Hard Starting Cummins

[henrym]

By the way, I checked the continuity on my ground to the engine and its fine!

I don't mean to go on about the QSD's possible inadequate (poor) grounding. But, you need a bit more than just continuity when the engine is cranking over. It is the quality of the ground that will prevent a voltage drop at the engine when the starter is engaged.
Henry

 

[Andrew Custis]

Let me set this straight. When we were talking grounding issue we were trying to eliminate any possibilities of grounding because it had been brought up before. This is not an issue and has never been other then a "loose ground."

We still have to get prices worked out but we have not made a complete switch away from Cummins. Tom Ray is correct about us offering it still. I personally love that engine other then the parts pricing and availability. Cummins is well aware of us selling Yanmars and they are going to do whatever it takes to get us to start selling them again. First thing that will change our decision is going to be about pricing, now that we have the starting issue solved. The reason we stopped selling them in the first place was not due to parts pricing or starting issues. The main reason was due to a price increase of engines that we would have had to pass on to the customers which we could not justify doing. Cummins is also working on that.

The new ECM has fixed every start issue we have had, now that they have the correct software tool to re-program the injectors. We did get lucky on one boat locally that starts everytime and I think was luck of the draw. The reason this became confusing as to whether it was a ground or ECM is because of the feedback we were receiving. We replace an ECM on one boat and it works great. Replace another on a different boat and it makes no difference. It all came down to the correct software and ECM combination.

 

[JTREV]

Andrew,

You say that you "love that engine" and I do love my Cummins too. I was wondering in your view, what it is that makes the Cummins stand out above the rest?

I have not been in an R25 with the Yanmar 110 or 150 so I don't know what the noise level, accelleration, smoothness, etc. is like with that engine. My Cummins performs great and has not had the starting issue as of yet. It has been sitting for 4+ months in dry storage and I may know soon if I have the starting problem. I will prime the fuel filter before attempting to start it because I'm sure it has lost its prime by now. Maybe this weekend, I'll keep you posted how it starts after sitting for that long.

April 19th and RUBY-ANN will be 1 year old!

John

 

[IdleUp]

Let me set this straight. When we were talking grounding issue we were trying to eliminate any possibilities of grounding because it had been brought up before. This is not an issue and has never been other then a "loose ground."

We still have to get prices worked out but we have not made a complete switch away from Cummins. Tom Ray is correct about us offering it still. I personally love that engine other then the parts pricing and availability. Cummins is well aware of us selling Yanmars and they are going to do whatever it takes to get us to start selling them again. First thing that will change our decision is going to be about pricing, now that we have the starting issue solved. The reason we stopped selling them in the first place was not due to parts pricing or starting issues. The main reason was due to a price increase of engines that we would have had to pass on to the customers which we could not justify doing. Cummins is also working on that.

The new ECM has fixed every start issue we have had, now that they have the correct software tool to re-program the injectors. We did get lucky on one boat locally that starts everytime and I think was luck of the draw. The reason this became confusing as to whether it was a ground or ECM is because of the feedback we were receiving. We replace an ECM on one boat and it works great. Replace another on a different boat and it makes no difference. It all came down to the correct software and ECM combination.

Andrew,

Hello - I got a few calls from Cummins but that's as far as it got . . .

 

[sparky]

IdleUp
I know you are far out there in western Virginia, but the Cummins dealer in Chesapeake had our ECM replaced and the boat up and running in no time - once the whole issue was figured out. Do you have a closer Cummins dealer? If not, drag her back here and we'll put you in touch.

Sparky
Virginia Beach, VA

 

[Tom Ray]

Andrew,

You say that you "love that engine" and I do love my Cummins too. I was wondering in your view, what it is that makes the Cummins stand out above the rest?

I have not been in an R25 with the Yanmar 110 or 150 so I don't know what the noise level, accelleration, smoothness, etc. is like with that engine.

I have tried the Cummins 150 and the Yanmar 150. The biggest differences I noted were that Cummins did a better job of containing the whine of the turbo, and I like the SmartCraft display more than the Yanmar one. It remains to be seen which one holds up better over time and costs least to maintain, but Cummins is not off to a great start on that one. 🙁

 

[dencarst]

After going through 3 ECM units the boat now starts on the first throw now. I would like to thank
Stan Babcock from Cummins NW and Andrew Custis from Ranger Tugs.

