Almost an R27 owner! Weird survey finding

[Toki]

Hey boys and girls, we're thiiiis close to being the happy owners of a 2016 R27. Today we had the boat and engine surveys done and the sea trial and haul out. All went great, just some nit picky little findings, with one exception. See below, that's the rudder hard to port and hard to starboard. See the problem?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CENZQPanJD5Ra5NogzAqJSFcKpYrnBq5

The steering is obviously way caddywonkers here, but it's weird. The piston appears full in and full out, there doesn't appear to be any damage or anything out of sorts, almost like it came out of the factory this way 3 years (and 350 hours) ago!

The seller/broker is going to have a mechanic make this right, whatever that entails, but I figured I'd run this by the Tugnuts brain trust. What do you all think is going on here?

 

[NorthernFocus]

Easily corrected. Just isn't set up right. Hard to believe someone lived with it like that. Sure it wasn't worked on at some point?

 

[stwendl]

You might want to look at the actual rudder position rather than the arm. Perhaps if the rudder is center the arm may not be which would explain the angular offset if I am seeing that right

 

[Toki]

Thanks for the input.

Rudder position is exactly in line with the tiller arm.

NorthernFocus, we didn't see any kind of adjustment or other mounting features for any of the steering components related to the cylinder and tiller. How would this be "corrected"?

 

[BB marine]

If the cylinder is properly sized there should be approx. 35 degree turn each way from center. There is no adjustment on my installed cylinder. I have a ultraflex helm and cylinder installed 2016 C26. I'm just guessing, either the cylinder mounting location is wrong or the wrong length cylinder was used. There are different length cylinders and different strokes. The difference is not that noticeable by looking at the cylinder. From the picture the stroke looks right the cylinder length is wrong. It is actually steering more then 35 degrees port and less starboard. A longer cylinder with the same stroke would make it right.( Ultraflex steering systems). Compare the length of available cylinders, take a measurement of the steering cylinder in the boat and compare. I think you will find a longer cylinder will fix your problem. the cylinder length 16.5",18",20" and 23" . Fluid Motion may have installed the wrong one. The added steerage will help when docking! Good Luck.

 

[Toki]

Thanks BBMarine. This is what I was thinking too. I'd be amazed if it came out of the factory this way though, considering this boat has been through several owners and surveys, and then it was ignorant me who said "Ya know, this boat seems to have trouble turning to starboard, maybe we should investigate". I'm not worried though, the broker and seller are going to bring it up to snuff, even if that means going back to the factory.

While we're on the subject of the survey, here's another one: The engine would get up to ~3850 RPM max. The engine surveyor (certified Volvo tech) thought it should get up to 4000. The bottom is is very clean, trim tabs were used appropriately to bring her on plane, boat wasn't overloaded, by all indications the engine is running perfectly. Any thoughts? Is 3850 max normal for the R27?

Thanks

 

[Red Raven]

Our 2014 R27 with the D3-200 used to get 4050 rpm WOT when new. Now we only get 3850 fully loaded with clean bottom etc. I suspect in our case it is mostly the added weight from the stuff we have added to the boat over the years. If you are not getting this WOT rpm lightly loaded it’s probably appropriate to have the prop pitch adjusted. A good prop shop should be able to do it without requiring a new prop.

Curt

 

[NorthernFocus]

...NorthernFocus, we didn't see any kind of adjustment or other mounting features for any of the steering components related to the cylinder and tiller. How would this be "corrected"?

There is an adjustment for minor tweaks. The piece on the end of the cylinder rod is threaded and can be adjusted in/out to make up an inch or so. That's why there is a lock nut on it. Looking at your photos it looks like it is already threaded all the way out or close to it.

As far as fixing it, well depends on if someone else is doing it/paying for it or if DIY. If the seller is footing the bill then the best way to fix it is to move the cylinder mounting point. It is a simple thing but not easy due to access.

Both simple and easy is to add a bit of threaded rod and a coupling to the cylinder rod.
- disconnect the cylinder rod from the rudder arm and center the rudder
- loosen the lock nut and screw the coupling piece on the rod in out to find the mid-point and re-tighten the lock nut
- stroke the steering cylinder full stop each direction and measure the distance at each extreme between center of hole in rudder arm to center of hole in the cylinder rod connector
- half the difference of the above measurements is how much the rod needs to be extended

 

[BB marine]

While we're on the subject of the survey, here's another one: The engine would get up to ~3850 RPM max. The engine surveyor (certified Volvo tech) thought it should get up to 4000. The bottom is is very clean, trim tabs were used appropriately to bring her on plane, boat wasn't overloaded, by all indications the engine is running perfectly. Any thoughts? Is 3850 max normal for the R27?

