AC Wiring Problems Cutwater 28

[Century Bay]

I was back down to the boat yesterday tinkering around and learning more about how things work. One positive thing from the virus is that I have time to do that now. One goal I have is to develop an operations manual that fully describes how everything operates and can be easily followed by anyone new to the boat.
As I learn more about the boat I unfortunately find new problems. It seems that the 120 volt AC may not be wired properly and thought I would ask if anyone has seen the following:

With the boat connected to shore power the outlets in the off position show a red fault light and when tested with a voltmeter indicate 24 volts residual with their respective switches still in the off position.
Also the normally green pilot lights on the various individual switches do not come on when in the on position for the 4 on the left side directly below the rotary selector switch. The switches on the right side do come on green when the switch is in the on position.

Having discovered this I have disconnected shore power until I can trouble shoot and resolve. I see this as a major issue both for safety and for potential equipment damage.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thank you
Century Bay

 

[BradOwens]

Have you tested the shore power pedestal? Electrical is my weak spot for boat maintenance, but it sounds like the hot and neutral may be reversed.

 

[iggy]

I don't know the boat! But the outlets are GFI? If the hot & neutral were swapped, the outlets should trip. The AC panel, does it have a reverse polarity light?

But as mentioned, I would start at the power station and work back.

 

[Kevin Lamont]

I was back down to the boat yesterday tinkering around and learning more about how things work. One positive thing from the virus is that I have time to do that now. One goal I have is to develop an operations manual that fully describes how everything operates and can be easily followed by anyone new to the boat.
As I learn more about the boat I unfortunately find new problems. It seems that the 120 volt AC may not be wired properly and thought I would ask if anyone has seen the following:

With the boat connected to shore power the outlets in the off position show a red fault light and when tested with a voltmeter indicate 24 volts residual with their respective switches still in the off position.
Also the normally green pilot lights on the various individual switches do not come on when in the on position for the 4 on the left side directly below the rotary selector switch. The switches on the right side do come on green when the switch is in the on position.

Having discovered this I have disconnected shore power until I can trouble shoot and resolve. I see this as a major issue both for safety and for potential equipment damage.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thank you
Century Bay

Hello,

Could you please email me your HULL ID number? kevinlamont@rangertugs.com. I also agree with the past two responses that checking the power at the pedestal would be a good start and also letting me know if your panel on the boat indicates a reverse polarity issue.

Thank you,
Kevin Lamont

 

[Century Bay]

Thanks for the suggestions. I checked out the shore power and did some testing. The electrical problems with our Cutwater 28 are very strange indeed and more so each time I look at it. With only 30 hours on the boat I am still in the learning mode.

As suggested I verified the shore power in the boathouse was correctly wired. The boathouse has been in service for 40 years and I did not expect to find a problem but I checked anyway. I removed the covers on the 30 amp receptacle box and checked to physically see that the green ground was connected to the ground terminal (L shaped socket), the black hot was connected to the longer of the two remaining sockets, and lastly the white neutral was connected to the smallest.
With cover off I metered the terminals to verify 120 volts between hot and neutral and between hot and ground. No voltage was detected between neutral and ground.

Now I turned my attention to the AC Power Distribution Panel (PDP) in the boat. I systematically tested the PDP and AC receptacles and what I discovered seems amazing and very troubling. I am guessing to those who are familiar with boat wiring you will understand what is happening.

The test:

1. Started with boathouse side receptacle power switch on and shore power cable connected up to boat, the rotary switch and all load switches on PDP off including 30 amp main.
-Only the green power available pilot light at rotary switch is illuminated.

2. Turned the rotary switch to shore power.
-The AC voltmeter shows 120 volts and shore power light is illuminated. No other pilot lights are illuminated. The reverse polarity indicator light is not illuminated.

3. Turned on 30 amp AC main breaker.
-The green AC main is illuminated. The reverse polarity light is not illuminated.

4. Cycled each of the right side PDP panel load switches ( below DC volt meter) on and back off. The loads included, Air Conditioner, Stove, Battery Charger, Water Heater, Accessory, Accessory.
-The green pilot lights were illuminated on each switch when in the on position. The reverse polarity light is not illuminated.

