Boat winches And single handed launching

Hello All,

New boat, new EZ Loader trailer with bunks, same issues identified in this posting. Boat lives on the trailer, no bottom paint, so my launch encounters are always round trip. I frequently launch/retrieve solo, but a situation I have always faced and am comfortable with. Having my First Mate along as a dockhand makes the ramp much easier though!

Previous boat trailers have been rollers, and I really like bunks! Bunks do have their issues, however. I have always used the break tap (or stomp aka "Ranger bump") with rollers once secured and up off the ramp on level ground. It worked great! Launching was always a breeze as long as you could hold you boat to bow roller long enough to unclip the winch strap. Securing forward dock line was a way of life.

In an effort to reduce the bow roller offset, I once winched the boat as tight as I could to roller, pulled forward in truck, and noticed I was wrenching my winch stand on trailer. I backed into water, loosened strap about 3-4", pulled out and there was the typical gap described in this posting.

I do the Ranger bump if I have a convenient parking area slope to work with... flat ground has never produced the desired results. Having fully wetted bunk carpet, I find, is mission essential. I have heard mixed opinions on slicks/slides relative to fiberglass finish. I am not aware of "liquid rollers", unless it is some form of silicone spray onto carpet pads.

Another great feature I find with bunks is you can center boat on trailer, as long as you go up ramp very slowly. With rollers I would spend the time to make sure the trailer was level side to side... rollers were not self-centering or forgiving!

Thanks for all the valuable info everyone has provided!

Bob & Kim
The Doghouse 2
 
I have gone back on some pictures and videos from our time of sea trial and testing of the boat, and found some interesting footage related to this. This is all at the dealer's location with them doing the launching and retrieval:

1. The boat is on the trailer in the dealer's yard. The bow eye is above the roller. The strap goes over top of the roller, but the chain goes under the roller. The chain is now between the roller and the boat:


2. As the boat is being launched you can clearly see the bow eye is above the roller, the strap over top of the roller, and the chain is in the gap between the roller and the boat:


3.Retrieving the boat, the bow eye is now below the roller; so he hooks up the strap AND the chain UNDER the roller:


4. As the boat is pulled up the ramp, the bow eye is rising up past the roller. The strap and chain are now both getting looped under the roller as it rises and they are now both in between the boat and the roller.


5. Parked back in the yard, there is now a gap between the roller and the boat. The strap and chain are both looped under the roller to hook up to the bow eye above the roller. This leaves the strap and chain caught between the boat and the roller. No way to snug up now to remove the gap without crushing the chain hook into the roller. The first quick/downhill stop is going to mash the hooks into the roller, damaging the roller, and making it extremely difficult to disconnect at next launch. There is also too much upward tension on the roller from the strap looped underneath:


Now I understand why we got frustrated and broke things trying to figure out how to hook up.
 
Ron,

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words... your "situation" is well documented, but not necessarily resolved.

Now, at 70 y.o., I'm just a young buck and have a lot to learn. Trailering, launch and retrieval cannot be excluded from my "more to learn" list. However, it seems like the bow eye in my inherited used or two new from the factory configurations have been below the bow roller. When you think about it, IMO, holding the bow keel tight to the bow roller with the bow eye below the roller, strap underneath roller, will not allow boat to ride up and over winch stand. The emergency chain is there as an emergency backup, either boat going forward or backwards.

Trailers and winch stands are adjustable to the boat, I'm sure within reason. That's what I like about our EZ loader trailer... it was designed for our R27-OB by EZ Loader for Ranger Tugs. Having said that, my previous post points out the fact we don't live in a perfect world. Drats!

I'm sure this is a topic we all will commiserate on until we buy that R41, non-trailerable boat!

Bob
 
Well I think I got miswired from years of cinching things down tight and driving away although I stopped that when I went to big big boats years ago. This thread has really opened my eyes I must say.

Forgot to mention I not only power on I power off as well.

I immerse the trailer until the boat is floating, wife starts the motor, I release the strap and chain while staying dry, back in a bit more and stop which gives the wife a helping hand on backward movement.

One thing I’ve changed my mind on due to this thread is Liquid Rollers; I’ma give that a try because of a comment it makes the bump easy and I’m in favor of anything helping that. Also, no ones mentioned boats sliding backwards while going up the ramp so my main worry is apparently a non issue, good to know.

As for the eye to roller relationship I’ve always felt the eye should be below the roller with the the strap reaching down and through the arms that hold the roller and the safety chain making a loop below everything.

Also I believe the strap windings on the winch get tightened down to beat the band and that’s where the additional length comes from during retrieve, something that concerns me when I have to overcome that to actuate the winch release. I don’t want that handle turning into a blur and then everything turning blurry for me!

