Automatic aft bilge operation

B

baz

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Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
Subject: Automatic aft bilge operation

On my 2019 R29 CB I've become accustomed to hearing the aft bilge pump activate every few minutes. While on the boat today I did not hear it being active. I therefore opened the engine hatch to look down at the aft bilge pump and saw water well over the top of the pump. I immediate activated this pump manually via the console breaker switch to have the water pumped out. After this more water flowed in the aft bilge area from forward sections and filled the aft bilge up again. The pump did not activate so I manually activated it again via the console breaker switch.

Do I have a problem with the auto pump activation that normally happens every few minutes ?

Thanks... 🙂
 
baz":2flnfgs5 said:
Subject: Automatic aft bilge operation

On my 2019 R29 CB I've become accustomed to hearing the aft bilge pump activate every few minutes. While on the boat today I did not hear it being active. I therefore opened the engine hatch to look down at the aft bilge pump and saw water well over the top of the pump. I immediate activated this pump manually via the console breaker switch to have the water pumped out. After this more water flowed in the aft bilge area from forward sections and filled the aft bilge up again. The pump did not activate so I manually activated it again via the console breaker switch.

Do I have a problem with the auto pump activation that normally happens every few minutes ?

Thanks... 🙂
Click to expand...

Barry,

The bilge pump cycles every 2.5mins regardless if there is water in the bilge or not. So if the bilge is empty and the pump cycles with no water it will shut off, if water fills the bilge it wont turn on till another 2.5mins later. Now if the bilge is not cycling but working with the switch at the dash I would check the float fuse which is located on the 24/7 fuse block in the 1/4 berth. Let me know if you have questions and feel free to email me direct.

Thanks,
Kevin Lamont
 
I was informed by RT that there are 7.5 amp fuses accessible behind the drop down panel in the mid berth area (the cave) for these two aft and fwd bilge pumps along where the thruster fuses are. If these 7.5 amp fuses are required for the auto activation of the two pumps. If one or both are blown then this would explain wh=y the auto pump activation is failing. So I will check on these fuses when I next visit my boat. Question is: if they are blown, does this indicate a short of some sort in the electrical system ?
 
Barry, I can not answer your short question however if the bilge pump has a sensor and it becomes dirty from normal bilge water it then can create a problem. The problem being because the sensor is dirty with grease, grime etc it will not send a signal to the bilge pump to activate therefore letting water accumulate in the bilge. In this example the dash on switch will still turn the pump on. If your fuse is ok I’d suggest cleaning the sensor face surface. Keep us posted.

Jim
 
Jim & Kevin: I checked the two 7.5 amp fuses and they looked AOK to me. Are they slow burn fuses such that they open and subsequently close after a while ?

I will check the aft bilge for grease/crud/debris etc.... Thanks Jim. 🙂
 
Baz, my initial question is, why after you pumped the bilge dry did so much water come forward and fill your bilge again? Where is all that water coming from?
 
The initial amount of water was all around in the aft bilge and some was situated fwd of this aft bilge and under the engine. When I manually activated the aft bilge it pumped out the water quickly and before the remaining water from under the engine had a chance to refill the aft bilge area. I could hear the remaining water trickling back into the aft bilge after this 1st pump out, so waited a bit for the trickling noise to stop and then manually activated the aft bilge a 2nd time, and this was sufficient to expel all the water.

BTW.... It's not possible for the aft bilge pump to completely expel all the water. There's always some left below the pickup point, plus there's some residual water that flows back out of the hose when the pump stops, although this is minimized by the 1-way valve in the hose some 15" up from the pump.
 
Follow up....

1) My stuffing box (packing gland) drips about 1 drip per minute with the boat stationary with engine off.
2) Given the bilge pump was not operating as it should every 2.5 minutes for checking water, the water level built up.
3) Thus, the amount of water in the aft bilge was as a result of 2).
4) My two 7.5 amp fuses for both bilge pumps are good.
5) The issue has to be that the aft bilge pump’s sensor is dirty and I will check/clean it up.
6) After doing 5) I will be hoping the issue is resolved…. will check again in a weeks time.