 

[NorthernFocus]

Is there a way to tell by looking at the hardware whether a unit has the upgraded/reprogrammed part? I'm the third owner of my boat, hull number 91, and the first owner still had it during the timeframe that this issue was being worked. I suspect it was never dealt with. I've only started it on the trailer to-date and it is definately difficult to start.

 

[tugnnaweigh]

The information is on a sticker on the body of the ECM. There's lots of information and I believe a bar code; it can be difficult to interpret. Mine had DOM (date of manufacture) followed by 2012, this, in a 2008 boat. Also, look for HP (horse power) followed by hopefully 150. These ECMs can rate this powerplant at 120, 130, 150 and I believe 180 horse power.
Also, on the hard start issue, if you want to know the all important voltage that's present during cranking, set the battery monitor meter up by the throttle on the cranking battery ( battery number one I believe) and see how much the battery drops in voltage during cranking. This is the same type of thing shops do to batteries to test if they are faulty, monitoring voltage drop during a big draw. I like to see the volts staying above 11. something, perhaps other, more knowledgeable folks will chime in on this voltage. Having no ignition system and firing by compression, you have to spin a diesel pretty good to start it. Hope this helps!

 

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks. That is exactly the type of information I was hoping for. One more minor detail. Exactly what/where is the ECM? Is it on the engine or in the "black box" (in the starboard lazarette on my boat)?

I sure miss the old mechanically controlled naturally aspirated diesel engine :cry:

 

[AKDAVE]

Dan,

The ECM is on the port side of the engine. I had my ECM replaced by Northwest Cummins when the boat was new in 2009 and it went from a near impossible start to an easy start. More of an issue now as Cummins doesn't support the engine anymore. It's supported (supposedly) by Mercruiser, though I have not had great luck.

Ranger Tugs does sell the routine maintenance parts (belts, filters, ect.) direct. Richard in their parts department can handle this

 

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks, Dave. First order of business is to figure out if I have an issue. I'll see if I can get at the thing to read the info.

 

[Levitation]

I am also a victim of the hard starting Mercruiser-Cummins-Bosch abortion. I bought my boat second hand and less than a year old
Unknown to me (oblivious newbie) the previous owner did not have the ECM replaced under warranty when he should have. Because we stored the boat for the first year (busy scratching up the money to pay for it) by the time I found out there was starting problem Bosch / Cummins / Mercruiser had divorced (not amicably) and I had no warranty coverage. Andrew tried to get me help but they all just shrugged and pointed at the next guy to their right.

It cost me over $2000 to have the ECM replaced by an incompetent mechanic at a Cummins dealership that has the QSD certification on the wall but is clueless (I hope they did not pay more then ten bucks for that piece of paper).
They were so incompetent that by the time they finally "borrowed" an engine diagnostic scanner from Cummins (that took three weeks because there was only one for all the dealers in a half dozen states in the Great Lakes Region) they could not figure out how to plug it in (god's truth).
I had to leave my office in the middle of the day. Drive 24 miles to the dealer. Climb into the boat and in one second snatch up the socket on the engine harness tucked behind the box and wave it in the mechanics face.
His reply?
"Well the manual says plug it into the BOX and there is no socket on front of the box."
(picture me slowly banging my forehead against the gunnel)
They took the majority of the Michigan boating season working on it. When I finally got it back I just put the boat away for the winter. A year of boating gone.

Long story short - it starts 'better' now (relative term as it wasn't starting when I took it to the dealer) but much of the time it does not start without going through the cranking cycle dance (sigh)
Once running it is a wonderful engine, quiet, powerful, utterly reliable - just don't shut it off :mrgreen:

And yes, to answer all the questioners - I have gone over every power connection (even bolted extra jumpers across the ground straps, etc.) , checked the fuel system for leaks, yadda, yadda
It IS the Bosch ECM. There is a design flaw.

 

[NorthernFocus]

Can anyone tell from the following pic of the ECM label whether this is the updated version? The boat has an '08 hull number and the date on the label is March 12, 2009(in Hungary the first no.in the date is year). That seems to be the timeframe in the earlier posts in this thread when the repairs were being done so hopefully this one was replaced.

 

[hughesdave123]

What really sucks is that once this was identified , that all boats with this module on it owners were not contacted so this could be fixed while their boats were under warranty .
I kept wondering why it took forever to get my 25 2008 to start first time ( like 25 turns on the key) but after the first start everything is ok for the day . Looks to be the same issue , now I'm SOL trying to find someone to help me out.

