Anchor & Windlass Upgrade R25 - more chain?

[RT25_LouLou]

I've been reading threads on windlasses and anchor upgrades and not finding what I need.

The Lewmar Pro-Sport 55G Horizontal windlass on my 2021 Ranger 25 OB died again! It was dead when we bought the boat (it was replaced as a part of the survey) and one month ago it died 3 days into my Triangle Loop cruise. I want to replace it with a Lewmar Pro Series 1000H. It looks like I need to upgrade to 5/16 chain as a result of the larger windlass.

I want to upgrade to a Rocna 10
I want to upgrade to 125 feet of 5/16 chain - this will be an extra 75lbs
I want to downsize to 75 ft of rode. I could be convinced to use 100ft.

Questions:
Is the extra 75 lbs of chain a problem for the bow?
Is the extra anchor weight and chain weight problematic for the bow?
Do I use 75ft or 100ft of rode?
Do I use 8 plait or 3 strand rode?
Will extra chain and rode fit in chain locker?

Has anyone done this on a R25 OB?

Thanks,
ray

ps. the Triangle Loop was awesome!

 

[Cutwater28GG]

dont add more weight to the bow. more rope rode is ok

 

[RT25_LouLou]

Thanks @Cutwater28GG ! What if I use 75 feet of chain, adding an extra 25ft of chain at 25 lbs. Is that an acceptable amount to add?

I typically anchor in shallow water and would like to try to have chain only. Keeping the rode for much deeper anchorages.
thanks,
ray

 

[CaspersCruiser]

What are you trying to accomplish by using so much chain?

 

[RT25_LouLou]

Thanks @CaspersCruiser - great question. I'm under the impression more chain, more weight, makes for stronger hold while on anchor. If I'm over complicating things. Happy to hear that.

 

[Maggie Anne]

I've always heard that the two most imporant factors are scope and anchor (not chain) weight. Some chain at the end is good to prevent abrasion from the bottom as the boat swings. Having rope is good as it provides some stretch which acts a shock absorber. We prefer a combination of rope and chain with a heavier anchor.

 

[scross]

I've been reading threads on windlasses and anchor upgrades and not finding what I need.

The Lewmar Pro-Sport 55G Horizontal windlass on my 2021 Ranger 25 OB died again! It was dead when we bought the boat (it was replaced as a part of the survey) and one month ago it died 3 days into my Triangle Loop cruise. I want to replace it with a Lewmar Pro Series 1000H. It looks like I need to upgrade to 5/16 chain as a result of the larger windlass.

I want to upgrade to a Rocna 10
I want to upgrade to 125 feet of 5/16 chain - this will be an extra 75lbs
I want to downsize to 75 ft of rode. I could be convinced to use 100ft.

Questions:
Is the extra 75 lbs of chain a problem for the bow?
Is the extra anchor weight and chain weight problematic for the bow?
Do I use 75ft or 100ft of rode?
Do I use 8 plait or 3 strand rode?
Will extra chain and rode fit in chain locker?

Has anyone done this on a R25 OB?

Thanks,
ray

ps. the Triangle Loop was awesome!

We don’t have an R-25 O/B. But we have had a R-25 Classic and a C-28 currently.
Both used the Lewmar 1000 series windlass. Never had any issues with the windlasses except the typical annual maintenance. And the Lewmar on the R-25 Classic was 13 years old when we sold the boat.
We’ve anchored out well over 100 nights in the PNW from the Olympia area to the Broughtons. Both boats were immediately upgraded to the Rocna 10 after purchase. Both boats had/have between 50 and 60 ft of 5/16” G4 chain with 200 to 240 ft of rope.
Have used both 3 strand and 8 plait rope. Like 8 plait better because it lays down better in the anchor locker. But the 8 plait does sometimes slip a bit more in the gypsy compared to 3 strand.
If you are anchoring in 20-40 ft of water (at highest tide) you should be just fine with a Rocna 10 and 60 ft of chain on the bottom with a good scope in up to 40 knot conditions. We’ve stayed pat in 40-50 knot winds anchored in loose gravel. Granted I didn’t sleep much that night.
As to extra weight at the bow, I consider all FM boats to be stern heavy and try to move as much weight forward as I can.

PS: when upgrading to the Lewmar 1000, make sure your wiring supports the MUCH higher current draw the bigger windlass requires.

 

[Chimo]

I've always heard that the two most imporant factors are scope and anchor (not chain) weight. Some chain at the end is good to prevent abrasion from the bottom as the boat swings. Having rope is good as it provides some stretch which acts a shock absorber. We prefer a combination of rope and chain with a heavier anchor.