The one thing that puzzles me with 5) is that even with the pump sensor being presumably dirty it should still be activated every 2.5 minutes regardless. The sensor, as I understand it, simply is used to activate the pump if the water level is too high and this is independent of the 2.5 minute cycle time. Affectively, this periodic 2.5 minute pump activation should deal with the pump's sensor being dirty, and pump out water as needed. Am I correct in thinking/assuming this ?
 
trailertrawlerkismet":1fnn4tmm said:
Barry, I can not answer your short question however if the bilge pump has a sensor and it becomes dirty from normal bilge water it then can create a problem. The problem being because the sensor is dirty with grease, grime etc it will not send a signal to the bilge pump to activate therefore letting water accumulate in the bilge. In this example the dash on switch will still turn the pump on. If your fuse is ok I’d suggest cleaning the sensor face surface. Keep us posted.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim: The bilge pumps on my 2019 R29CB are different from yours. My pumps do not have a water sensor. They are supposed to spin up every 2.5 minutes and if they sense resistance (i.e., the sensed resistance means water is present) they continue spinning to pump out the water until they sense no more resistance. The two pumps (aft and fwd ones) are independent as well as their 2.5 minute cycle times.

I was told by RT that pulling the 7.5 amp fuse and waiting a second or two and then re-inserting the fuse should cause the pump to spin up as it does every 2.5 mins. I will test this, and if the pump does not spin up I will ask RT to replace the pump.

No matter, thanks for your posting. 🙂

[EDIT]
I tested pulling the bilge pump fuses and re-inserting them after a few seconds and ONLY the fwd pump activated momentarily when re-inserting its fuse. The aft bilge pump did not activate. Thus the aft pump is faulty in some way and RT will be replacing it this coming Thursday. 😀 It doesn't surprise me the aft pump has failed as it's subject to the stuffing box drips and its location and its environment is vastly worse than for the fwd pump that is always 'high & dry'. I suspect after the boat's warranty period expires this pump replacement will have to be done periodically at my cost. 😱
 
The aft bilge pump was replaced today under warranty ... it took RT about 45 minutes to complete the replacement work.

Shared photo album here -> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1AG1qNHBGRBfry

All is now working as it should.

I give thanks to RT for such a rapid response and help for this issue. 😀
 
Hi Baz,
We have experienced issues with the aft bilge pump also. Our R-29S is now three years old. In our case we have had the pump come on and not shut off until we manually shut if off. At first it was thought the problem was manufacturing debris and we repeatedly flushed the bilge finally getting all debris out. However, the problem reoccurred. In Volvos infinite wisdom in 2016 they painted the hoses. As the hoses expand and contract the paint chips off and fouls the bilge pump float. The solution has been to flush the bilge periodically and using a shop vac. clean the bilge. Fortunately each time the pump has remained on we were on the boat.
 
Given this issue I will ensure I have a spare bilge pump on hand. So long at the manual operation can be maintained I'm not too worried about the pump not activating every 2.5 mins to detect water. It just means I need to check for this 2.5 min auto feature periodically.

The real issue would be if the pump ran continuously or its manual operation failed.

I've been told it's also a good practice to run the aft bilge pump manually when the boat's bow is riding high as this will cause bilge water to run toward the aft bilge pump and get pumped out.

I always check the bilge pump's manual operation before leaving my dock. When I check my stuffing box drip rate each month I will also verify the two bilge pumps activate automatically every 2.5 mins and if not then check their fuses, and if fuses are AOK then schedule for replacing the faulty pump. Changing a pump requires snipping the pump's connecting electrical wires, and unsnapping it from the blue cage that is screwed/secured to the hull. This leaves the blue cage intact and for the new pump assembly to be placed back into the blue cage ensuring the two vertical blue fingers are inside the main pumps enclosure. It's easy to get one finger inside and inadvertently have the other blue finger left on the outside and therefore not engaging the main pump's assembly securely. Once the new pump is in place the wires need to be reconnected and secured with heat shrinking covers; making sure the +ive and -ive wires are properly aligned/connected, and finally enclosed within the springy flexible black plastic conduit. I picked up all this procedure watching RT perform the pump replacement.... also, you need long arms, and two hands are required to work on the pump's release/replacement at times. Lay a cushion on the engine's beauty plate to protect your chest from being bruised would also be good. 😱
 
I hate the Johnson Controls float switches. have caused me nothing but trouble on 2 different RT's...... wish they would switch to Ultra's...
 
