Discussion if safety in high seas

[Margaret Lower]

Seems every potential owner brings up the issue of safety in high seas. Many match tug size with safest: &-1/2' beam vs 10' beam. Has anyone ever capsized a RangerTug? Just curious?

 

[scross]

At least one Ranger Tug has burned to the waterline in a marina, at least one broke from its mooring and was dashed to bits on the rocks, a Cutwater sank tied to the dock in Alaska, one suffered extensive fresh water damage from storms possibly while trailered, several have been seriously damaged by lightning strikes and one was presumably dropped on the hard and suffered significant hull damage.
I personally have not heard of one being capsized while occupied.
PS: And at least one Cutwater/Ranger Tug burned up during the boat warehouse storage fire on Haden Island, Portland, OR a few years ago.

 

[nzfisher]

I have been out in some ugly open water. My biggest worry are following seas and taking a wave over the transom but when it has gotten really nasty I have quartered the waves rather than allowed them from coming straight over the back. As for capsizing I suppose anything is possible. I suppose there are “perfect storm” options but what would one be doing out in those conditions. Following sea conditions most likely to be the worst and occur most often coming into a harbor over sand bars on days with big seas.

 

[Nwdiver]

And at least one was beached

https://youtu.be/uz5yPJfRecQ

 

[knotflying]

The inboard tugs have a pretty good low center of gravity point. I know of one tug owner caught in some pretty serious stuff on Lake Michigan. He said they were healing at times over 45 degrees and she never rolled over.

 

[FWTMD]

To just state a few obvious points to put them on the table:

The best way to handle heavy weather is to avoid it. Just don't be there. Remain in port or in a snug anchorage on such days. This gives rise to the old wisdom that the most dangerous part of a boat is a schedule (where you feel compelled to head out, back home, due to the calendar.) But not to sound too pious, sooner or later pretty much all boaters who work have found themselves making a rough Sunday run to make it home in time to return to work on Monday. It happens.

There is no avoiding the fact that the safest boats are the biggest and heaviest. That's a comment on all boats, not just this line of boats. Fluid's boats are designed for trailers, where light weight and small size are prized. The smaller and lighter the boat, the more it will bob like a cork. The more it bobs like a cork, the more the boaters will be beaten to death in weather.

Which gives rise to the need to learn YOUR boat and YOUR skills and YOUR limits. Use days that are kinda bad but not terrible to try different approaches to handling it, and experience how the boat handles weather on the nose, abeam, and on the stern. Try different speeds and techniques. Build some sort of plan for when its worse and you need it. Note what your weather apps are saying about that day's wind and wave height to help make the next judgement about how much is too much.

Worst is weather on the beam, but a close second is running with waves on the stern. You are asking about capsizing, and note all Fluid boats have a nice big cockpit for outdoor fun. I am not aware of any of them taking water over the transom and filling it, but that's a risk you want to avoid.

The biggest risk is probably in following seas, where waves on the stern lift the stern, the bow digs in, and the stern gets pushed, so you go broadside to the waves introducing roll and broaching. This is where you really need to understand how to handle things, and the best speed to handle it with YOUR boat.

(Note: you may realize but other readers may not, that its not just about wave height. Wave period is probably more important. Shorter height but with a short period that has waves stacked close together can be tougher than higher waves farther apart.)

Think of it like driving a car. If you begin to lose control on snow or ice, you need to know from knowledge and experience that kicks in instantly of what to do and how to do it. And the best way to gain that is to take a 16 year old onto an empty parking lot that has a skim of snow and have them intentionally lose control at a modest speed and then regain control. Practice, so that you are prepared when it happens in traffic.

So its not just risk built into the boat, its as much about the risks brought into the equation by the boater.

There are a ton of videos on YouTube showing parades of boats in the rough inlets of Florida, and how they handle (good and bad) rough and confused conditions. Watch them with an eye of what to do and not do. Its worth the time.

Its important to be cautious as you obviously are, and that's good. But no reason to be afraid. No reason to be afraid of these boats, so long as you remain within the limits of these boats and your own limits.

 

[tlkenyon]

From my 10 years experience in two different Ranger tugs (2005 21 Classic and 2015 25sc), the most significant danger I encountered was from being thrown about in the cabin in rough, short period waves. The boats were doing OK, with only occasional water on the fore deck, but hanging on was a serious challenge. Falling and getting hurt in those conditions would have been a real problem...getting help would have been almost impossible. I worry a lot less about capsizing and a lot more about the people inside what can be a real carnival ride....

