Dead start battery after a night on the anchor.

[Vance1965]

I'm confused as to why I had 9.9v on my start battery after being on the anchor for 18 hours. It's my understanding that if you turn the batteries to the "off" position all but the house power should be isolated. Note : I never use the "parallel" switch for anything but emergency start situations . (Like this )

Full disclosure... I did recently add an additional parallel switch that only joins the thruster battery with the house to give me an additional 110Ah . However this only gets used after we are set for the day/night at anchor and never is on while underway. I was very careful with this connection making sure it didn't connect anything else so I'm fairly certain that this isn't the issue.

I recently upgraded the solar to a 250w panel and a Victron 30/100 controller. The old controller had (2) charge wires going to both of the ACR relays . This one only has (1) output that I ran to the house battery side of 1 ACR. Could this be the issue? Seems like the the start battery would still be isolated and clear from any loads that would discharge it.

We had spent 2 nights on the anchor just 2 days ago and had no problem with starting.

If anyone has words of wisdom I'm all ears.

Vance

 

[fishheadbarandgrill]

You didn't mention the age of the battery. Seems that your solar hookup is good. Keep in mind that the ACR will only kick in (allowing excess current to go to the starter battery) once the house bank is fully charged. A 250W panel probably isn't strong enough to fully charge your house bank and your starter battery at your latitude this time of the year. Keep in mind that the starter battery has dedicated systems that draw directly from the battery that aren't on a breaker. I'm thinking CO sensors.

 

[dbsea]

You didn't mention the age of the battery. Seems that your solar hookup is good. Keep in mind that the ACR will only kick in (allowing excess current to go to the starter battery) once the house bank is fully charged. A 250W panel probably isn't strong enough to fully charge your house bank and your starter battery at your latitude this time of the year. Keep in mind that the starter battery has dedicated systems that draw directly from the battery that aren't on a breaker. I'm thinking CO sensors.

+1 to systems that can draw from starter. Sometimes (correct or not) bilge pumps can be wired to the start battery as well.

 

[Brian John]

From what I see glancing at the schematics for Ranger Tugs.

BASED ON AN R-29 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)

The Engine battery is used for
Starting
V-Berth Fuse Block ALWAYS ON
Voltmeter
Engine Hatch
Stove

BASED ON AN R-31 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)

The Engine battery is used for
Starting
24-7 Fuse Block ALWAYS ON
Voltmeter
Stove

BASED ON AN R-27 and R-23 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)
On the schematic nothing is shown other than engine starting

BASED ON AN R-25 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)
The do not have a schematic for the R-25?

 

[Nwdiver]

Did you leave the ignition on? I think the hydraulic steering and some engine electronics come from engine batteries

 

[glider4]

Vance1965,
You mentioned that your solar controller was wired to your ACR. In my installation of a 335 watt panel with a VE 100/30 controller, my wires from the controller go directly to one of the house batteries terminals. Not to the house ACR. That’s what’s specified in the VE controller installation instructions.
I’m not sure what the benefits are of wiring to the ACR rather than to the battery terminals. Can you educate me about this?

 

[BB marine]

Vance1965,
You mentioned that your solar controller was wired to your ACR. In my installation of a 335 watt panel with a VE 100/30 controller, my wires from the controller go directly to one of the house batteries terminals. Not to the house ACR. That’s what’s specified in the VE controller installation instructions.
I’m not sure what the benefits are of wiring to the ACR rather than to the battery terminals. Can you educate me about this?

The advantage of wiring direct to the ACR terminal instead of the battery post is less wires to remove from the battery post. There should be no operational change in the charge to the house battery as long as the ABYC recommended fuse between the battery and ACR is not open or "blown".
(This is one of many ABYC recommendations that is not followed by Fluid Motion. ACR's are to be protected by a fuse/breaker between the ACR and batteries. Blue Sea Systems : "* It is recommended that the ACR be connected directly to your battery positive terminals through appropriately sized fuses.") This is also an ABYC recommendation.


If your ACR is wired as per ABYC and Blue Sea recommendations. (fused between battery + and ACR and small ground wire - fused also) I would have the Solar controller output go to an appropriate sized breaker ( protecting the solar controller ) then directly to the battery that it is to be charging.


