Carbon Monoxide detector

[ngleadow]

We have a 2010 R25, and recently the CO detector has been beeping at random times, even when we were not on the boat (our neighbours told us). Is there a replacement for the one we have that can be plugged into the 12 volt circuit the present one uses. I am assuming that our present detector is faulty.

Thanks
Norm

 

[NorthernFocus]

We simply replace ours with a battery powered unit. After looking at specs etc I didn't see anything "marinized" about the one that came on the boat. So we kept it simple. One less circuit to worry about.

 

[Captain Steve]

my CO detector beeps when the battery it draws power from gets low on a charge. I remove the front of it and unplug the power cable as it is a continuous draw.

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

The Carbon Monoxide detectors have a 5 year life. At the the time of there expiration they start to beep to let you know they have reached there lives end. If you take the unit from the wall there will be instructions on them that relate to this information. I found out the same way when the one on our R27 started beeping at about the boats 5 year anniversary.

Jim F

 

[BradOwens]

I replaced mine with an identical unit purchased at West Marine. By using the same type, I was able to simply plug the new front piece onto the existing mounting plate with no rewiring needed.

 

[Seaquel]

Bringing back this topic since we just hit the 5 year anniversary of our R27, and like clockwork (almost to the day) our carbon monoxide alarm began beeping. This was not an error, nor was it detecting the presence of CO; this is the normal “expiration” alarm of the built-in 5 year timer.

Doing a bit of research, I thought I’d share what I’ve learned about purchasing a replacement because I believe there is some confusion and mis-information about what units are suitable as replacement for your boat:
1. The identical unit is no longer available, either from Ranger Tug parts dept., or marine retailers. However, an updated model is available that now has a 7 year timer. It is available at West Marine for $99, or most other marine stores and online outlets. Ranger is out of stock this week, but you can also purchase the updated version from them.

2. Best price for a replacement that I found, for a marine application and hard-wired to the boat’s 12V system is Safe-T-Alert, made by Marine Technologies, available from wholesale Marine (online) for $64.94. Being a different brand than what Ranger originally installed, it is likely that the wiring harness won’t simply “clip” together and you will need to splice the wires together. Also, this model has the 5 year expiration rather than 7 year, but would still be a bargain if willing to take on a small DIY project to join the wires.

3. A less expensive “home” style CO detector from a big box retailer or Amazon (Amazon sells a 9V battery powered version for $18, or 2/$3) is what some folks have used to replace the original. Why pay more for the more expensive marine (12V) style? Three key differences:
A) The less expensive home version is more sensitive to any trace amount of carbon monoxide present. This is because in a home environment, there simply should NEVER be any presence of CO gas. However, in a boat there are often short periods when a fleeting presence of CO may be present, such as if a gust of wind were to blow toward the cabin when you happened to open the cabin door. You may get many “false” reads due to this sensitivity. For marine application, the carbon monoxide alarm is designed to detect the presence of CO over a measured period of time rather than a mere fleeting moment. False alarms are more than a nuisance: they train us to ignore them. (Who doesn’t hear a car alarm today and not think: “someone’s car alarm is inadvertently going off” rather than; “hey, someone is stealing a car”!)
B) Marine versions are made with higher quality, rust-resistant wire that are designed to withstand exposure to a more corrosive environment.
C) Hard-wired (tied-in to your boat’s 12V system) is more reliable than using 9V batteries. Why? Unlike a home, it is not uncommon for a boat to sit weeks, maybe even months between use. With a 9V battery, should the alarm go off, it is possible that no one is around to hear it, and the battery dies before you visit your boat. Having never heard the alarm, which is now incapable of going off, you have a false sense of security having missed being alerted to either the presence of carbon monoxide; or the timing alarm and need to replace the battery.

Also, the 12V units are designed to use very little electricity, so draining your boat’s battery bank is a very remote concern.

