Hazardous AC Panel Wiring on 2016 Cutwater 24

[gsc3]

While investigating problems using the ProMariner TruePower 3000 Inverter on our 2016 Cutwater 24 (Hull ID US-FLMC245L516) I found that the boat’s Blue Seas AC panel was not wired correctly. Neither SHORE nor INVERTER outputs went through the 30A breakers. The SHORE and INVERTER outputs were hardwired together, which is dangerous for putting 110V on the shore power cable from the inverter, and for putting 110V on the inverter output from the shore power cable. I rewired the AC panel as shown for the generic Shore Power / Inverter panels on the Blue Seas website. I urge other Cutwater 24 owners with inverters and Blue Seas AC panels to have a qualified ABYC technician check the AC panel for wiring errors like those I found, and to rewire the panel if needed. I have photos and diagrams for both “before” and “after” wiring, which I will be happy to provide by email.

Slade Cargill, 2016 Cutwater 24 "Sojourner", Longboat Key, FL

 

[BB marine]

Thank you Slade for posting. TugNuts this is something that probably should not be taken lightly. Slade is the author of the book.
Electric Shock Drowning:
Causes and Prevention

It seems like many post have to do with electrical issues onboard Rangers and Cutwaters. Electricity and water do not mix well. There are many electrical components installed in our boats. There is no issue with that ,in fact we all appreciate the amenities. The component installs must meet ABYC and NMMA recommendations and guidelines. As with all systems installed the final inspection at the factory should make sure all components are installed properly, wired properly, and be inspected throughly. The highest emphasis on correct electrical wiring and connections. I have posted many issues that I have found in the wiring of my C26. Components not wired (CO detector) installed but never wired. This passed factory inspections and dealer prep inspections. I found the issue after owning the boat for a year (using it for 3 months) testing the CO detector to find it had never been wired. I had loose connections to shore power receptacle. Burned wires at the AC panel because of loose connections, along with many other small issues that could potentially be larger issues if not found. I seem to be always finding something that makes me think my boat was built on Friday afternoon. Actually its better now than the day we took delivery. Between me finding issues or other Tug and Cut owners posting issues they found. I then start inspecting and if needed repairing what they found. My boat is better today than when new.

Its a boat, people build boats, people make mistakes, Hopefully a reputable manufacture has a good QC policy and most issues are resolved before the boat leaves. I would assume this is the case with Fluid Motion. One advantage we as Tug and Cut owners have is a good forum. When I post an issue I will comment that Fluid Motion needs to do a better job with QC and many others do too. I belief that the managers from Fluid Motion read the comments and use this information to continue to improve QC. I also hope that when a member post something as Slade did the members don't just read it. Use the information and investigate. If it was done to one boat I believe it was done to another. I would inspect your AC power panel and confirm the double throw breakers are functioning properly for Shore Power and inverter. If there is a discrepancy contact an ABYC certified electrician to evaluate.

 

[ixlr8]

Its a boat, people build boats, people make mistakes, Hopefully a reputable manufacture has a good QC policy and most issues are resolved before the boat leaves. I would assume this is the case with Fluid Motion. When I post an issue I will comment that Fluid Motion needs to do a better job with QC and many others do too. I belief that the managers from Fluid Motion read the comments and use this information to continue to improve QC.

I would like to believe that FM managers read these posts and do something to improve QC. I know dealers provide feedback based on issues they have to fix. BUT as I look at newer boats than mine, and talking with several dealers, it is obvious FM continues to make the same mistakes over and over again. My boat would NOT pass an ABYC electrical or plumbing inspection at time of delivery, still wouldn't, but I am working on making it better.

 

[BB marine]

I would like to believe that FM managers read these posts and do something to improve QC. I know dealers provide feedback based on issues they have to fix. BUT as I look at newer boats than mine, and talking with several dealers, it is obvious FM continues to make the same mistakes over and over again. My boat would NOT pass an ABYC electrical or plumbing inspection at time of delivery, still wouldn't, but I am working on making it better.

