Hard Starting Cummins

Just a thought, but when I was dealing with Randy Day from Cummins N.W. and I was having so much trouble trying to find the oil filter for the "new Cummins model" I asked Randy what other boat manufactures were using these same engines, and he said that they put the same engine in the Trophy boats that have the optional diesel engine and that the only difference was that they have an outdrive instaed if being an inboard. So what kind of problems have they had with this same engine? I'm sure there have been some issues for them and I understand that there are hundredes of these Trophys built annualy with the Cummins engines, so there are more of them out there with potentially the same problem.

Just a thought and maybe a different direction to look for answers...

John
 
Removed the engine ground strap bolt and the large flat washer remained stuck on the engine. Ohm meter indicated that the large flat washer was not grounded due to a healthy coat of white paint on the engine. Procured a 60" length #2 gauge battery wire that runs from the engine start battery and the cables lug is directly grounded to the engine after removing the paint, next comes the grounding strap that was previously installed, flat ss washer, ss lock washer and steel bolt (the original sequence was flat washer, lock washer, grounding strap, and then the underside of the bolt). My bolt was painted entirely with a zinc colored paint, so I rotary wire brushed the threads and the underside of the bolt before reinstalling it.
Engine took 3± seconds to start after sitting for 2¼ days. I think the jury is still out on this one... Am awaiting to have a new ECM installed.
Henry
 
It was 7+ days since the last start-up, lowered Little Toot into the water and the engine fired up within one second! Now, after having added a 2 gauge grounding wire directly from the starting battery to the engine ground bolt, I'm beginning to think that Andrew's idea that a poor engine ground might be a possible cause for the long cranking time to get the engine started. I wonder if the ECM gets its +12V from the start battery or the house battery via Mercury's SmartCraft? The ECM is probably grounded to the engine and relies upon the engine ground strap for its previously poor -12V connection (see my posts above concerning engine grounding). I wonder if there is a possibility for the ECM to momentarily drop out due to low voltage when the starter engages and causes a voltage drop on the start battery? This happened on my previous boat that utilized 8D batteries for both engine start and house. Every time I would start the port engine, the Furuno NavNet would drop out and have to go through its restart sequence.

It would be nice if Cummins could come up with a definitive answer as to what is causing this problem.

Henry
 
I've been watching this thread for awhile. I was (and still am) a huge fan of the R-25, on two recent occasions I almost bought one. But, both times I wanted the Yanmar engine.

In the '60s and '70s the automotive industry introduced engines with stricter emission controls and then tried to improve those controls. The engines started and ran so poorly I didn't buy a new car for about ten years. They finally got the bugs out. In 1996, I bought a new BMW twin cylinder motorcycle that was fuel injected, computer controlled. They'd had this basic control system for several years with various levels of surging, which they denied. I had owned two of their four and three cylinder models without experiencing any surging. The 1996 was horrible. I've since owned a 2002 twin and a 2003 ( 4 cyl.) that ran great, a 2004 twin (horrible surging, sold it within a month), another 2004 twin that ran beautifully and now have a 2000 twin that has some surging, but I can live with it. Even though BMW claimed no surging, they introduced performance improvements such as adding a second spark plug to the twin engines.

I spent twelve years working with jet engines, rocket engines and their support equipment. I also taught engine maintenance, trouble shooting and aircraft and engine accident investigation. I've seen a lot of strange engine conditions, both starting and running and heard many weird factory explanations. Fortunately, they always seemed to come up with something that finally worked.

Andrew is approaching this issue the right way. Get the grounding problems (if any) taken care of and then If there are control problems (ECM), it should become obvious. Electrical power problems can be subtle; we used constant speed drive units to power alternators to insure an even power supply.

I'm wondering if these new common rail diesels are going thru development issues. Have any of you heard of similar issues with other new common rail engines from other manufacturers?

Gene
 
We are using the new Yanmar with the Exact same setup without a single issue. They start first crank just like all of the other Yanmars did.

I have been in touch with the main Cummins factory and the President of Cummin USA. They have all agreed this is an ECM problem. They have a service bulletin in legal right now waiting to get it approved to get it to every cummins dealer in the US. For anyone that sent me an email saying they have the start issue, I have forwarded all of your information to Cummins, and they promised me they would call each and every one.

The Cummins engines run so dang good if we can get past this start issue. I am for the first time feeling good about this getting fixed. It was so intermitten that it was extremely tough for us to put our hands on. Hang in there as its in process of getting fixed asap!
 
Andrew, Count the Lucky fin as a hard starter as well. Must have went through 8 to 10 cycles the other day.
captd
 
Andrew - thank you for staying on top of this. We all value your advocacy and appreciate the efforts of the entire Ranger crew. It's great to be your customer.
 
Capt D,

Yours will be tough while you are on the move. When you are going to be settled for a bit please let me know and I will get cummins to get a new ECM and re-programming.

Bruce,

Thanks for the great compliments! Im just glad I have such patient customers! 😀
 
Andrew,

I am taking delivery of hull 142 likely next week. Have the ECM's in the newest batch of Cummins been updated? Would like to solve this potential problem before it occurs if possible.