5. Cycled each of the left side PDP panel load switches (below selector switch) on and back off. The loads included, Microwave, Stbd Outlets, Port Outlets, Accessory.
- The green pilot lights did not illuminate on any switch in any position. The reverse polarity light is not illuminated.

6. Turned on only the Stbd and Port Outlet switches.
- Their green pilot lights did not illuminate. The reverse polarity is not illuminated.

7. Inspected the Stbd and port GFI.
- The pilot indicator light on both GFI's show green and ok.

8. Used plug in receptacle tester to check each.
- Tester indicated wiring correct.

9. Used voltmeter to test each receptacle.
- 120 volts indicated.

Now this is where things get really weird....not to be confused with wired...

10. Shut off 30 amp main AC breaker leaving the two outlet load switches in the on position. The rotary switch remains in the shore power position. No other switches are on. Inspected the GFI receptacles.
- The red fault light is illuminated on both GFI's. The reveres polarity light is not illuminated on the PDP panel.

11. Used the plug in receptacle tester to check each.
- Tester indicates reverse polarity at the GFI receptacle. Hot and ground reversed.

12. Tested the receptacles with voltmeter.
- 24 volts is indicated.

At this point I am thinking wow this can't be.

Then I begin to see other weird electrical things going on as well but just too much to deal with. I shut it all down and walked away.

 

[iggy]

I don't know the boat. But have the batteries off, just in case. If your not good at this, don't do it!! Check, hot, neutral and ground on the boat side of the shore cord. Then open the A.C. panel so you can get at the back of the AC main breaker. Again, check between hot, neutral and ground and the same on the breaker to the outlets. You should be reading reading 120v between Hot & Neu. and hot and ground with nothing on Neu & ground. If not there is a problem and by opening the AC panel you may see the problem, something missed wired, a wire fell off, loose, or a wire hitting something that it should not.

If you still have the problem, pull out each outlet on that breaker and check voltage and connections.

 

[BB marine]

Do you have an inverter? The inverter is only wired to the side of the panel that you are experiencing issues. The inverter if correctly wired and functioning properly should open the neutral- ground connection from the inverter when shore power is connected or when the rotary switch is placed on shore power.. All power sources have neutral ground connected. Shore power pedestal, generator , and inverter. They must be isolated when a different source is being used. If you have an inverter look in that direction. Check the wiring at the rotary switch. It is very important that each power source is isolated from the other. Shorepower, inverter, generator when in use. If not it can present a dangerous situation.

 

[iggy]

Do you have an inverter? The inverter is only wired to the side of the panel that you are experiencing issues. The inverter if correctly wired and functioning properly should open the neutral- ground connection from the inverter when shore power is connected or when the rotary switch is placed on shore power.. All power sources have neutral ground connected. Shore power pedestal, generator , and inverter. They must be isolated when a different source is being used. If you have an inverter look in that direction. Check the wiring at the rotary switch. It is very important that each power source is isolated from the other. Shorepower, inverter, generator when in use. If not it can present a dangerous situation.

On that note, are just the hot sides of each power source isolated? Or both hot and neutral, yes?

 

[Century Bay]

Again, thanks to all for your input. I will be doing some more checking as suggested. The big question for me is how there can be live power downstream of the AC Main breaker when it is closed and off?
Regarding inverter, yes the boat is fitted with an inverter but I have never turned it on to use it. As I understand from your post the inverter feeds the left side of the AC panel and is suspect in some way.
However, the testing and the problems I described in my post were done with the inverter off and the rotary switch only and always in the shore power position.
Can shore power back feed the inverter in some way taking a voltage drop across some resistance along the way and end up at the receptacles at 24 volts? It would also need to bypass the AC Main breaker. I would assume the AC main breaker is designed to shut off power to all the downstream loads or is it?

 

[Red Raven]

Based on everything you have described I’m guessing a bad rotary switch or a high impedance short between the switch connections. The fact that the problems seem to be isolated the the one side of the panel (that are supplied via the inverter on some boats but not all) indicates some voltage is bypassing the rotary switch (and AC mains breaker?) and getting to the left side panel. I think you need to check the wires at the back of that switch and the wires to the left side panel.