In a quest to have Fluid Motion look into the engine compartment temperatures I was experiencing because of the lack of ventilation near the engine intake. The cause was obvious. The engine located under the pilot house deck with tight clearances in the engine intake area. The air boxed in a corner next to a Turbo that generates 900 F heat with a metal shield over it. The only solution to reduce the heat is the shield. The only movement of this hot air is into the engine intake. I contacted BoatUS consumer protection. I sent them issues that I experienced, non ABYC compliant which included the ventilation system along with electrical and a few other questionable findings. Boat US contacted a Representative of the NMMA. This person looked at my data and complaints and talked to John Livingston. Boat US and NMMA asked Mr. Livingston to have a Fluid Motion member onboard along with a ABYC surveyor and do a Sea Trial to confirm my data. NMMA said the temperatures were not compliant but the discrepancy could be how and where I was getting the temperature numbers. I was in agreement with this knowing I was getting the temperatures 6" from the intake. Mr Livingston refused. He stated no one has ever complained about this before he wasn't going to change it now.

I asked the Boat US representative are there any documentation of complaints about Fluid Motion's lack of ABYC compliancy? The answer was no. I asked the Boat US representative if you did would the results be the same as I received. She said the NMMA can only advise they can not make the manufacture build the boat compliant to the ABYC and NMMA "RECOMMENDATIONS" If the boat manufacturer pays for the sticker ( NMMA certified) the boat manufacture can put it on the boat. If NMMA received several complaints about Electrical, Plumbing, Engine installation, construction , fuel systems ...... The NMMA will review the manufactures build procedures. The only compliancy that a manufacture has to be compliant to is USCG requirements. It is up to the consumer to report non compliant ABYC build procedures.

As a consumer purchasing a quality boat Ranger or Cutwater the expectation would be the build meets or exceeds the ABYC and NMMA RECOMMENDATIONS. It seems in reading many post here on TugNuts that the electrical configurations are all over the place. The use of different components but the same wiring configuration or different configurations to fix one issue can cause another. Unfortunately one size does not fit all when it comes to electrical. If you have non licensed, noncertified ABYC electrician wiring a boat there are going to be issues. Especially when the productions are high. It is hard for one or two QC employees to find all the issues. The results are the findings of Slade, ixlr8, myself and many other Tug and Cut owners that are DIY owners that find the issues or service technicians at dealerships for the non DIY's. One wire in the wrong place could be Hazardous when on or in the water. The advantage we have is a forum to post the issues found and warn others of the issues. This helps other owners and as stated before should help the Ralf, Andrew, Kevin and the rest customer service advisors in addressing the issues before the boats leave the facility. Think of TugNuts as being the QC. This works if Fluid Motions keeps an open mind.

If you are having any electrical discrepancies don't over look them. Make sure all systems are functioning as the manufactures state they should. If you don't have a manual research it online. If you are not a DIY have a ABYC certified electrician look at it and review and troubleshoot . We have boats with complex electrical systems make sure they are installed properly.

 

[ksmoth62]

Have recently sold our sailboat and for the past year seriously considering on buying a Ranger Tug. I have enjoyed reading the articles on this site which appear valuable for owners and prospective buyers alike. This however seems to be a rather serious issue. I have been having some difficulty deciding between a classic and a new Ranger with outboard. Either way looks like a complete survey would be in order. Thanks.

 

[Heronboy]

This post couldn’t be more timely. I am in SW Florida this week to look after my folks house and address some needed issues here since my Dad passed. I took some time this morning to also address issues on his boat, a 2018 31 CB. Due to the lovely FL heat and humidity, I decided to run the air while working on the boat. A few hours later, the generator is finally running and it should be cool enough to work in the cabin by dinner. :twisted:

While waiting for that, I found my Dad’s Problems list for the boat. Below is that combined with my own from today.