Lastly, carbon monoxide is known as “the silent killer” and the danger is very real. In Minnesota, a law was passed recently requiring the use of the hard-wired 12V version rather than the less expensive 9V home-style versions. Is this really an area you want to save pennies when there is a genuine risk of life?

 

[trailertrawlerkismet]

Seaquel, your thorough summary report is great information for all of us, thank you for taking the time to write your findings and bringing this important topic back.

Jim F

 

[Marnis]

First Alert sells a home carbon monoxide unit that has a built in 10 year battery. It can be wall mounted or sit loose. It also shows surrounding temperature. I have bought several at Costco over the years. Lists for $35.00 and goes on sale every few months for $25.00. It is tamper proof and on 24/7.

Marnis

 

[NorthernFocus]

...Doing a bit of research, I thought I’d share what I’ve learned about purchasing a replacement because I believe there is some confusion and mis-information about what units are suitable as replacement for your boat:...
3. A less expensive “home” style CO detector from a big box retailer or Amazon ... is what some folks have used to replace the original. Why pay more for the more expensive marine (12V) style? Three key differences:
A) The less expensive home version is more sensitive to any trace amount of carbon monoxide present. This is because in a home environment, there simply should NEVER be any presence of CO gas. However, in a boat there are often short periods when a fleeting presence of CO may be present, such as if a gust of wind were to blow toward the cabin when you happened to open the cabin door. You may get many “false” reads due to this sensitivity. For marine application, the carbon monoxide alarm is designed to detect the presence of CO over a measured period of time rather than a mere fleeting moment. False alarms are more than a nuisance: they train us to ignore them. (Who doesn’t hear a car alarm today and not think: “someone’s car alarm is inadvertently going off” rather than; “hey, someone is stealing a car”!)

Not sure where this info comes from. Sounds like marketing talking points from those trying to justify the 5x price of marine units. But at any rate we've used non-marine units for years on two different boats without these sensitivity issues.

B) Marine versions are made with higher quality, rust-resistant wire that are designed to withstand exposure to a more corrosive environment.

Again not sure where this info is coming from. When I researched the relevant regulatory/industry standards a couple of years ago I couldn't find any requirements for materials of construction. As I recall standards were all performance based and specified various functional requirements and testing to be UL and/or CG approved. The test for marine service is a splash/spray test. The standards specify what the thing has to do not how it has to be built to accomplish that.

C) Hard-wired (tied-in to your boat’s 12V system) is more reliable than using 9V batteries. Why? Unlike a home, it is not uncommon for a boat to sit weeks, maybe even months between use. With a 9V battery, should the alarm go off, it is possible that no one is around to hear it, and the battery dies before you visit your boat. Having never heard the alarm, which is now incapable of going off, you have a false sense of security having missed being alerted to either the presence of carbon monoxide; or the timing alarm and need to replace the battery.

One can argue both ways for the wired vs battery power. One downside to being wired to the 12V system is that it is a fused circuit. The same type person who isn't staying on top of whether a battery powered unit is functional isn't likely to know whether a fuse is blown, wiring is corroded, etc.

This is one of those topics with no right answer. But if one has complete faith that government regulations always get it right then go with the CG standard and stick with the wired version. Though based on my experience even govt regs are written assuming a certain level of maintenance and operational responsibility.

 

[Seaquel]

Hey Dan, thanks for your comments. I do not profess to be an expert, simply sharing my research of available data because at the very least, one should make an informed decision and not just based on price alone. I nearly purchased the 2/$30 deal on Amazon because of price, but then chose to look a little deeper.

As to where these "talking points" come from, I tried to steer clear of ads and other manufacturers propaganda, looking mostly to boating forums such as "The Hull Truth", "Boating World", and others such as airplane pilot forums who take this issue deathly seriously. Doesn't mean there isn't some marketing that has helped shape opinions, and I don't disagree that there is room for opinions on this. In fact that is the secondary reason I wanted to share my findings, as I figured others would chime in and the more data points the better for each of us to arrive at a conclusion we are comfortable with.