Be careful!

Curt

 

[BB marine]

Along with the rotary switch wiring and switch condition. A full inspection of the panel wiring and connections. Inverter wiring? Is the built in transfer switch being used ? Does it have a built in transfer switch? This requires shore power connection to the inverter. If the transfer switch is not being used there is no 120V input to the inverter which should take it out of the equation.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resourc ... c/8358.jpg
Source (2) on my switch is inverter
You already confirmed there is no voltage when checking between neutral and ground ? Rotary switch on shore power boat plugged in but main breaker off there may be a small residual voltage reading. I read 1V +/- .5 on mine but with rotary switch off nothing.

I would talk to Cutwater customer service to get assistance. Because of the issues with the Covid19 it may be more difficult to get a technician on board. If you are capable of troubleshooting which so far you seem like you are. A schematic of the factory AC wiring and the schematic of the custom Blue Sea AC breaker panel made for Fluid Motion may help in troubleshooting.

It is something simple, a step by step troubleshooting approach will lead you to the issue. Good luck

 

[Irish Mist]

I am no electrician but I would disconnect the A/C wires coming from the inverter first to eliminate it from the equation.

 

[Century Bay]

You won't believe this.....

With shore power selected and on, port and stbd side receptacle breakers on and 30 amp main breaker off there is 24 volts between hot and neutral, 120 volts between hot and ground and 104 volts between neutral and ground. This test was with inverter off unplugged and dc battery supply shut off.
Repeated measurements with shore power off, and inverter on. Same results.

Now I have certified technician investigating the problem. He said I was lucky to be alive and in his 30 years of doing this type of work he has never seen anything like it. After a lot of trouble shooting he is still not certain of the problem.

I think of having my oil filled space heater with metal jacket in the head for winter freeze protection and so glad my wife or I did not touch it while touching the sink faucets.

Has anyone out there experienced hot neutral to ground and while main breaker remains off?

 

[Century Bay]

I forgot to mention;

1. The reverse polarity light does not come on at anytime.
2. The ELCI does not trip.

 

[BB marine]

It is a process of troubleshooting the wiring. I still believe it is a simple fix. Is the C28 new or used? How long have you noticed an issue? I assume it is a fairly new boat so a PDI (pre delivery inspection) sheet should have been filled out and sent to the factory confirming all systems functioned as designed. This is all part of the troubleshoot process. How and when did the issue start. Has anyone else done any electrical repairs or installs in the boat? Is the inverter a factory install? The positive component is the C28 has a simple 120V system and all the wiring is fairly easy to trace. The 120 V 360 panel can easily be removed for a full inspection of proper wire placement and continuity checks. Having a certified ABYC electrician involved is good. My guess is a neutral and hot possibly reversed down stream of the ELCI and the rotary switch. Possibly even at the rotary switch. Without looking at it it is just a speculation. I'm sure the technician will get it straightened out quickly once he digs into it. Good luck.

 

[Century Bay]

The boat was purchased new in fall of 2018 but has only 30 hours on it. Shortly following delivery and after first putting it into the water the batteries were found dead at the dock although connected to shore power and although battery charger appeared to be working. It took awhile for the dealer to determine the problem but eventually the charger was replaced and has worked well since.
I happened to find the AC wiring with hot ground and breakers not functioning a few weeks back at the beginning of the Wuhan virus outbreak.
I was at the boat checking the bilge etc. and with the engine cover raised I noticed the pilot light on my compartment heater which is plugged into my stbd side receptacle was on. I thought I had turned off the main 30 amp breaker earlier that day as I was familiarizing myself with the boat and checking how things operated.
I checked again and 30 amp main was off with the heater pilot light on and so I found the problem by chance and assume it has always been there. It doesn't show up with the 30 amp breaker remaining in the on position which probably has been the case since I have owned it.

 

[Century Bay]

As I learn more about the forum I have started posting in the Cutwater general technical forum to simplify.