Thanks

I'm very particular about max rpm on my D3. It is a small displacement high HP Diesels. The D3 will turn 4150 rpm max, minimum is 3900 WOT rpm. Anything under 3900rpm Volvo does not recommend. You do not want to load this engine no matter what rpm you run at. I asked a Volvo Penta Marine engineer ( Familiar with Fluid Motion products) about max extended rpm Volvo recommends to maintain longevity of the D3 engine. The first question he asked is whats your WOT rpm. My answer 4050. He did an engine load calculation based on my D3 220 hp. He said the engine will perform well between 3400 to 3500 for extended periods of time. He then told me if your engine runs below 4000 WOT lower your rpm to reduce the load on the engine. In your case I would load the boat the way you want and plan to use it. Run it in the conditions that you will be normally running in. Check WOT if it is below 4000 rpm,( engine is running properly), have the prop tuned so that it will turn 4000 or slightly higher. The D3's are small light duty engines, you do not want to over load or lug them. They are great dependable engines but not big displacement work horses.

 

[allanrs74@gmail.com]

Toki,

Your rudder cylinder has a finite amount of travel. I'm not sure how the tiller arm is bolted to the rudder post, but if it is splined, you could try this.

1) Center the rudder.
2) Disconnect the tiller arm from the cylinder and rudder post.
3) Stroke the cylinder and measure it's total travel from fully extended to fully retracted.
4) Bolt the tiller handle onto the rudder post so that they are both aligned with the keel.
5) Stroke the cylinder 1/2 way and attach it to the tiller handle.

This should now give you equal travel of the tiller handle and rudder to both port and starboard. Is this enough to properly control the boat while docking, etc? If not, you may need a longer cylinder but that will require moving it's mounting point.

Regards,
Bob Allan
Annie M R-27C

 

[allanrs74@gmail.com]

Toki,

Let me try this again.

1) Center the rudder.
2) Disconnect the tiller arm from the cylinder and rudder post.
3) Stroke the cylinder and measure it's total travel from fully extended to fully retracted.
4) Stroke the cylinder 1/2 way and attach it to the tiller handle and rudder post. This should give you equal travel to port and starboard.

Regards,
Bob Allan
Annie M R 27C

 

[Toki]

Thanks Bob. I assume what you're saying is that the tiller arm is splined onto the rudder post, and it can be clocked as needed. So the idea would be to slide the tiller arm off the rudder post and re-clock it such that the center of the piston travel corresponds to a centered rudder. Do I have that right? If so, that brings up a couple questions:

1. Looked like some major disassembly may be required to slide that tiller arm up and off the rudder shaft due to interference with the transom, possible requiring out-of-water removal of the whole rudder assembly. Does this sound right?

2. I want this boat completely right before consummating the purchase. If clocking of the tiller to rudder shaft per your description is how these boats were configured in the factory, then I'm cool with that. But if not, I'm more comfortable with the seller making this boat right per factory spec. Would you agree with this?

Thanks

 

[BB marine]

Bobs has a good idea and something to look into. If it is splined or the tiller arm can be timed in a different position it could work but may limit full travel in Both directions. I can't say that it is not splined but most rudder post and tiller arms are keyed. I'm sure Fluid Motion could answer that question. They may also be able to give you the standard length and throw of the cylinder that was used on the R27. With that information you would know if retiming the tiller arm, changing the cylinder or moving the attachment point of the cylinder is the fix. It is amazing that no one realized the limited steering to the starboard.

 

[allanrs74@gmail.com]

Toki,
You have the idea of repositioning the tiller arm, rudder post and cylinder stroke correct. And if the tiller arm can't be removed easily from the rudder post, you would need to drop the rudder post down/out.

You are absolutely correct in having the current owner make this right before you proceed with the purchase even if it requires hauling the boat. Brian's thought about checking with Fluid Motion on the length of the cylinder stroke is spot on.

Good luck,
Bob Allan
Annie M R - 27C

 

[CaspersCruiser]

Yours is not the only boat with that problem. There’s an R27 here in Louisville that was bought new that sat on the trailer for months trying to get that issue resolved. There are likely others out there.