With some decent tension on the strap for over the road you won't get boat bouncing on the trailer but I do back that off once home.
 
At our local ramp we are fortunate to have a downhill slope right after we load and pull up and over the ramp. With wet bunks I immediately winch the gap tight. Still a bit of a crank but much easier working with gravity. We haven't had to do the 'bump' yet. I realize that not everyone has this option and we maybe won't when we 'finally' :roll: get to trailer to a foreign port. I'm wondering if maybe circling around a bit back toward the ramp to gain enough downward slope would also work.
 
I myself have used the tippy top of ramps for the downhill bump but I then back up out of there to avoid being sideways on any portion of the ramp at any time.

Now, of course the first sideways concern is the boat leaving the trailer and going tumbling down the ramp but that depends on the steepness of the ramp and would be apparent to the eye. However the possibility of the downhill tires coming into contact with the fenders even on the gently sloped parts of ramps is what I worry about.

If you look at the clearance between tire and fender on most trailers likely it ain’t much and if you think of the weight and leverage the boat has that gap can be fairly easily closed. Keep in mind, you’re not hitting a bump while moving forward or back with all suspension components doing their weight bearing and shock absorbing job; here the weight and leverage has transferred onto the downhill the suspension and the uphill suspension still pushing up thank you very much! And because of the friction between rubber and steel you’re stuck, can’t move forward, can’t move back you’re going to have to remove the fender or the tires are going to destroy it and you’re left with a trailer that’s not road worthy.

So I just back all the way down and with the lakes low in CA. it can be quite a drive! Temple Bar Marina, Las Vegas Boat Harbor, you name it, I’ve had staff show up in golf carts saying there’s a betting pool as to what the heck I’m doing. Dude in the cart and I agreed I’d claim to be practicing backing up and we split the proceeds! Only time in boating I've had a positive cash flow...
 
I have a different problem related to this discussion maybe you all could help with.

I put the trailer into the water as far as possible without letting the brake controller get wet. The front bunks are all the way under the water. This still limits how far the boat will float forward before hitting the bunks. I power the boat forward the last 3 or 4 feet to the roller. Due to the difference in angle of the trailer and the boat on the water (as shown on Dale’s diagram) the boat digs pretty hard into the front bunks and scrapes off the bottom paint in this area. It is also really hard on the bunk carpet.

I use liquid rollers which helps it slide but the pressure point is so severe that the friction is high enough to take off the bottom paint each time. I don’t think using other bunk material would help and may make it worse. The boat shape also changes rapidly near the contact point so the bunk cradle angle does not match the boat bottom until it is driven forward the 4 feet or so. This makes the contact point a sharp edge until the boat is all the way up.

My first thought is that the ramp is too steep. A more gradual ramp would reduce the ramp angle but the trailer would be shallower and thus the boat would hit the bunks further back resulting in more distance to power onto the trailer. I really don’t have another workable ramp option in the area anyway.

The other thought is to raise the brake controller and battery higher so that I can put the trailer even deeper. Much further though and the truck will be in the water. Also, if the boat floats all the way forward it may be hard to get it to center.

Of course a third option would be to just lift it out instead. More expensive and a much further drive (over land and water).

Anyone else have this issue? Solutions?

Curt
 
You said this ramp is too steep, do you think you meant too gradual because I’ve been on softly slanted ramps myself and was unable to get enough water over the trailer as it sounds like what’s going on here.

Boating in CA, AZ and NV leads you to very large lakes that have dried up and have multiple ramps which is nice but with our size vessels you need more water depth than say smaller, more typical boats and they usually tell you which ramp is the deepest of the available ramps as you pay at the gate. The sad fact is if anybody is going to have trouble at the ramp it’s us Big Boat People.

Keep in mind, “deep” meant slant, I usually measure ramps with a digital inclinometer and found there can be quite a few degrees of slant difference between ramps. Have to bite the ‘ol tongue as the Little Boat People effortlessly launch and retrieve alongside you while commenting “Won’t float huh?”

Anyway, for a learning curve I’ve dipped in at what I was told were the insufficient ramps to see the subtitles of insufficient water and I learned if it’s not up to and perhaps a bit over the bottom paint on the side most of the way up the length of the boat, she ain’t actually floating and launch and especially retrieval is going to be difficult and perhaps even damaging as you wrote.

The nightmare here is the boat dropping a bit as it leaves the bumpers and the keel contacting any transverse members of the trailer. There'd be some keel damage which wouldn't be a worry because of the way Rangers are built and my R25 held up just fine when I bounced her off a submerged ridge in mid Lake Shasta but that’s another story anyhoo I think the trailer would take the real hit and perhaps bend said transverse members rendering your trailer unroadworthy.



