing and completing the check sheets and making warranty repairs to this boat before it was delivered in 2018. There is no excuse for the workmanship that Kevin Lamont saw when he made the statement,"I would not have let this boat leave the factory like this."
[/quote]

I know how he feels. I Purchased a new Cutwater in 2016. I didn't really look into the complete construction and build of the boat. I listened to the salesman and looked at the design and layout of the boat. It Gleamed Quality, why would I expect it to be anything but Quality. I never inspected the boat, it was "Brand NEW". We paid for the boat in February and took delivery the last week of April. The dealer had the boat for 2 months to get ready for delivery. When we took delivery we had a punch list that filled a page, No check sheet filled out, No engine PDI completed. After a month of owning the boat I did start inspecting the boat and found many areas of substandard quality, installations that were questionable and didn't meet ABYC recommendations, I could go on..... Everytime I work on our boat my wife always comments " while your working on it don't look for something else wrong with it." I usually Do! If you are a (start the engine go boating) Ranger/Cutwater owner you don't know what I'm talking about. If you are a( DIY Ranger/Cutwater owner) you do! The point is I learned my lesson. No matter how well built or quality built you think a boat is, before handing the check over, have a second set of eyes look the boat over. Have it surveyed. Have it surveyed when you are available to look it all over. Have copy of the factory check sheet available to go over. Don't rely on the factory or the dealer. Do it yourself. Rely on the dealer and factory for things that come up during the warranty year, The factory support is good. There will be things that fail or were not caught during inspection but chances are much less. I believe if I did this, (1) I would not have handed the check over and purchased the Cutwater. (2) I would have realized that the Cutwater is built the same as any other production boat in the market and they may have some quality control issues. But I really like the boat so I'm going to purchase it any way. I'm going to say I probably would have gone with (2).

JollyRodger, (lick your wounds like many of us have) Fix the boat the way you expected and wanted it to be. Believe me its a never ending project. ( Not just a Ranger or Cutwater all boats) Enjoy your boat. With all the issues they are still a darn good boat.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I’ll add my experiences…

I’ve been boating for over 50 years, and my R31-S is by far the nicest boat I’ve owned. I expect it to provide years (decades) of safe, dependable, comfortable cruising as I enjoy my retirement. That being said, I chose RT for several reasons, not the least of which was the factory’s stellar reputation for customer service, and also the loyal customer base.

All boats are compromises. ALL of them. I imagine Fluid Motion is cranking boats out of their factories as fast as they can, while trying to maintain a reasonable level of QC. The fact that they recommend a two day shake down/orientation at delivery and have an eight page checklist seems to suggest that they know that there will be some items that will fall through the cracks and need to be addressed. More importantly, it demonstrates a commitment to getting their boats ‘right’ within a reasonable period of time after delivery. I’m sure most (all) of us would have preferred that our boats were ‘right’ at delivery, but how much more would we be willing to pay for that luxury? I’d gladly have paid another $1k to have avoided the hassles of fixing stuff. Perhaps spending the extra $2.5k for a factory delivery experience, plus the cost of airfare and lodging, might have been a good investment.

My boat had a fairly long list of things that were in need of correction, much longer than I would have expected at this price point. To their credit, my dealer (Pocket Yachts) has been terrific in getting these items rectified, and I’m hoping that in the near future everything will be as it should have been when the boat was delivered.

The only concern I have going forward is the Garmin Auto Pilot pump. There’s a thread on Tug Nuts that addresses issues from folks who have experienced similar issues with failure of these pumps. As I write this, I am awaiting a tech’s visit to install my first replacement pump (the first one failed with about 20 hours on the boat). If the replacement pump is the same model that has failed before, it concerns me that this one will fail as well. The only ‘fixes’ that I’ve read about on this forum are to either add a (band aid) check valve kit (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/28647) or upgrade to one of the Smart Pumps (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/10792 ... 0#overview). In correspondence with Andrew at the factory, I offered to pay the increased cost of the smart pump over the standard pump, but haven’t heard back yet. Oh well. I guess their approach will be to keep replacing the same unit. Seems a bit like the definition of insanity… expecting different results from the same operation.

Other than that, I have found everybody involved to be honest, helpful and genuinely concerned for the welfare of the boats and their customers. While I can somewhat understand the OP’s frustration, in light of all the information presented it seems that he could have prevented most (if not all) of that by exercising due diligence in following the recommendation to get a pre-purchase survey, and having the shortcomings addressed in the purchase contract.

 

[JollyRogers]

For the record I sought out and spoke to 4 NAMS surveyors with access to the boat in Rockport, MA.