As for Vance 1965 question, engine battery dead after 18 hours on the hook. My first thought would be a dead cell in the battery. This would cause the battery to discharge quickly. If the boat is plugged into shore power most of the time you would not realize the poor condition of the battery because it is being charged by the onboard charger. When you unplug ,start the engine the engine charging system is now taking over and maintaining the battery that is in poor condition. When you anchor the only charging source it seems you have is the solar which is connected to the house bank. If the engine battery is at or above 11V the ACR will close if and when the solar output is enough to bring the house bank above 13.6 volts.This may happen during the day but once solar is no longer maintaining an output charge, the banks are disconnected. Over night the Engine battery may discharge to a point below 11V. If this happens it no longer can get a charge from the solar or any resource unless it is energized by another battery source that is charged. This can be done by selecting (on) the engine to house cross over switch.

There should be no circuits wired to the engine bank. The 24/7 circuits are wired to the thruster bank. At least they should be based on production wiring schematics. My First step would be to fully change the engine battery. Check the voltage after it is fully charged with a VOC volt meter. Should read 12.6 to 12.8. Do not charge the battery for 24 hours recheck the voltage. It should still be at 12.6 to 12.8 +/- .1 from original reading. If you find it to be lower than that showing a discharge. I would then disconnect the main ground cable or cables from the battery. Recheck again after 12 to 24 hours with no charge cycle. If the battery voltage as dropped more I would suspect the battery has an internal issue (dead cell ) and is self discharging. If the battery voltage did not drop at all I would start looking for a draw from a component that should not be using 12V dc.

Make sure all connections are clean and tight. If you have doubts about the battery condition. Remove the battery and charge with a good bench charger. Let it rest for 24 hours after a full charge then take it to your battery supplier and have it LOAD TESTED.

 

[dbsea]

Agree with what you said Brian. Especially if it's one of the UBG batteries. They are undersized for a start battery and of substandard quality in my opinion.

 

[Cutwater28GG]

I've had similar experiences with the engine batt after a night or two of anchoring.

I'm curious. for the night you were at anchor was it sunny in the evening?

if voltage (via the solar panel) increases and drops on a regular basis as the boat swings in and out of shadow you can have the ACR's open and close continuously - essentially merging the engine with the house battery temporarily (as designed) but if it continues to do this all evening it might pull some of the capacity off the engine battery.

in itself this is not a disaster, but the universals are undersized for the start on a cut28.
Ive found that a universal engine battery that has been left to sit overnight and trying to start a cold D4 that it can really struggle. this is especially true if the battery is a few years old (not dead but not new)

the combo of the two might be contributing to your issue. this might be magnified if your batteries are later in their life and capacity and performance are diminished.

 

[Vance1965]

You didn't mention the age of the battery. Seems that your solar hookup is good. Keep in mind that the ACR will only kick in (allowing excess current to go to the starter battery) once the house bank is fully charged. A 250W panel probably isn't strong enough to fully charge your house bank and your starter battery at your latitude this time of the year. Keep in mind that the starter battery has dedicated systems that draw directly from the battery that aren't on a breaker. I'm thinking CO sensors.

Bob, my batteries are 2 years old. All (4) are 110Ah interstate AEGs. I've had them load tested and all are passing fine. I see your point about the solar not charging up the house enough to get to the start battery. Ranger has (2) ACRs installed in the boat. The old solar controller had a primary and secondary solar output. The new one only has 1 output. I'm wondering if I need to feed the start battery first and when it's fully charged the ACR charges the house?

 

[Vance1965]

From what I see glancing at the schematics for Ranger Tugs.

BASED ON AN R-29 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)

The Engine battery is used for
Starting
V-Berth Fuse Block ALWAYS ON
Voltmeter
Engine Hatch
Stove

BASED ON AN R-31 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)

The Engine battery is used for
Starting
24-7 Fuse Block ALWAYS ON
Voltmeter
Stove

BASED ON AN R-27 and R-23 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)
On the schematic nothing is shown other than engine starting

BASED ON AN R-25 MANUAL (not sure how old this manual is)
The do not have a schematic for the R-25?

Brian, I did have a look at the ranger electrical drawings provided but they are very inaccurate. I didn't want to trust in them to much. Think I'll make a project of creating my own . My first mission is to see what else is fed from the start battery. Shouldn't be too difficult to isolate.

 

[Vance1965]

Did you leave the ignition on? I think the hydraulic steering and some engine electronics come from engine batteries

Nwdriver,
No, the ignition was off I always turn off the engine battery switch when on the anchor . This seems to shut off all the engine controls at the helm.