I will stress that there is a difference between a time-weighted measure (used in Marine units) vs. more simple measure of presence or not (used in homes). Intuitively, for me, this makes sense for our boat application.

One can argue whether a "marine build" truly is more resistant to corrosion, humidity, and vibration as some claim. We do know that there are many products cost more for marine use because they are made to withstand the harsh environment; just as we know there are many products that are identical but cost twice as much just because they claim they are suitable for marine environment or are sold in a boating venue. Sometimes you pay a ridiculous premium for no reason; but we have all experienced the "you get what you pay for" when buying something that is truly "cheap" and lacking value without understanding (until later) that there was truly a difference in product quality, performance, etc.

While you can argue both sides, with the relative low cost (even at $99 over 7 years that is just $14/year, or barely $1/month) my question comes back to: are you willing to bet your life on the cheaper product? Here's where I draw the line: I use Costco Kirkland Signature Toilet Paper because it works perfectly well at a fraction of the price vs. "marine grade" toilet paper. If I was wrong, the worst thing would be a rebuild on my head, not exactly a life or death consequence. The relative risks to save less than $14/year just doesn't seem worth the gamble when the topic is of greater consequence, such as monitoring carbon monoxide which can kill you.

Would also be interested if Andrew Custis would chime in. Does Ranger Tug use the "marine" version because it is mandated by industry stanards; or because they believe there is a difference? If not mandated, Ranger could save a lot of money by buying the more common 9V version found at the big box stores (and Amazon). If mandated, what what was the rationale driving this industry standard?

I referenced a recent law in Minnesota. This is called "Sophia's Law" after the tragic death of a 7 year old girl from carbon monoxide poisoning on the family boat. The new law, which will take effect later this year, specifies a "marine certified" detector, is likely to spread to more states. Here is a link regarding this tragedy that is well worth reading:
http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-fi ... 383362701/

 

[scross]

I replaced our factory cave CO detector with two of these:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Worry ... /203728677
Less than $81 for both.
One went into the cave and one into the v-berth on the wall next to my head while sleeping. Very easy install - less than 20 minutes for both. Very small and unobtrusive units. The alarms are loud!! It uses a 10 year lithium battery, not a 9 volt alkaline battery. As for seeing if the battery is still working, the LED indicator shows that!
Displays current CO levels and peak CO levels.
Won't meet Minnesota's law but having dual units like I have installed is going to catch any CO problem!

 

[NorthernFocus]

...are you willing to bet your life on the cheaper product?...

In this case yes. I'm certainly not willing to bet my life on the more expensive one just because it is more expensive. The concept of economy of scale likely has as much/more to do with retail cost than does quality of construction/function. We should all make informed decisions. And we each have to decide what defines "informed". Having spent my entire life on boats and a good portion of my professional career working on intrinsically safe control systems I'm comfortable that the safety posture of my boat is not reduced by a simpler battery powered CO detector.

By the way the location of the detector has as much or more to do with its effectiveness as anything else. Ironically that's much less discussed than this topic.

 

[scross]

I’m agreeing with Dan. The Minnesota law seems more intent on a very specific remedy to the CO danger rather than simply requiring installation of a range of appropriate detectors to mitigate the risk. I’m confident my dual location battery powered CO detectors are just as effective as a single marine hardwired CO detector solution.
As far as placement here’s an article from
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org

“All cabins with a fuel burning appliance should have a CO alarm fitted
If fuel burning appliances, generators or engines are used whilst people sleep, all sleeping quarters will need their own alarms
If the boat has a single multi-use cabin, one alarm is OK
(Do) Not (install) over steam or heat
For the best protection, follow the alarm manufacturer's installation instructions as far as the space and nature of the boat allow
But if the placement directions are difficult to meet on your boat, these are the 'best practice' points
Try to place the alarm:
In living quarters between 1m and 3m (in plain view) from the appliance
In living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
In sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head

Before fixing (the location) test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat or buy an additional alarm.”