Yes.... RT has over time switched from one brand to another as they get experience with them and their idiosyncrasies. None seem to be perfect and suspect they change brands when they experience too many failures as reported by their customers.

The Ultra pumps are quite expensive.... does this mean quality and reliability I wonder ?

Found on Amazon here -> https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Safety...743RS009BY5&psc=1&refRID=WT7ZZS4MG743RS009BY5 and this is just for the switch; adding a pump is another $80 to $100. 😱 Maybe cheaper else where... :roll:

If they are 'good', then given the importance of the bilge pumps, their expense can be accepted and reasonable.
 
[/quote]It doesn't surprise me the aft pump has failed as it's subject to the stuffing box drips and its location and its environment is vastly worse than for the fwd pump that is always 'high & dry'. I suspect after the boat's warranty period expires this pump replacement will have to be done periodically at my cost. 😱[/quote]


It’s the same on the 31’s. I discovered the failure when I washed the tug. I figured I hosed down the deck with enough water that it should have activated automatically. When it didn’t, I manually flipped the switch. Nothing, including no noise. I tried the other pump, noise but no water. Time to look.

I then saw the aft pump well was pretty gross, probably a combo of rain water, biological material and a prior oil leak from the steering ram. The aft pump was fully submerged in water, the forward one was dry. Testing confirmed the aft pump had failed and the forward one worked fine. I replaced the aft pump, submitted the bill in and was reimbursed since the boat was under warranty.

When I had the failed pump in my hand, I tried to spin the impeller. Locked solid. The new one spun free. Since it’s in southern FL, it wasn’t freeze damage and since it’s on a lift, it wasn’t a steady leak that made it run until it burned out. My guess is the seal failed (maybe due to the prior mentioned oil leak) and the assembly corroded internally. Still, the gunky location has me concerned about longevity. I’ll be carrying a spare going forward.
 
Baz, thank you and your correspondents for a very valuable thread.

I have just discovered that my aft bilge pump on my 2019 RT29 has stopped activating every 2.5 minutes and that it cannot be activated by turning on the dash switch. I haven’t checked the fuses yet but I won’t be using the boat until I get the pump issue sorted out.

Question: what did the Ranger Tug service guy say was wrong with your pump? After a turbo charger oil leak from my D300 was fixed, the bilge has been clean but I do have the widely noted problem of the stuffing box dripping every minute or so right down onto the bilge pump wiring harness. Was it something internal to the pump, corroded wiring, or something else all together. And finally, I recall reading a posting about trying to protect the pump from stuffing box drips but can’t locate it now. Anyone else remember this thread?
 
If the pump is installed properly water dripping on it will not cause harm to it. The key to the installation is to make sure all wire connections remain out of the water. Inspect the wire connections to confirm that the shrink material is completely sealing all the way around the connector and a good seal to the wires is formed. Preventing water intrusion in the connection is essential to maintaining a good connection. The best way to install wire connections in bilge area's is to use shrinkable wire connectors along with additional wire shrink tube. I slide a shrink tube on a wire to be connected first then make the wire splice using shrinkable butt connector. Once connection is made apply heat to shrink and seal the connection. I then apply a small amount of liquid neoprene electrical sealant, slide the shrink tube over the connector and now shrink it until it seals tightly to the wire. The next important step is anchor the wires so that the connection is high enough so it will not lay in water.

No matter what type of bilge pump is used an visual inspection should be done periodically to confirm the area around the pump is debris free, self text the float switch as per manufactures description. Manually run pump for a few moments, clean and degrease if necessary, inspect all wires for insulation flaws, and connections.

If all is properly maintained and your packing gland is properly adjusted average 3 drips per minute your pump should not be affected. It is designed to be in water.

Most issues with bilge pumps are electrical connections, faulty manufactured motors or float switch failures. There can be operator error also leaving the pump on manually and running it dry will cause it to fail. The pumps are not designed to be run continuously without pumping water.
 
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