 

[Gunner065]

I'm a seasoned sailor by trade and although experienced serious weather while cruising with our RT 25 SC, I never felt unsafe. All our cruising is conducted in tidal waters.

On our first overnight cruise we experienced 25-30 kts winds and 5-6 feet swells (water often going over the cabin). Was it uncomfortable? yes. Was I worried? No. Would I do it again? not unless we had to get somewhere from a safety standpoint.

I soon realized that because of the narrower beam (8'6"), the boat rolls a lot in beam seas. As such, I tend to put the seas on the bows or right ahead (if our intended course allows). Using the trim tabs does have an positive effect in rough seas (at least in my experience).

When running with the sea, because of their overall length, these boats don't fair well. If able to, I usually prefer quarter seas over stern seas. Again this depends on intended courses, proximity to navigational hazards and concentration of traffic.

I would venture to state that if the intent is to spend a lot of time in unsheltered tidal waters where the weather is very unpredictable, the wider beam would have its advantages.

 

[ALICE J]

I have had three occasions where I felt tense about wave conditions. Once in Alaska, I was coming in from the ocean on long rolling waves, no concern with that, but what I did not anticipate was a sudden shallowing of the bottom. The waves suddenly bunched together and my R27 doing 6 kts was suddenly racing down the front of these steep waves, the bow dug into the trough, green water splaying up to bow gunnels, and the stern started to twist. Recalling reading about powering out of this condition, I applied power, the boat remained square to the waves, but as I applied power the boat picked up speed and was starting down the next wave, really fast now, reduced power and as the bow again dug in, more power, but this brought on more speed. I could not slow the boat down to have the waves pass under the vessel as the waves were too close After four more tense situations, I was over the bar, waves flattened. Only after I was anchored did I go over the chart and discover the bar and what caused the short steep seas. Lesson learned: even on a bright sunny calm day be aware of what can affect the sea state. The next occasion was coming through Whale Cay passage toward the mainland of Abaco in the Bahamas, I saw a white line of breaking waves with what appeared darker areas, a trawler went through the darker area so I proceeded in the same direction. As I got to that area the seas started to break on both sides of the boat. Thankfully I was towing my dinghy that acted as a sea anchor, keeping the stern square to the breaking seas. The waves were about 4-5 footers, power kept me abreast of the waves as they passed under the vessel. After a series of the wave passed, I was again in calmer waters. After anchoring, I short tied my inflatable RIB dinghy, to find it about half-filled with water. Lesson learned: should have turned around when I first saw the white water more than halfway across the opening, but I realized that my dinghy was a drogue and that came in handy several times. The third occasion was I was going 6kts in the Okeechobee Canal hearing a horn close by, was passed by 40-foot powerboat going at max wake speed, beam to his wake, I did not have time to head into his wake, was rolled perhaps 45 degrees and was very concerned about capsizing. After recovering I called him on the VHF, I said he tried to call me on the VHF, but no response. His horn signal was too late to take action. Lesson learned: my VHF was on the lockmaster's frequency not on the hailing channel, and keep a shape eye on what is behind you. I think my RT has kept me out of a lot of serious trouble, thank you Fluid Motion for this wonderful design.

 

[Toki]

Has anyone ever capsized a RangerTug?

This is a good question, CAN an RT capsize? I'm a sailor, and the only way my sailboat would capsize is if that huge lead keel fell off. I feel like my R27 is sort of similar, in that the heavy motor and fuel/water tanks are all below the waterline. If it were to get rolled by a wave, seems to me it would just pop back upright. Now the newer outboard models with all that weight up high might be a different story.

 

[wpriede]

I have a 2017 c-28, my question is, has the windshield bein designed for waves coming over the bow! I was out in long island sound when a front came through besides waves hitting the windshield I all so had hale. Has it bein design for any pounds per square inch requirements

 

[FlyMeAway]

Has anyone ever capsized a RangerTug?

This is a good question, CAN an RT capsize? I'm a sailor, and the only way my sailboat would capsize is if that huge lead keel fell off. I feel like my R27 is sort of similar, in that the heavy motor and fuel/water tanks are all below the waterline. If it were to get rolled by a wave, seems to me it would just pop back upright. Now the newer outboard models with all that weight up high might be a different story.

The physics of this are dramatically different, because in your sailboat the bulb keel was at the end of a long lever arm. Do not get overconfident. The term you want to google is "righting moment" for extensive discussion about how this differs across different types of boats (including monohull sailboats, catamarans, powerboats, etc.)

