Ferrous Metal Particles in Transmission fluid sample

[Flats]

2016 R25 SC with Volvo D3. Last summer was our first with the boat. When we had the boat winterized last fall, we had the engine oil and transmission oil tested. The engine oil came back fine , the transmission oil came back with the following, “ iron,lead PQ appear elevated. PQ indicates ferrous or Iron particles in the oil. All other wear element concentrations appear normal.”

The plan with the mechanic is to change the oil and filter as part of spring commissioning. We will sample again in the fall.

The transmission works fine. are there any other elements of the transmission you would suggest we check for abnormal wear.

Do you know if the transmission has a magnetic drain plug, which the analysis suggested checking if it it magnetic.

Equally important , does this sound like a reasonable plan? Is there anything else you would suggest?

Regards,

Bob Flaherty
Muirgen
RT 25 SC

 

[Scottfree]

Sounds like your transmission is breaking in nicely. If it works and doesn't make noise change the oil and check next year. Oil is much cheaper than exploratory mechanical work.

 

[knotflying]

I would not panic. Sometimes oil analysis can be inconsistent. Take another test as mentioned and monitor it. I sometimes wonder about the value of the oil analysis. I had a plane and saw the value there. You don’t want to lose and engine while flying. However, engine components in a plane engine are identifiable because each part has a different material. On a boat if it stops you get a tow. I also find it hard to believe that one would strip down an engine or transmission to figure out what is wrong. The cost would most likely be the same once a failure happens. Sometimes too much information can be unnerving.

 

[BB marine]

Bob, I can give you some in-site of my findings of this issue. I oil sampled all engine oil and reverse gear oil at every change. At the 326 hour mark I sent my reverse gear oil sample in the oil had 96 hours of use. I received the same report. I save my filters until I get my reports back so in the event of a bad report I can cut open the filter for inspection. I did cut the filter in two and used a magnet to pull any metal fragments from the element. There was a pile of fragments that was the size of a new eraser head on a pencil. I would post phots but I can't right now.

I did some research about this and the ZF reverse gear. This is not common but it does happen for many reasons it is mechanical and mechanical components can fail. Oil sampling can give false readings but can also point out issues. In my case it was not a false reading it was real. I went to a reputable marine transmission shop that rebuilds reverse gears and is an authorized ZF repair center. I asked him is it normal to have theses metal fragments in the filter. He said NO! We talked about the transmissions operation and my thoughts were the operation was flawless. He then asked if I was using an after market filter. My answer was NO. He said the after market look the same but do not filter as well as OEM and this can cause premature clutch and bearing failure if metal particulate is passing through the filter. He then asked my filter installation procedure. I said by the Volvo book!! drop it in and place the cover over it always replacing the o-rings. He told me that is wrong! The ZF procedure is to inspect the seal on the bottom of the filter housing in the transmission. confirm it is in good condition. Replace the sealing o-ring on the cover and fit the filter to it then install the the filter. This insures the seal at the top of the filter is made. If it is not a good seal metal particulate can bypass the filter and could cause damage to lubricated components and could lead to damage.

ZF instructions
Pull the filter element off the filler cap. Fit the new 'O' rings and push a new filter
element onto the filler cap.

Fit the filter and filler cap assembly and turn the Allen Key clockwise to fasten the filler cap.


Volvo instructions
Install the new filter (3) in the filter housing. Install the cover. Tightening torque: 5-8 Nm
Put the control lever in neutral. Start the engine and run it at 1500 rpm for a few minutes so that the reverse gear oil cooler fills with oil.
Stop the engine and check the oil level. Top up as needed


I took his advise. I installed as per the ZF manufactures procedure and no longer used the Volvo procedure. ZF is the manufacture of the gear. Volvo puts their name on it.

When I sold my C26 it had 650 trouble free hours on the reverse gear and I never had an issue with oil samples all were perfect. I never had an operational issue either.

My theory is you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good seal if you use the Volvo method of installing the filter. I had no issues except once. I found it because I oil sample. Many folks don't know if they are getting a good seal and how many time they did not get a good seal. I had done four oil changes in the 326 hours. Three came back good one came back bad. I missed on that one. I never missed again because I changed the installation procedure to the 100% it is making a good seal.

I know of a number of HS45AE reverse gear failures that are bolted to D3 Volvo engines that have failed. When I ask the question how was the filter installed I either hear I don't know or the way the Volvo manual states to install it. They may be a connection. I can't say for sure but I would advise using the ZF method.

I gave a detailed description of this during my Maintenance presentation at the South West Florida Ranger Tug /Cutwater Rendezvous. I tried to post it here but I could not do that so I repeated most of in in this post. Minus the photo's

Good Luck, I would change the oil and filter, pull a sample at 25 to 50 hours and send it in. If it comes back good continue to service the gear on a regular schedule and you should be fine.

