Cutwater 28 Steering Garmin Issue

[nelson867]

Hi Everyone,

I just closed a few weeks ago on my first Cutwater boat. It's a 2018 C28 with only 260 hours on the Volvo D4. I love it! But, I'm having issues with the steering. It wants to constantly turn to port and I have to continually correct it to starboard. i.e. I have to constantly turn the steering wheel to starboard in order to keep the boat going straight. I've been reading a number of other posts about this and it sounds like this is a very well known issue with Garmin and Cutwater. I wish I would have found this out before I closed but it is what it is now. 🙁

I have a friend that's been in boating for a long time and he's been helping me figure this out. So far this is what we've found/done.

1. The front main helm was very low on steering fluid.
2. We checked all the steering hydraulic lines and there does NOT appear to be any leaks, at least nothing we can find.
3. I did talk with the previous owner and he stated that it's always steered to port. He just used the autopilot to keep the boat going straight. Doh! 😱
4. We filled and bled the system of all air. It did help a little but the steering issue was still there, especially at speed.
5. I read in a few posts about the Gamin autopilot pump being bad from the factory. To see if this was the problem, we closed off all three bypass screws on the pump. Low and behold, it went perfectly straight!

I believe I have found the culprit. The question now is, what to do about it? I'm hoping other Cutwater owners have dealt with this and might have some suggestions on how to move forward.

Since it's a 2018, there's a thought that it could still be under warranty. I don't know the in service date yet but I plan to check the next time I'm at the docks. Has anyone been successful in getting Cutwater and/or Garmin to warranty the pump? If so, how?

If it's not under warranty, what are my options? I'm thinking I could just replace it, but I've also heard of Garmin giving special pricing to replace it. Does anyone know what hoops I need to jump through to get that?

Do I have to replace the entire pump of is there a rebuild kit?

Etc, etc, etc, ...

Any advice would be appreciated!

Btw, I do plan on calling Cutwater and Garmin tomorrow (Monday) and see if I can get anywhere.

Thanks, Scott

 

[BB marine]

Call Garmin! They will set you up with a new pump or rebuild yours. ( Time to bleed your case!) You can remove the pump without opening the hydraulic system and you will not need to bleed the complete system and have oil leak out by closing the three brass shut off screws that you used for troubleshooting. Once the screw are snugged closed you can remove the manifold from the pump. Garmin will explain this to you with better detail when you talk to them. Good Luck.

 

[SummerSteve]

I'll offer a little hope! Although if you are near the end of your warranty, acting now may be prudent.

Our 2013 C-26 has had this issue twice, once on our first major cruise down the Chesapeake, and again on the first trip of this year.

The first time, I was told to just use autopilot for all distance driving until we could reach garmin to resolve - and it cleared up after a day or two and never came back (I speculate that some bubbles had developed that worked their way out) - no fluid was needed.

After launch this spring, It happened and I checked the reservoir and it needed a good amount (maybe a cup or so) of fluid - added and resolved. Not sure where the fluid went - no leaks anywhere visible - but we've put on lots of hours since and it's acting great...

So hopefully - yours just needs some time to work out it's problem!

 

[tdellaviola]

I had the same issue. Had to replace the autopilot pump. I upgraded to the next level up from the original installed. No problems since. This was for a 2014 C30.

 

[nelson867]

Thanks! Its reassuring to know that it's fixable and that Garmin might be willing to provide some kind of warranty help. I tried to call Garmin today but apparently they've been down for 3-4 days now due to a ransom ware virus attack ($10 million ransom). I can't even call them. All I get is a message saying they are down, goodbye. I'll keep trying.

 

[Cessna172]

I too have a 2017 C28 with the same issue - constantly needed steered to the right to correct the boat from going port.

I am not saying that the Garmin pump isn't a problem, by the number of posts describing issues it clearly is defective.
However, I have noticed another contributing factor. Mine, and many others owners of C28's I've talked to, describe a flat water port side list. To correct this while running requires deploying extra port - side trim tab. With the additional port- side tab extending deeper into the water, this causes the boat to continuously want to steer left.

I have experience significantly less port- side "pull" with less trim tab extended.

 

[Wee Venture]

With the additional port- side tab extending deeper into the water, this causes the boat to continuously want to steer left.
I have experience significantly less port- side "pull" with less trim tab extended.

You have a good point regarding “pull.” Another significant factor is that the rudder is offset (necessary for pulling the shaft). So steering to starboard takes more force than to port because of greater propwash.

However, if it were just a matter of pull, you should still be able to set the rudder in a position that compensates and hold it steady to steer a straight course. What many people have experienced is that the wheel needs to continuously be turned to the right in order to just steer a straight course, without the wheel ever locking. This is a hydraulics problem and in many cases seems to have been traced to the AP pump having an internal leak.

John

 

[nelson867]

Update...