Thanks, Dave
 
henrym":wypisr0h said:
It was 7+ days since the last start-up, lowered Little Toot into the water and the engine fired up within one second! Now, after having added a 2 gauge grounding wire directly from the starting battery to the engine ground bolt, I'm beginning to think that Andrew's idea that a poor engine ground might be a possible cause for the long cranking time to get the engine started. I wonder if the ECM gets its +12V from the start battery or the house battery via Mercury's SmartCraft? The ECM is probably grounded to the engine and relies upon the engine ground strap for its previously poor -12V connection (see my posts above concerning engine grounding). I wonder if there is a possibility for the ECM to momentarily drop out due to low voltage when the starter engages and causes a voltage drop on the start battery? This happened on my previous boat that utilized 8D batteries for both engine start and house. Every time I would start the port engine, the Furuno NavNet would drop out and have to go through its restart sequence.

It would be nice if Cummins could come up with a definitive answer as to what is causing this problem.

Henry
Click to expand...

I don't think it's possible to have a bad ground if the starter works fine.
 
Well, I sent three emails to the Cummins rep someone mentioned in an above post - and not even a reply so far!
 
They will call you Mike. They have your info. Will check in with them on Monday.
 
Hey thanks Andrew - I'll look for them to contact me.
 
Np,

They were supposed to call everyone on my list on Thursday of last week but now I find out that did not happen? I will follow up once again with Cummins on Monday.
 
I've been having the start up issue for the past couple months. No need to go into details, as it's all been said in prior posts. As most of you know, Andrew gets the job done and has the support of John, Dave, and Jeff behind him. When it comes to customer satisfaction, Ranger is top of the class.

So, Andrew, thanks for all of the help. I know this will be fixed soon.

Tim
 
Been following this thread for weeks, and, yes, I have a Cummins 150 that is slow to start most mornings. Usually on the 5th or 6th complete cycle with the ignition, it fires up fine, after releasing a small cloud of white smoke (we have a Pope !!) What I would like to add, here, is that my Cummins has never, in almost 200 hours of running time, ever let me down. Whether I'm anchored out, whether I have stored the boat on the trailer and launched a month later, whether I've been at 6000 ft or sea level, after those few cranks, it DOES fire up, and it does run fine with the Ranger 25.
So, while we'd all like to have our engines start on the first crank, especially while others are looking and listening to us fire up, and while no one wants to send out a cloud of white smoke from the Vatican, each time, still and all, it appears to be a great engine and runs fine, with this one exception of being "hard starting."
 
bluebayou":2oera9mu said:
Been following this thread for weeks, and, yes, I have a Cummins 150 that is slow to start most mornings. Usually on the 5th or 6th complete cycle with the ignition, it fires up fine, after releasing a small cloud of white smoke (we have a Pope !!) What I would like to add, here, is that my Cummins has never, in almost 200 hours of running time, ever let me down. Whether I'm anchored out, whether I have stored the boat on the trailer and launched a month later, whether I've been at 6000 ft or sea level, after those few cranks, it DOES fire up, and it does run fine with the Ranger 25.
So, while we'd all like to have our engines start on the first crank, especially while others are looking and listening to us fire up, and while no one wants to send out a cloud of white smoke from the Vatican, each time, still and all, it appears to be a great engine and runs fine, with this one exception of being "hard starting."
Click to expand...

So does my lawn mower . . . . . . :mrgreen:
 
Not a Ranger owner - yet (tempt me with a great offer, I dare you)... But, I have been recently starting a 300 hp Cummings on an American Tug... Starts instantly no matter what... So it is not Cummings engines per se that is the problem.. Just because it cranks does not mean there is not a problem at the electronics with voltage drops...
In my wasted youth I was an electronics 'expert' on industrial automation... From long experience I can tell you that paint under the grounding straps is a universal problem - and causes electronics techs to snatch themselves bald by age 21...
Posters above have described cleaning the ground wire connections of paint, etc.. After cleaning them to bright metal put on a smear of Dow Corning DC-4 electrical sealant and then assemble and tighten.. This protects the connection from oxidation and corrosion... I have used this stuff for decades on industrial machines, boats, and my airplane...

If cleaning the ground straps and changing the ECM doesn't help, before giving up run a temporary jumper from the positive pole of the start battery direct to the + lead of the ECM... It does not take much voltage drop or noise on the + lead to confuse electronics... Often times a direct + lead that does not go anywhere else will stabilize the ECM voltage under the starting conditions where the battery voltage is dropping significantly at the engine, while cranking...

denny
 
Has anyone who is dealing with this issue heard from the folks at Cummins NW? My experience has been you need to call them, more than once, to make contact. That is still the case for me.

Cheers
 
dr. o,

You've just added to my education. I hadn't even considered that the ECM was just another piece of electronics and is subject to the same issues the radars, chartplotters, etc. are subject to when starting an engine. I wonder if the manufacturer has ever considered using a separate, unfettered/uncluttered electrical supply to the ECM.

I don't have the Cummins engine in question. But, my wife (the Admiral?) has said if I don't like my R-21 EC I'm free to get a R-25. So, I'm keeping up on things. 😉

Gene
 
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