In my mind how far you’re willing to submerge the towing vehicle is the limiting factor on launch and retrieval and there’s a few things at work there and they're different for fresh and saltwater.

To start with, all differentials have a vent hole on top and while I don’t mind “dipping the differential” you never want to “submerge the differential” fresh or salt. Also keep in mind when your brake drums and shoes become wet that affects their holding ability on the ramp and their ability to do their part during the “bump” keeping in mind the trailer brakes are very very wet during “bump” time also.

I sometimes drive around launch areas manually actuating my trailer brakes to heat ‘em up a bit and drive some of the moisture off before getting out into big city traffic, better safe than sorry.

Now in salt water I won’t immerse above the tires because the last time I had my spring stacks redone the shop had to cut away the components that held them in place as they had rusted into one piece. I’ve always used salt a way on the trailer brake components and after this experience I also spray the truck brakes.

So that covers backing in the tow vehicle as deep as you dare and there’s also another direction to go.

In moving up to an R29 I purchased and transported my R25 on a trailer built for the coming R29. This placed the bow of the R25 six feet further than the four feet it had been from the rear of my truck and really really helped at ramps that had formerly been difficult. I think I’ve read here on the ‘Nuts of folks using hitch extensions on difficult ramps but I don’t recommend anything that reduces hitch capacity especially during such high load, critical maneuvers.

All I’ve currently done with the new to me R29 is retrieve it at purchase so I’m looking forward to returning to the dried up lakes and seeing the challenges of launch and retrieval of an R29 on a R29 trailer.

I’m thinking there’s 5 more feet of length, 2 more feet of width which is good and 5,000 pounds more weight which is not in my favor and don’t know what to think of all that, time will tell.
 
It’s definitely a lot steeper than the ramp I used to use. I haven’t measured it but I suspect it is near 15%. 12% is normal. The back of the trailer is way down there (maybe 4 or five feet). The old ramp closer to my house is only about 8% (old Seaplane base). It is unusable. I could actually get it on easier than off though. Couldn’t get the boat off without sinking the truck. On this ramp the boat pretty much floats right off with a touch of the brakes. It is the retrieval that is harder. The boat floats nearly all the way up the roller short about 3.5 feet. The trailer is combing out of the water at such an angle that driving up that last 3.5 feet causes the bow to dig into the edges of the bunks.

The thing limiting me from going back further is the brake controller which on my boat is mounted behind the winch stand and not in front. There is no room for it in front because I have a shortened trailer in order to fit in my garage. I am thinking of adding a bracket to raise the brake control,er and battery up 6 inch or so so I can float her more forward.

Does yours float all the way forward to the bow roller or do you have to drive it up the last bit. If so, how far?

Curt
 
Yep, opened my eyes and wholeheartedly agree as to how a steeper ramp could be less useable, I’ve also heard 12% is the max they like to build to. You know, there’s never one solution to anything in boating.

I think you’re right on the money as to the problem being the sort trailer, have buddies with little boats in the same boat so to speak.

Measure the distance you’ll be moving that brake controller and if that distance exists currently behind your rear tires whilst on the ramp that’s the amount you will be able to gain in backing and it’s a worthwhile thing to pursue. The boat trailer angle upon contact will still be the same but the boat will be lifted by the front of the bumpers less, floating more of its own weight a bit longer? I think that will help.

As for the drive it on quiry, I’ve used the same boat (R25) on two different styles of trailers, dual axle single set of bunks and three axle twin set of bunks and here’s what I experienced keeping in mind it’s the wife dong the driving and me doing the arm waving and yelling.

First the completely floating while attached at the winch was not helpful as the darn thing always moved side to side so my technique has alway been letting the bunkers guide/grasp the hull a bit and powering on from there.

With the single bunker set trailer after many years and cycles it seemed to get a bit standard; immerse the trailer until there was some water over the front of the bumpers, drive on until the boat stopped, eyeball with regard to how much farther forward vessel needed to go keeping in mind how much it would elevate during that. The elevate part seemed to be the hinge point of the struggle and you’ve spoken to that.

With the two bunker set trailer the front set of bunkers seem to gently yet firmly grasp, guide and lift the bow during a not rubbing very hard power on, this still with the R25.

With the only recovery I’ve done so far with the R29 I had to space the front bumpers apart as I had narrowed them for the R25 usage. I actually spaced them completely out of the way, recovered the R29 and spaced them back closer for the trip home.

So you might say that was a single set of bumpers recovery and I found the bow had gotten into the front low trailer mounted roller and destroyed it with, of course, no damage to the sturdy sturdy Tug.