When I taught sailing we used to do righting moment demonstrations for the kiddos, to help them understand the physics... Weight low in the boat does not compensate for weight at the end of a keel.

As Archimedes said: "give me a place to stand on, and I shall move the Earth." 😀

 

[CAPTCRUNCH]

I don't think you need much of a keel to be self-righting...
https://tufmarine.com/wp-content/upload ... feboat.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH5G4hBqUos
...if you can keep the water out. Even then, I wonder how a cockpit full of water would affect the trim of my 2013 R27.

 

[dclagett]

It always interest me that for some reason folks seem to think these boats are rugged and will take on significant sea conditions. These boats are shallow draft and fairly light, that dose not equate to handling rough conditions. If you want to go out on the high seas in a variety of weather conditions you need a boat designed to take on the conditions, it will probably be a different design and larger boat than FM produces. For coastal cruising with today’s weather forecasting and current condition reporting, one should be able to operate their boat in conditions acceptable to their skills and boat capabilities. So one can go where they want with an FM boat, they just need to study the weather.

 

[FWTMD]

If you fully rolled, would the engine die? In bad enough sea conditions to cause you to roll.

I don't know the answer, but I suspect it would die. I'd think at least you would hydrolock from water intake through the exhaust.

And that might be true too if you just laid down flat on the side, especially on the starboard side with the exhaust side.

The answer, whatever it is, would be pretty much true of all coastal cruisers. Not unique to Fluid's boats.

Brian would know. What say ye?

 

[FlyMeAway]

I don't think you need much of a keel to be self-righting...
https://tufmarine.com/wp-content/upload ... feboat.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH5G4hBqUos
...if you can keep the water out. Even then, I wonder how a cockpit full of water would effect the trim of my 2013 R27.

Fair point. Much depends on a fully watertight superstructure so that you effectively have a gigantic float (an air-filled bubble) which self-rights. On our boats, I'd be most concerned with water intrusion into the engine compartment. You'd really have to do a self-righting test. I wonder if FM has done one.

But the point about righting moment still holds. The righting moment will be affected by where water goes and where water can be kept out.

 

[serpa4]

Not volunteering to test, but I agree, keeping the water outside is a big deal.
I think...the FM boats (less so with Command Bridge) are decently setup to self right.
The weight of everything heave is down pretty low. Engine, 1,500 lbs is very low. Fuel up to say 1,200 lbs low, and water 600lbs. I have no idea if there is any weight in our keels, probably not. However, the righting moment should be decent.
Then, on most FM boat, the cabin door should keep the vast majority of the water out if closed during a roll. If the weather is bad, then all you windows and hatches are closed.
I don't think these boats are self-righting, but most power boats aren't. However, I'd give the FM boats a little better chance than any of those day cruiser with open cockpits.

I have no back ground in engineering, boating, etc. Purely a guess on my part based on assumptions....

 

[Gunner065]

I would echo everyone's comments, that these boat can handle a pretty good beating, but to a limit.

I've been in the Navy for close to 26 years. In 2009, the RCN acquired new Patrol vessels to conduct navigation training in the West Coast Gulf Islands. The original design had a Black water tank at half the capacity of the Grey Water tanks. The thought was that we would operate more than half the time in US waters (hence a large capacity grey water tank). A few Captains decided to brave the Strait of Juan de Fuca and take the boats in open ocean to see if we could empty these tanks in open ocean and at 3nm from land. Big mistake, these boats were never designed for open waters, only for coastal cruising.

Morale of the story, RT are designed for relatively calm coastal waters. I did experience significant weather once (25-30 kts winds on the nose and 6-7 feet swells), but never again, if I don't have to. My wife wanted to go out as it seemed "calm" in the harbor. To prove a point that she should verify the weather conditions outside the harbor, I went along. It was a very uncomfortable ride, but my point got across to her.

Unlike a few of the US Coast Guard cutters and other high end pleasure crafts that were expressly designed to self-right or handle high surfing conditions, I doubt that the RT would fair well in extreme conditions. Remember, a boat is a submarine once in its life.

 

[CAPTCRUNCH]

If I remember my high school physics correctly, the water always wants to get in and the boat always wants to sink.

 

[TylerFromEverett]

Morale of the story, RT are designed for relatively calm coastal waters. I did experience significant weather once (25-30 kts winds on the nose and 6-7 feet swells), but never again, if I don't have to. My wife wanted to go out as it seemed "calm" in the harbor. To prove a point that she should verify the weather conditions outside the harbor, I went along. It was a very uncomfortable ride, but my point got across to her.

Why’d you put your wife in danger to prove a point?