I finally was able to get Garmin on the phone. My particular pump has been discontinued, probably because of all the issues. There is a replacement but the hydraulic fittings have changed. I'll have to get some adapters when I get the pump later this week.

I have to say, while the guy on the phone was helpful and polite, I'm rather disappointed that Garmin didn't do more given how many problems have arisen around this pump. A credit or discount would have been nice. It is out of warranty so I guess this is expected. I'll just pay the $1k and move on. (my personal rant)

When I get the new pump installed, I'll let everyone know how it goes.

 

[Toki]

Really? The Garmin guy didn't mention the $400 exchange program for a new pump? Might want to call him back and mention that.

My replacement pump came with screw-on connectors, but they also sent a set of snap-on bayonet connectors to adapt to older systems.

 

[BB marine]

The fitting changes I think will help future failures. I had issues early on with the shadow drive. It didn't work! I spoke with Garmin about trouble shooting the issue. The first question they asked was how many ports are being used in the shut off valve block I said 5. That is a typical Cutwater install. Garmin said I should install tee fittings and only use 3 this will prevent future problems with the pump. They never elaborated on what issues. I changed the plumbing a couple months after purchasing the boat (2016). I moved the pump further from the shadow drive solenoid and all has worked fine since. gallery2.php?g2_itemId=67962

Good luck with your install and yes it sucks that there is no credit or discount. I think Garmin has made a profit off all the failed pumps from Cutwaters.

 

[ixlr8]

Update...

I finally was able to get Garmin on the phone. My particular pump has been discontinued, probably because of all the issues. There is a replacement but the hydraulic fittings have changed. I'll have to get some adapters when I get the pump later this week.

I have to say, while the guy on the phone was helpful and polite, I'm rather disappointed that Garmin didn't do more given how many problems have arisen around this pump. A credit or discount would have been nice. It is out of warranty so I guess this is expected. I'll just pay the $1k and move on. (my personal rant)

When I get the new pump installed, I'll let everyone know how it goes.

What model was your old pump and what model is the new pump? I am having the same issue with my 27OB after only 18 hrs.

 

[ixlr8]

I wonder how many of the Garmin AP pump issues on Fluid Motion boats are due to the pumps not being installed/plumbed the way Garmin specifies. I have never been able to get an answer why FM installs the Garmin pumps the way they do. The only answer I have gotten, from the factory, is "This is the way we do it and it works". My pump appears to be shot, after less than 18 hrs. When I install the new one, I intend to install it per Garmin specs, if I can find all the valves and fittings I need. It will take up a little more room with the extra fittings/valves, but if it gives me a more reliable system, I am okay with that.

 

[brofish17]

The auto pilot pump on my 18 R27OB has been flushed 3 times and replaced twice, once by Andrew on the way to Desolation Sound (above and beyond, I thought) and then by Garmin. The last trick was to add a check valve to the pump and adjust the OB trim tab (the little skag on the lower unit). Worked great last fall when done. Now having problems again. Plus the shop straightened my skag when they serviced it this spring... :x

 

[nelson867]

What model was your old pump and what model is the new pump? I am having the same issue with my 27OB after only 18 hrs.

I currently have the GHP 10 1.2L pump (010-11098-00).

This is the pump Garmin recommended as a replacement:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079DFKH4Z

For the most part, I think its just a newer version of the same pump.

 

[Cutwater28GG]

im curious with all these failures.

does the pump just keep the pressure up and then valves are used to control the release of the pressure to change the angle of the rudder or does the pump pump variably to control the rudder?

 

[SassyRed]

Something doesn't seem totally right here. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. You said that the previous owner used the autopilot to keep the boat steering straight. I'm not sure I understand how the autopilot would keep the boat steering straight if the pump was failed.

We have a 30 and not a 28, so I cannot say whether the hydraulics are run the same way for both boats. But I do know that for the 30 there is a check valve kit that can be installed to possibly resolve this issue. The kit includes T fittings and a check valve. One T's the steering hydraulics into the pump via the check valve instead of running the steering hydraulics through the pump directly. What this does is take the pump out of the direct steering hydraulic path, and so should make it so the pump doesn't have any impact on steering when the autopilot isn't driving.

Maybe this information isn't worth anything to you, but before you spend big $$ on a new pump, you might talk to someone about whether this check valve is appropriate for the 28. Also, we are having the kit installed on our boat, but haven't tried it yet. Maybe others on here can give their experience.

Good luck

 

[ixlr8]

What model was your old pump and what model is the new pump? I am having the same issue with my 27OB after only 18 hrs.

I currently have the GHP 10 1.2L pump (010-11098-00).

This is the pump Garmin recommended as a replacement:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079DFKH4Z

For the most part, I think its just a newer version of the same pump.