 

[hughesdave123]

What really sucks is that once this was identified , that all boats with this module on it owners were not contacted so this could be fixed while their boats were under warranty .
I kept wondering why it took forever to get my 25 2008 to start first time ( like 25 turns on the key) but after the first start everything is ok for the day . Looks to be the same issue , now I'm SOL trying to find someone to help me out.

Update , my Maryland repair center said to bring the ECM there and they will determine if its faulty. they didn't say what the cost will be.

 

[Levitation]

I was one of the owners that got stung by the hard starting - (2nd owner) where the first owner did not have the ECM replaced and I had no way of knowing about the issue.
It cost me $2000
Sorry

Before you hand the dealer a blank check set a dollar limit on his taking a "look/see"
I could recount the whole horror story again, but I won't :mrgreen:

 

[hughesdave123]

Actually , After speaking with Cummins they put me in touch with a local Mercruiser tech. They said the will reflash the ECM with the correct software which will fix the issue for free.

The Mercruiser guy was awesome ! he shed a lot of light on the problem with the ECM and how to get around the issue till they flash it. then also told me not to call it a cummins or a mercruser engine when talking to service people because its actually a fiat/Chrysler engine from Italy built by the same people making the new jeep diesel engines . Just call it a 2.0 diesel when speaking to techs , so they don't get confused. Also the serial # on the engine block is under the step on the front of the engine. This serial # only works with Mercruiser , Cummins has no record of these serials.

Temp fix for anyone that still has the "Cummins engine" go to the engine compartment , there is a primer button on the fuel filter , pump that until all the squishiness is gone and its pretty tight ( don't over pump) then go start the engine = Vrooom .

The last thing he told me is that the engine can be upgraded to the 170 HP setting , but that would require a New ECM. and the engine is perfectly fine running at 170 hp. I'm tempted to buy the upgrade , but I wonder if 20 hp would make that much difference.

 

[NorthernFocus]

Update on this topic. In spite of having the updated ECM, my engine has continued to have intermittent episodes of starting difficulty. The only seeming consistency has been that the longer it has been shut down the more difficult it is to start. In spite of spinning (apparently) fine, it doesn't like to start. Well if a diesel spins and gets fuel and air, it has to run. The only way to shut one down is to deprive it of fuel. So I assumed that my fuel system has been draining down, therefore the longer it's been down, the more drain down, the harder to start. Seemed logical.

While perusing the engine manual prior to commissioning this spring, I skimmed through some of the descriptions of the control system. During the start sequence, the ECM monitors various parameters and when it is satisfied it electronically opens the injectors to start the engine. Two of the parameters monitored are crank rpm and fuel pressure. Well clearly if the fuel system is draining down then fuel pressure could be the issue. But I've had no evident fuel leaks and the priming pump firms up after just a couple of strokes. Nothing to really indicate air ingress. A mystery...

But another little tidbit that I noticed while flipping through the manual was the recommended specs for the starting battery, namely a minimum of 850CCA. The battery installed in my boat by the previous owner, though brand new, is a "marine dual purpose" with 650CCA. Hmmmm. Keep in mind that computers are binary. If a value of x is required, x minus 0.00001 is a fail. Maybe fuel isn't the problem at all. Maybe the engine just isn't spinning fast enough to satisfy the ECM. So with all batteries fully charged, I closed the parallel switch with the house batteries. After months of being shut down over the winter, the engine started on the third try (last season after about eight tries I finally used starting fluid to get it going). Subsequent starts with the batteries in parallel fired off on the first try every time, regardless of whether down for 3 hours or 3 days. Voila.

Unfortunately, when out on the water and no generator, with typical usage it wouldn't be prudent to rely on the house bank for starting assist in the mornings. But rather than simply replacing the starting batt with one that has better starting characteristics, I added another and now have a parallel bank for starting. Problem solved. A couple dozen starts later it hasn't skipped a beat.

As I read all of the history described on this issue there seemed to be a lot of variability with this problem. I suspect that battery choice, battery health/maintenance, condition of electrical connections, etc. are some of the more variable aspects on these (and all) boats. Just sayin'....

 

[hughesdave123]

Ohh yea, I'm gonna try this , so if I put in parallel , its starts ? I wouldn't kleep it that way , only to start it after she been sitting for a while .