So when folks say how can you hurt a trailer I say let me show you the ways! Propellers are made out of easybendum and trailers are made out of popsicle sticks and I treat each as gently as possible because I’m the one that fixes.

One challenge we’re still struggling with is the movement of the stern upon applying power, it takes the wife about a half a turn on the wheel to overcome but she does it better than the instructions I spout off.

Man, there’s forces and geometry at work here I can’t quite get a grasp on and I tell ya they seem to change with every recovery, ramp and tide cycle!
 
tugnnaweigh":7oabesys said:
Man, there’s forces and geometry at work here I can’t quite get a grasp on and I tell ya they seem to change with every recovery, ramp and tide cycle!
Click to expand...
You are sure right about that! We are still on the steep end of the learning curve and come away with something new every time.
We have the double bunk trailer for our R25sc. We typically back it in till the fenders are under water, and the water level is up to the cross member behind the mast, right about where the keel curves up to the bow. My wife backs the trailer in while I stay on the boat and power onto the trailer. I usually have to apply a bit of extra power to get up to the roller. If it takes too much power I wave the wife back a bit deeper.
With our last retrieval, we could not seem to get the boat centered and when we started pulling out it would settle with a list. We finally decided to dock the boat and pull the trailer out for a look. Turns out one of the forward bunks had flipped over on its mounting brackets. They are made to swivel to conform to the hull, and we must have bumped it while powering on, or someone flipped it while it was parked. On my to-do list now I will crawl under the boat and tighten up the bunk mount bolts so they no longer swivel. Another lesson learned!
Lots of good ideas and info being traded here.
 
My God Man, your wife can back a trailer? I am not worthy! I am not worthy! Must have something to do with the sunlight in the Yukon?

We also retrieve in a like fashion, only a certain amount of power and if forward motion is needed I back in a bit more. I’m comfortable maintaining power as I pull forward to attach the winch/chain combo while trying to avoid the slimy slippery fall on your fanny area present on most ramps but that’s hit and miss. It is reassuring how far back the engine raw water pickup is so never a worry there. Before pulling up the ramp I do make the wife remove the key from the ignition and wave it at me she waves other things too.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this, certain amount of power and deeper and deeper until the boat’s on the trailer where you want. Then pull forward while maintaining power to prevent slip back and make your hookups without having to go wading.

My R25 was a loaded boat (A/C and Gen) so it listed all the time (although the double bunk set trailer cured this) and typically ended up on the single bunk trailer still listing. To fight this I sometimes put Fatboy (me) on the side of the vessel as it moved forward and came into contact with the bumpers but FB got tired of having to do this. Gotta pick your battles in boating.

Going back and forth from R29 setup to R25 setup and back to R29, I had to adjust my bunkers for width and Archimedes himself couldn't change their angle but it wasn’t much and the R29 took good care of that issue when it landed on them so all is good there.

I’ve had people deflate tires, steal the license plate, mess with the brakes, wee wee on bunkers might of been a very large dog so I examine the trailer when I leave, when I get back, when I’m traveling, when I think of it, when I’m bored. Of all the boating mechanism I spend the most time glaring at my trailer. Keep in mind it weighs 2,200 pounds and carries 10,000 pounds and while that’s all DOT legal it’s also scary.

I think your statement of “Something new every time” encapsulates the boating experience and the the types of folks that are drawn to boating at least initially. We seek adventure and challenges with fresh hope each morn at least initially.

Then as we proceed on our boating journey we learn to say: Christ what else can go wrong, that worked the last time I used it, how much?, wadda mean they don’t make parts for that anymore, only $1,800? Let's do that right away, how can something break when it hasn't been in use, how can I fix it when I can’t even see it, are those halyards going to be making that noise the entire time? I actually got asked that last one. Yep
 
tugnnaweigh":z9ztjlqn said:
My God Man, your wife can back a trailer? I am not worthy! I am not worthy! Must have something to do with the sunlight in the Yukon?
Click to expand...

I have a wife that says things like "let's go fishing", "we need a bigger boat", or "you better get 2 ATVs cause I'm not riding on the back of yours".
What more can I say? I am truly blessed. 😀 😀
 
YukonRon":1u7ijvvu said:
I have a wife that says things like "let's go fishing", "we need a bigger boat", or "you better get 2 ATVs cause I'm not riding on the back of yours".
What more can I say? I am truly blessed. 😀 😀
Click to expand...
Hmmm your wife sounds like mine. She bugs me to go fishing all the time. She insists on having her own fishing equipment and at this point she has more than I do. Last time we were out on the boat with friends she decided we "needed" a wider boat. She complains we don't take our sports cars out for rides often enough.
I think she is a keeper.
 
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