 

[Ralf H]

Hi Bob,

Lots of good answers here so far. Bottom line is to be vigilant, but not to the point where it leads to analysis paralysis. Keep up with proper maintenance, learn from the experience of others, and if things just don't look right, consult with a service tech whom you trust. That will keep your boat in top shape and allow you to rest easier at night.

Cheers,

Ralf

 

[Gin]

Brian, a question. When you say stick withthe OEM filter, I assume you’re referring to the Volvo. The ZF OEM is also available from good online sources (like sbmar.com and FredWarner.net) and is usually 1/3 or so ($20) less. Safe to assume it would do nicely and that the suspect ones are third-party knockoffs?

Also, re your advice on how to install it (attach to cap first, then put into the housing and tighten), I never noticed the difference between the Volvo and ZF manuals. But sure enough, after scouring the ZF manual (not so user friendly because it is broken up by the many languages it is in), it reads: “Place new filter element onto the cover.” It then advises putting it in the housing and tightening the nut. In case that replacement method is a factor in how well the filter works, I’ll be doing that from now on. Thanks!

Gini

 

[BB marine]

Gini, I believe the Volvo oil filter is OEM ZF. I asked that question when talking to the repair center Federal Marine Transmission. He said "I don't know what Volvo uses but I know there is a big difference between the after market and the OEM". I looked at the Volvo and the ZF I could not see a difference. That's all I have to go from. There is no way Volvo would give that information! I get my filters from ZF now same price as Volvo.

 

[dgiles]

Regardless of Volvo or ZF installation procedure or whether there is a good seal or not, erasure size metal particles are not going to slip through....

 

[BB marine]

erasure size metal particles are not going to slip through....

A slight misunderstanding of what I posted.

There was a pile of fragments that was the size of a new eraser head on a pencil.

The small metal fragments pulled from the filter collected together all combined were the size of a eraser head. Most of the fragments were smaller than a granular of sand. Some slightly larger. If I had fragments the size of a eraser head I had major issues ! 😀

 

[Mr Ben]

Thanks for the clarification on those metal particles, I was wondering myself. This is on my list along with the coolant change and impellor. For those of us that decided to stay up here and shovel some snow can you advise where does the small o ring go exactly. The big fat o ring fits the cover of course. I guess i'm not clear on the placement of the small o ring. I looked at the Volvo book and really doesn't say much just that you need to do it. I cannot find any U Tube videos on this subject.

 

[dgiles]

erasure size metal particles are not going to slip through....

A slight misunderstanding of what I posted.

There was a pile of fragments that was the size of a new eraser head on a pencil.

The small metal fragments pulled from the filter collected together all combined were the size of a eraser head. Most of the fragments were smaller than a granular of sand. Some slightly larger. If I had fragments the size of a eraser head I had major issues ! 😀

Now that makes a bunch more sense when I re-read it!

 

[Gin]

Brian, thanks for your thoughts on the ZF OEM filter. I was told that Volvo repackages the ZF filter, and that’s at least consistent with your comparison of the two. I haven’t found the Volvo filter for much under $65, so the ZF around $45 seems worth considering.

Gini

 

[Flats]

Thank you all for taking time to respond. I learned a great deal from the responses. Brian thanks for the filter information
We will follow the procedure you provided, I will also cut the old filter and run a magnet over it to see what i get. For now the plan is regular maintenance and continued oil testing.

Regards

Bob Flaherty
Muirgen
Scituate, Ma

 

[BB marine]

For those of us that decided to stay up here and shovel some snow can you advise where does the small o ring go exactly. The big fat o ring fits the cover of course

Below is a copied image of the filter and o-ring arrangement. The small o-ring is installed on the lower section of the cover assembly.There is an o-ring groove. This ring along with the large o-ring should be replaced at each filter change. The small diameter o-ring is an important seal. It seals dirt and debris that is free floating and sediment that is in the reverse gear sump from bypassing the filter element. The o-ring will hold the filter in place if the filter is slid over the o-ring before installing the cover. Based on the ZF installation procedure, already talked about in this thread The cover and filter should be installed as an assembly. This insures proper sealing of the o-ring to the filter. If the filter is not installed this way there is a possibility of improper alignment of the o-ring to filter element. The photo showing the reverse gear illustrates the filter element and cover as one assembly when it is removed from the housing. This is what you would see if proper alignment was achieved when installing the element. This is also how it should be installed as one assembly to insure it is installed and sealed properly.
http://mccollister.info/tranny.jpg

 

[Mr Ben]

Brian thanks for the photo. I did this service mid summer sometime. I'm not sure what I did with the small o ring. Its been a while. I remember trying to figure out what it was for. The boat is in my pole barn. Once it warms up a little (14 right now) I will pull it apart and see what I did. Its easy enough to pull that cover off. I know I did it wrong in that I put the filter in the basket then put the cover on. It ran, shifted just fine the rest of the season. Lots for even for an old dog to learn with these boats.