 

[Vance1965]

Vance1965,
You mentioned that your solar controller was wired to your ACR. In my installation of a 335 watt panel with a VE 100/30 controller, my wires from the controller go directly to one of the house batteries terminals. Not to the house ACR. That’s what’s specified in the VE controller installation instructions.
I’m not sure what the benefits are of wiring to the ACR rather than to the battery terminals. Can you educate me about this?

The advantage of wiring direct to the ACR terminal instead of the battery post is less wires to remove from the battery post. There should be no operational change in the charge to the house battery as long as the ABYC recommended fuse between the battery and ACR is not open or "blown".
(This is one of many ABYC recommendations that is not followed by Fluid Motion. ACR's are to be protected by a fuse/breaker between the ACR and batteries. Blue Sea Systems : "* It is recommended that the ACR be connected directly to your battery positive terminals through appropriately sized fuses.") This is also an ABYC recommendation.


If your ACR is wired as per ABYC and Blue Sea recommendations. (fused between battery + and ACR and small ground wire - fused also) I would have the Solar controller output go to an appropriate sized breaker ( protecting the solar controller ) then directly to the battery that it is to be charging.


As for Vance 1965 question, engine battery dead after 18 hours on the hook. My first thought would be a dead cell in the battery. This would cause the battery to discharge quickly. If the boat is plugged into shore power most of the time you would not realize the poor condition of the battery because it is being charged by the onboard charger. When you unplug ,start the engine the engine charging system is now taking over and maintaining the battery that is in poor condition. When you anchor the only charging source it seems you have is the solar which is connected to the house bank. If the engine battery is at or above 11V the ACR will close if and when the solar output is enough to bring the house bank above 13.6 volts.This may happen during the day but once solar is no longer maintaining an output charge, the banks are disconnected. Over night the Engine battery may discharge to a point below 11V. If this happens it no longer can get a charge from the solar or any resource unless it is energized by another battery source that is charged. This can be done by selecting (on) the engine to house cross over switch.

There should be no circuits wired to the engine bank. The 24/7 circuits are wired to the thruster bank. At least they should be based on production wiring schematics. My First step would be to fully change the engine battery. Check the voltage after it is fully charged with a VOC volt meter. Should read 12.6 to 12.8. Do not charge the battery for 24 hours recheck the voltage. It should still be at 12.6 to 12.8 +/- .1 from original reading. If you find it to be lower than that showing a discharge. I would then disconnect the main ground cable or cables from the battery. Recheck again after 12 to 24 hours with no charge cycle. If the battery voltage as dropped more I would suspect the battery has an internal issue (dead cell ) and is self discharging. If the battery voltage did not drop at all I would start looking for a draw from a component that should not be using 12V dc.

Make sure all connections are clean and tight. If you have doubts about the battery condition. Remove the battery and charge with a good bench charger. Let it rest for 24 hours after a full charge then take it to your battery supplier and have it LOAD TESTED.

BB marine, Thank you for the information. I am certain that my batteries are good after a recent load test at interstate. I have a feeling I have a wiring issue at my ACRs . It seems likes such a simple device but I'm having a hard time with where to land the charging leads from the solar. Seems like charging the start fully should be priority and then house power? Thoughts??

 

[Vance1965]

I've had similar experiences with the engine batt after a night or two of anchoring.

I'm curious. for the night you were at anchor was it sunny in the evening?

if voltage (via the solar panel) increases and drops on a regular basis as the boat swings in and out of shadow you can have the ACR's open and close continuously - essentially merging the engine with the house battery temporarily (as designed) but if it continues to do this all evening it might pull some of the capacity off the engine battery.

in itself this is not a disaster, but the universals are undersized for the start on a cut28.
Ive found that a universal engine battery that has been left to sit overnight and trying to start a cold D4 that it can really struggle. this is especially true if the battery is a few years old (not dead but not new)

the combo of the two might be contributing to your issue. this might be magnified if your batteries are later in their life and capacity and performance are diminished.

Cutwater28GG,
No we had a fairly cloudy evening . I haven't thought about it with the relay joining the 2 banks. I'll look into how it's wired this weekend. We are out of the water and on a trailer for the winter now so it's time to make my own wiring diagrams and really learn how these ACRs work .