1. Boat delivered without properly working steering. Traced to loose hose fittings after several months. Fixed by dealer, but problem reappeared in March 2020.
2. Sonar does not work consistently. Traced to poorly installed hull mount that allows antifreeze to leak. Not repaired.
3. Despite SW FL sun and solar panel being free of shadow while docked on lift, one of the batteries was run down to 4v winter of 2019/2020. Unknown cause, not repaired.
4. High water alarm in bilge does not work. Not repaired.
5. Aft bilge pump failed shortly after delivery. Traced to construction debris jamming impeller, overheating. Replaced by owner. Replacement failed winter 2019/2020. Not repaired.
6. Garmin autopilot instrument on CB failed winter 2019. Replaced by Garmin.
7. Nav lights miswired, cannot be fully turned on from CB, only lower station. Not repaired.
8. One of the wiper motors failed. Discussion with FM reveals interior headliner of cabin must be removed to replace. Not repaired.
9. Fuel cannot be added without major spillage despite taking all precautions. Placement of vent hose prevents addition of Racor Lifeguard. Not repaired.
10. Generator refused to start today, acted as if battery power to it was cut off, despite tests showing battery power was good. Finally started after “exercising” all switches on the generator mounted panel several times. Corrosion?
11. Fresh water pump noisy and has variable pressure and engagement despite being a single speed pump with a full tank, even under constant demand . To be replaced out of an abundance of caution.
12. Beige colored gel coat band highly sun faded, darker Hull blue in good shape. Improper mixing of gel coat?. Not yet addressed.

Needless to say, I’m not impressed with the boat I inherited. Especially since it has such low hours. And it sounds like my passel of woes is not an uncommon experience. Those who have suggested QA is lacking at FM, likely due to their success, are probably on to something. Sticking my nose into more and more nooks and crannies reveals evidence of hurried assembly.

Bob

 

[scross]

It is always money well spent to have a comprehensive survey of a used boat completed prior to purchase. Both a drive train survey as well as a detailed systems survey with sea trial. I have done both and would do so again even if the boat I was looking at was just a few months old!
That said, the wiring problems identified in this thread are both serious and not of a nature likely to be caught during a normal survey. Compounding this problem is some boat builders practice of “continuous improvement” in the building process and in component selection that means there’s almost no two boats that are built exactly the same as they exit the factory. Add a growing production volume with new inexperienced or under qualified production staff and mistakes can and will happen.
Some boat builders seem to have a philosophy of “just get them out the factory door, we will fix them later in the field.” This approach may be just fine for cosmetic issues like a rip in a seat cushion but not for serious hidden issues like bad electrical wiring.
With the surprising (to me at least) nationwide boom in boat sales in this summer of Covid 19 there’s not much incentive for boat builders to boost up QA staff with customers lined up and wallets wide open. Just my opinion.

 

[ixlr8]

My question is, how many boat owners would know if their boats actually met ABYC and/or NMMA guidelines?? I worked for Sabre Yachts and they were sticklers for meeting/exceeding ABYC and NMMA standards. That is where I learned what the standards are and how I know my boat does NOT meet those standards. I would bet most boat owners would not have a clue, and couldn't tell, if their boats actually met ABYC/NMMA standards, or not. They assume since the sticker is on the boat that it meets the standards. Which is why almost nobody complains when their boat doesn't meet the standards.
As SCROSS said; Some boat builders seem to have a philosophy of “just get them out the factory door, we will fix them later in the field.” Based on my discussions with some dealers, I fell this is exactly the way FM handles their QC issues. Which sucks for the dealers as I was given the impression that they are stuck with the costs of repairs/corrections.

 

[FWTMD]

1) Thank you Brian. Again.

2) Give Fluid credit for one small thing. I expected this thread to be pulled or locked by now. That the thread is still open is a good sign they are more willing to "own it" than it might appear.

3) Late model used might be the best bet. Some kinks will have been worked out by the prior frustrated owner. The discount from new cost would pay for the cost to bring the boat to proper spec.

4) Many still like the design. That's what is selling them.