Excellent advice! There are as many tests done on anchors and rode testing as there are anchor manufacturers and boating magazines on the market, for understandable reasons. For a good resource about scientific testing of both take a look at https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/ . In the end, you will have a compromise, just like every boat is a compromise. Some factors do come across as common. It’s worth doing the research and thinking about your own circumstances. For our R25SC I settled on the Rocha 10 for set and holding, 50ft chain for abrasion resistance and 150ft of nylon twist for strength and shock absorption. Each to his/her own.

One point I did note from lots of ‘review’ material is that some “experts” measure scope as multiples of water depth. One I recall talked about 25ft of rode on 5ft of water giving a 5:1 scope. the tip of the bow roller to water line on our boat is close to 4ft so I would really need 45ft of rode for that scope.

 

[Red Raven]

All good responses above.

One other thing to note is that beside protecting from abrasion some chain is helpful to give the rode some catenary (curved) shape from the weight of the chain. This has the same effect as increasing the scope when starting the set of the anchor. Of course, adding too much power in reverse during the set will remove the catenary shape but it does help get the anchor set started if minimal power is used to get started. It also helps for the same reason (catenary) in light and moderate winds. At some point in heavy winds (or with too much reverse thrust) the catenary is gone and it is all up to scope and anchor weight and design at that point. In short, adding chain helps, but at some point other factors become problematic, most notably, weight, the lack of stretch, and chain noise.

Personally, I prefer 50 to 80 feet of chain (80ft can help get set in deeper Anchorage’s in Alaska) and I always put all the chain out at a minimum (no matter the depth) and then tie off with the nylon. Easy set, no messing with a bridle, good stretch, and sound sleep!

 

[RT25_LouLou]

We don’t have an R-25 O/B. But we have had a R-25 Classic and a C-28 currently.
Both used the Lewmar 1000 series windlass. Never had any issues with the windlasses except the typical annual maintenance. And the Lewmar on the R-25 Classic was 13 years old when we sold the boat.
We’ve anchored out well over 100 nights in the PNW from the Olympia area to the Broughtons. Both boats were immediately upgraded to the Rocna 10 after purchase. Both boats had/have between 50 and 60 ft of 5/16” G4 chain with 200 to 240 ft of rope.
Have used both 3 strand and 8 plait rope. Like 8 plait better because it lays down better in the anchor locker. But the 8 plait does sometimes slip a bit more in the gypsy compared to 3 strand.
If you are anchoring in 20-40 ft of water (at highest tide) you should be just fine with a Rocna 10 and 60 ft of chain on the bottom with a good scope in up to 40 knot conditions. We’ve stayed pat in 40-50 knot winds anchored in loose gravel. Granted I didn’t sleep much that night.
As to extra weight at the bow, I consider all FM boats to be stern heavy and try to move as much weight forward as I can.

PS: when upgrading to the Lewmar 1000, make sure your wiring supports the MUCH higher current draw the bigger windlass requires.

This is very helpful. Especially the part of the wiring to support the larger windlass.

 

[RT25_LouLou]

Excellent advice! There are as many tests done on anchors and rode testing as there are anchor manufacturers and boating magazines on the market, for understandable reasons. For a good resource about scientific testing of both take a look at https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/ . In the end, you will have a compromise, just like every boat is a compromise. Some factors do come across as common. It’s worth doing the research and thinking about your own circumstances. For our R25SC I settled on the Rocha 10 for set and holding, 50ft chain for abrasion resistance and 150ft of nylon twist for strength and shock absorption. Each to his/her own.

One point I did note from lots of ‘review’ material is that some “experts” measure scope as multiples of water depth. One I recall talked about 25ft of rode on 5ft of water giving a 5:1 scope. the tip of the bow roller to water line on our boat is close to 4ft so I would really need 45ft of rode for that scope.

Thanks for the Peter Smith link - super helpful.

 

[NorthernFocus]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned above about the potential benefit of more chain is avoiding having to run the chain/rope splice through the windlass when anchoring in shallow water. 90 percent of the time it's not an issue but if you're hauling back under load(e.g. in a gale) is exactly when it is most likely to slip. That is what prompted me to switch. I run 125ft of 1/4in chain and a couple hundred feet of rope. Going to the smaller chain avoided increasing the weight up forward. It does require replacing the gypsy on the windlass which is about $100 additional cost.