Each surveyor I spoke with refused to take my money saying Ranger Tugs is a quality boat and they would be stealing from me to survey a boat splashed in May 2018. And, honestly, I understood, because we had sea trialed one two summers prior and the boat was great.

So, shame on me for taking 4 surveyors' advice and relenting toward my original generally informed opinion.

Let me state clearly, we like the boat's performance overall. We are keeping the boat. We appreciate RT having people at the Rendezvous.

Our problem is the lack of communication, concern and ethics.

I teach marketing to college students. Ethics is a topic covered in depth. Four simple steps to proper ethics to customer service beyond reproach are: Legal, Just, Transparent, Socially Responsible. RT definitely has the legal box checked off in my case. The socially responsible bit can be removed from this list for our purposes here. It's the justice, balancing of facts and circumstances, and the lack of transparency pieces that are missing. They just stopped communicating in September without comment. (Even the goodwill items promised haven't been delivered.)

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

After hearing from Jim n Rita and Andrew Custis, if it was me involved, I’d suggest that it’s time again to pick up the phone to make contact with each other. I’ve read and heard about other contentious situations in the past that resolved themselves by compromise from both sides....I’d include the dealer as well.....but in my opinion this is best accomplished by one on one phone calls. It’s worth a try.

Jim F

 

[bob daily]

Being a simple type of a guy, I'm having a problem following this!
Was this a used boat? And did the previous owner use it (splashed in May-2018)?
Usually a vessel / boat only gets commissioned / splashed once!
Just because there was a name on a title doesn't indicate usage.
If pre owned for how long, type of use, and reason for sale?
What was promised (in writing) on the purchase agreement?
Who did the work that you are unsatisfied with? The factory or dealer?
Yes the squeaky wheel usually gets greased first, but is usually the first one to be replaced!
I will give Fluid Motions LLC high ratings for customer service and this web site for keeping up with there customers thoughts and problems.
No one is perfect, however it is expected to get a quality product for a fair price!
Grandpa always said if you can't trust a man's word, you shouldn't do business with him!
Bob

 

[JollyRogers]

Thanks, as usual, to Jim Favors. I'll pick up the phone when I've cooled off a bit. Likely next week. Not productive going into a conversation frustrated to the point of anger.

First splashed in May 2018 by prior owner. We purchased in June 2019. Hope that clarifies.

 

[Andrew Custis]

Just to clarify, this boat was originally built in December of 2015. It arrived at the dealership in January of 2016. The boat was used as a dealer demonstrator from January of 2016 until February of 2018. It was then sold to the first owner and delivered in February of 2018. I personally sold this boat to the owner at the Boston Boat Show. The boat was very clean and kept nice.

The repairs and many of the photographs we had seen were not done at the factory level which is the sticking point. Like anything, a boat can only sit in inventory for so long before maintenance and other items are needed. It went through three MA winters over its life. The owner used it for a year and a few months before selling it through a brokerage in MA. The boat was serviced and maintained through Winter Island Yacht Yard during its (almost) four year life.

 

[Bobby P.]

ollyRogers,

Sorry that this is such a struggle. I once bought a used boat from a dealer who looked me in the eye and said, "This is a great boat at a great price. You'd be throwing your money away on a survey." Well, lesson learned. I should have thrown that money away the the time!

Have you considered getting a survey now? That way you'd know where you are with all systems, etc., perhaps reducing further surprises. I'd also do an oil analysis. Finding things out sooner than later is always good. This might objectify things and get you going in the right direction. I read in an earlier post that fluid motion said that they would supply you with parts at cost, technical assistance and instruction. That's a pretty good offer. You might want to survey, get your ducks in a row, and take advantage of that offer while it's still on the table.

We bought our boat used, only 60 hours, in showroom condition. A survey turned up many things, all of which were taken care of by the broker (a Ranger Tug dealer), paid for by the seller, or negotiated into the price.

On our first big voyage out, the a/c pump failed. Once we got it fixed, we were happy again. Get fixed and get happy again is a good mantra. You are probably not as far as you think from that.

Best of luck,
Bobby P.

 

[Karll]

We just purchased a 2014 Ranger Tug 29. Before this one we made an offer on a 2012. The Marine Survey showed water problems from a failed bilge pump. We backed out and had another survey on the one we currently now own. We were present during both surveys, it was very helpful to talk to the surveyor during the inspection. I can’t emphasis the importance enough. The first boat that we backed out on, the owner came back with a price lower than the cost of the survey but it wasn’t enough for us to take the risk.
On another note I would not trust any dealer that told me that a marine survey was a waste of money!
Karll