 

[BB marine]

2) Give Fluid credit for one small thing. I expected this thread to be pulled or locked by now. That the thread is still open is a good sign they are more willing to "own it" than it might appear.

I do and I believe most give Fluid Motion credit. They follow and support this forum. I also give them credit for building a line of awesome boats. I like my boat. I'm also disappointed with issues I experienced and the many issues that others experienced and posted. Don't take it as a complaint take it as a critique. If the company owns it and improves issues in future builds and helps owners through build issues after delivery that is all that can be asked. The major point of this thread was and still is to inform Cutwater owners of the issue that Slade experienced. A serious electrical issue in the factory wiring.A Simple mistake but as Slade described it Hazardous.

On a side note I agree a survey of a new or used boat by a good ABYC (SAMS) Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors is money well spent before taking delivery.

 

[Andrew Custis]

Hello Slade,

I would like to confirm one thing here. Is this a 3000 watt inverter installed on the boat? If so, this is not something we wired in so I am guessing it was done by a dealer or prior owner if you are not the original owner. We have always used a 1500 or 2000 watt inverter and to my knowledge, we always ran through a breaker on the panel or a selector switch.

Thanks Slade,

 

[gsc3]

Andrew,
I bought this Cutwater "new" from Emile Petro, Edgewater Yacht Sales, 7/23/16, hull ID US-FML C2454L516, with the Inverter included. I believed that the inverter was factory installed. Emile could confirm this. The only add-on that I got from Edgewater Yacht Sales was a Garmin Radar. The sales invoice lists only "Inverter" without model number, but when I found the inverter hidden at the rear of the cave, I saw that it was a model 3000. Hope this helps sort out how the wiring errors occurred. . . Slade

 

[Wee Venture]

FWIW, we purchased our R-31 new in 2017 directly from the factory. It came supplied with a 2000 watt inverter. There was no option for a 3000 watt.

 

[Century Bay]

It seems that anyone who has an FM boat and has not experienced serious issues with quality should count themselves very lucky. Some of these problems are serious and could kill you.
Many of the owners are hands on, experienced and with a lot of boating knowledge. This is good because the Cutwater is more like a "kit Boat" that you build or should I say rebuild yourself.
I bought a new one in 2018 and have less than 3 tanks of fuel through it due to needed repairs and adjustments. I believe the boat can be made safe and functional with enough time and frustration but who needs that!
I bought the boat based on input from a friend who was afraid to own up to all the problems he had experienced until later. He regrets not telling me and regrets he ever bought one. I will not regret telling anyone who reads this not to buy one of these just because you like what it looks like unless all you want to do is look at it for a few years.
Get another boat and go out and enjoy yourself!

 

[scross]

Another option is to buy a used boat that was owned by a knowledgeable owner and who fixed issues and made smart functional improvements to the boat. I keep being impressed by the work first owner of our boat, a retired Marine Colonel, did to get things set up and working right!

Yeah, we have had switches fail, a hose installed improperly by former owner’s mechanic, bad upholstery, and an autopilot fuse holder fail. We also have had repairs that needed to be redone due to boatyard mechanic’s errors who we hired. But in general in, over five years of ownership our maintenance issues have been for expected periodic service and from the understandable wear and tear after 11 years on the water.

Thank you Colonel! Rest In Peace! We love our boat and appreciate the love you put into it!

 

[Wee Venture]

Maybe my expectations are too low (but I don’t think so)...

I met my wife in high school and her father was an avid boater. (He was also an airline pilot for Pan American, so you know that goes back aways.) Every summer he went cruising for a couple months at a time. When I started dating his daughter, he would invite me to join his family for a week or two. After we were married, the tradition continued for years. We’d drive to Campbell River or Port Mcneill, hop onto the boat and then get dropped off again in one to two weeks. It’s what gave me a love for boating and shaped my expectations about what boat ownership is all about.