Another thing I didn't see mentioned above is one of the downsides of anchoring with all chain. Unless you rig a nylon bridle when you anchor the chain can be noisy on gravel/rocky bottoms. If there is enough wind for the boat to sail back and forth on the hook the chain makes a bunch of noise as it drags on the bottom. The sound transmits through the anchor roller to the hull and makes sleeping in the vee birth a challenge.

 

[William Sanborn]

Our RT 27 SC had 60ft of 5/16 chain and 200 Ft plus of 5/8 rope. We typically anchor in 40 ft or less, so I added 75 Ft of chain for total of 135, and cut the rope back to 90 Ft. Giving us 225 ft total. Not worried about the weight of the chain, and like the weight on the bottom for good holding with about 75 ft of chain, more if were going to sleep on it.

 

[William Sanborn]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned above about the potential benefit of more chain is avoiding having to run the chain/rope splice through the windlass when anchoring in shallow water. 90 percent of the time it's not an issue but if you're hauling back under load(e.g. in a gale) is exactly when it is most likely to slip. That is what prompted me to switch. I run 125ft of 1/4in chain and a couple hundred feet of rope. Going to the smaller chain avoided increasing the weight up forward. It does require replacing the gypsy on the windlass which is about $100 additional cost.

Another thing I didn't see mentioned above is one of the downsides of anchoring with all chain. Unless you rig a nylon bridle when you anchor the chain can be noisy on gravel/rocky bottoms. If there is enough wind for the boat to sail back and forth on the hook the chain makes a bunch of noise as it drags on the bottom. The sound transmits through the anchor roller to the hull and makes sleeping in the vee birth a challenge.

I added a line guide on the gunnel starboard side of the anchor holder, and have a 5/16 3 strand single line with a 5/16 grab hook and attached to the Center Cleat that I can hook on to the Anchor Chain and ease the windless, and the line takes the load. Store the line and hook in the Anchor locker when at the Dock, and take out when I unclip the anchor safety clip before dropping.

 

[RT25_LouLou]

Thanks @NorthernFocus and @William Sanborn! I did read that the Lewmar 1000 windlass could handle a 1/4 inch chain, and I do like the extra chain for holding and for to not run the splice through the gypsy. All good points. I have to figure out the wiring and start moving forward.

 

[CaspersCruiser]

Thanks @NorthernFocus and @William Sanborn! I did read that the Lewmar 1000 windlass could handle a 1/4 inch chain,…..

I suggest that you get a Lewmar Pro 700. It looks identical to and has the same footprint as a Pro 1000. It comes standard with a gypsy made for 1/4” chain and the smaller motor can almost certainly use your existing wiring and circuit breaker.

The Pro 1000 is universally advertised with a gypsy sized for 5/16” chain and has a motor that needs a 70 amp circuit breaker. However, it can be ordered with 1/4” gypsy, according to the Lewmar website.

 

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks @NorthernFocus and @William Sanborn! I did read that the Lewmar 1000 windlass could handle a 1/4 inch chain, and I do like the extra chain for holding and for to not run the splice through the gypsy. All good points. I have to figure out the wiring and start moving forward.

@CaspersCruiser brought up good points. The Pro700 is plenty of power and the same footprint. If it does indeed come with the 1/4 inch gypsy standard then that's one less cost/hassle to deal with. NOTE: not all chain is the same. You need to check the specs on the windlass and make sure that you get chain to match. Dimensions are slightly different for the various chain specs.

 

[Cutwater28GG]

more scope beats more chain everytime.

your boat is light.

a good rocna anchor with 50ft chain is plenty. put out > 5:1 scope and you won't drag

The better upgrade would be a water washdown at the bow!

 

[Red Raven]

Agreed! Love my anchor wash down mod! One of the best mods ever!

 

[NorthernFocus]

more scope beats more chain everytime.

If the switch to more/all chain is improved holding above is correct. For ultimate holding power in gale force winds scope and anchor type is what matters.

Several of the other advantages of chain have been pointed out in posts above. Here's a couple more.

One misconception often mentioned is the "shock absorber" effect due to nylon stretching. The additional weight of chain provides similar benefits. As chain is lifted off the bottom and as the catenary decreases it exerts more and more pull on the boat. This typically results in a snubber type effect in anything other than extreme conditions.

Another thing I don't recall seeing mentioned above is that chain is much more trouble free in the tiny anchor lockers that FM chose to put in these boats.

We spend 40-60 nights every summer sleeping on the hook. And on average move/anchor the boat two or three times a day. We've been effectively using all chain for over 10 years now and wouldn't go back. It is simply way easier to deal with.

Unless/until the windlass craps out....