Thank you

 

[BB marine]

I wonder how many of the Garmin AP pump issues on Fluid Motion boats are due to the pumps not being installed/plumbed the way Garmin specifies. I have never been able to get an answer why FM installs the Garmin pumps the way they do. The only answer I have gotten, from the factory, is "This is the way we do it and it works". My pump appears to be shot, after less than 18 hrs. When I install the new one, I intend to install it per Garmin specs, if I can find all the valves and fittings I need. It will take up a little more room with the extra fittings/valves, but if it gives me a more reliable system, I am okay with that.

I can't state that the Fluid motion's installation is causing the issue. I can say that I changed the installation early on because of reading about other Cutwater owners autopilot pump failures and the issue I was having with my shadow drive. The first question that Garmin asked was" How are the hydraulic lines plumbed to the shutoff valve manifold ?" How many ports are being utilized ? Garmin recommended I change the installation stating it could prevent future problems with the pump. They never came out and said Fluid Motion's installation will cause damage to the pump. With all the pump failures each year posted on TugNuts, I would guess there may be more that are not posted. I changed the hydraulic hose connections at the pump shortly after purchasing the boat (2016) I also at that time flushed the lines to hopefully flush any contaminants that may have entered the open lines during the build. I did the old fashion bleed using the helm and to this point have not experienced an issue. 5 seasons of operating the boat 430hr. Is it just luck that I have not had an issue ? Probably ! Is it because I changed the plumbing as Garmin suggested ? Maybe ! Do I question why Fluid motion does not install the units as per Garmin's recommendation? Yes! I assume there is a reason.

 

[asm777]

Something doesn't seem totally right here. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. You said that the previous owner used the autopilot to keep the boat steering straight. I'm not sure I understand how the autopilot would keep the boat steering straight if the pump was failed.

We have a 30 and not a 28, so I cannot say whether the hydraulics are run the same way for both boats. But I do know that for the 30 there is a check valve kit that can be installed to possibly resolve this issue. The kit includes T fittings and a check valve. One T's the steering hydraulics into the pump via the check valve instead of running the steering hydraulics through the pump directly. What this does is take the pump out of the direct steering hydraulic path, and so should make it so the pump doesn't have any impact on steering when the autopilot isn't driving.

Maybe this information isn't worth anything to you, but before you spend big $$ on a new pump, you might talk to someone about whether this check valve is appropriate for the 28. Also, we are having the kit installed on our boat, but haven't tried it yet. Maybe others on here can give their experience.

Good luck

With the GHP 10, when the pump "fails", something breaks inside that allows the steering to "slip" and the rudder will not hold position. Due to prop thrust, the rudder will then slip to port and the boat will need constant clockwise turns of the steering wheel to maintain heading.

When you activate the autopilot "heading hold", my guess is that the autopilot is constantly adjusting the rudder to starboard so that the boat will track straight. (I used to do this all the time as well. When the pump got really bad, couldn't even do this. The boat would track 5 degrees to port of the set heading as the pump couldn't seem to overcome the steering slippage).

The test for this has been mentioned before where the brass bypass screws are turned in to remove the autopilot pump from the steering system. If the boat can now travel straight and hold heading (no longer turning to port) with the autopilot off, then something went wrong with the pump.

Our last pump failed in 2018 and after numerous components replaced to try to identify the root cause of these pump failures, we've been trouble-free since October 2018. Not sure if Garmin/Fluid Motion ever determined the cause of these failures... I can't imagine it's been cost effective to keep replacing pumps (especially those under warranty) rather than identify the cause and resolve it once and for all!

But since the OP's boat is a 2018, perhaps we'll stop seeing these posts with newer boats as it does seem that Garmin has made changes to the pump since I last looked a few years ago...?

OP, hope you get your steering issues sorted out! These boats have lots of systems that can fail being in the marine environment but the silver lining to finding and resolving "problems" is that you get that much more knowledgeable about your boat! :lol:

 

[ixlr8]

Do I question why Fluid motion does not install the units as per Garmin's recommendation? Yes! I assume there is a reason.

I have talked with several folks at FM about their autopilot pump install and why they don't do it per Garmin's recommendations. None of them can tell me the why they do it the way they do. They just say it works so that is the way we do it. Not the answer I was looking for. My dealer told me it was to make it easier to service the pump, but I don't buy that.
I suspect it keeps fittings out of the way and gives a little more room in the locker and less chance for folks to break off the valves and tees that would stick out if it was plumbed the way Garmin recommends. If my checking account doesn't scream too loudly, I am going to add power steering to my boat, as well as a new AP pump plumbed per Garmin's instructions and see how that works. Presently anything above 15 mph and the steering is too hard for my wife to be able to handle the boat. After doing a sea trial in a C-302 with power steering I knew it was the answer to her issue. I think $3K for a pump and some lines is better $$$ spent than $150K for a new boat. I understand that a factory member with a R-23 has added the power steering and really likes it, but it was a bit of a hassle to install.