My point is that I don’t think I ever went cruising with him where something didn’t break down and have to be fixed. He went through three cabin cruisers - a Grandy, a Luhrs with twin Perkins diesels, and then bought a brand new Silverton with twin Crusader gas engines. New or old, it was always the same. Fixing, rebuilding and improving was as much a part of boating as actually cruising somewhere. And the systems were much less complex than they are today. He took his 28’ Grandy from Seattle to Alaska with no chartplotter, radar, autopilot, gps or internet. Just paper charts, a VHF, good compass and dead reckoning.

So when I got into boating myself it was by then ingrained in me that working on my boat - including fixing, improving and customizing - would be an inseparable part of the whole experience. Having said that I will add that our 3 year old Ranger R-31CB, with all of its complex systems that my father-in-law never dreamed of, has not given us anywhere near the number of problems to fix as I expected or remember my father-in-law having to deal with. And the factory guys have been over the top in responding to and taking care of our issues and needs. Never once did the Silverton factory rep/dealer visit his boat to personally take care of a problem that I can remember. Nor have I experienced that personal attention with previous boats I have owned.

We have now also taken our boat to Alaska, retracing my father-in-law’s steps. Our tug served us extremely well. And the couple of times I emailed someone at the factory about a question, I got an immediate response back. Even on a Sunday. Buying our Ranger Tug was one of the best life decisions we have made and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

John

 

[Bobby P.]

I have to agree with John. I have had many boats and rarely was I not fixing something. I also want to add that 4 years ago I bought a Ram 1500 eco-diesel and had more recalls than I can count, finally ending up having to trade it back in after it completely stopped running. I was in a two-year battle with Chrysler. Seemed like one wanted to help me. Did I mention i bought it BRAND NEW!

I was lucky enough to grow up the son of a mechanic. Mom made dad bring at least two of us 3 boys to work with him on any day we had off from school. Weekends and all summer! I've seen lots of mechanical failures on all sorts of powered equipment, some for good reason, others harder to figure out why.

Mechanical equipment, particularly boats, will have issues. What I love about the The Ranger Tug, Edgewater Yacht Sales, FM, and Tugnuts is the amount of support available.

I have a question in the morning, and I can have it figured it out by the end of the day. Sometimes sooner.

I bought my R31CB from Emile Petro at Edgewater Yachts Sales/Modern Tugs in Pensacola. It was a year old with 60 hours on it. The sale process, training and free storage was all an awesome experience. We found some things through the survey that needed to be addressed. Some he did at his own expense, and some at the sellers. In the end, I was more than satisfied.

Four months and 150 hours later a leak developed from the air conditioning pump. I was underway several hundred miles from home. I contacted the Edgewater and Carl said "Where are you and I'll send you a pump". I was actually able to fix the pump, but I still had a new one sent to my home to eventually carry as a spare. I also had a bilge pump problem. FM sent me a new pump (the wrong one). It was actually my mistake because what i described was the sump pump. I called FM and they sent me the correct pump at no charge, even knowing it was kind of my mistake. While waiting, I found from this website that it probably needed to be cleaned. I did that and it seemed to do the trick. I now have a new back up, just in case.

I am currently having some genset problems. The Onan 4/5kw QD. It is an excellent genset. I had the same exact one on my last boat and used it for 10 years without a single problem. This one is giving me fits, though. Had I not owned the same one previously, I'd probably be blaming FM or Edgewater. Mechanical equipment is prone to mechanically problems.

In short, I got the boat I wanted. It is complicated and, because it has moving parts, it will have issues. Most of the problems I have aren't even problems. It is really just something I haven't figured out about the system. This is the double edged sword of complicated systems that we've chosen to buy into. As well, these are first world issue and as odd as it might sound to some, I am lucky to have such problems. It sometimes keeps my mind off the real problems in life.

I just want to say thanks Edgewater, FM, and all you Tugnuts. I start almost everyday checking in on this site and thinking about boating.

Best regards,
Bobby

 

[BB marine]

I hope this thread does not get off subject. It is about a hazardous wiring condition that a Cutwater owner discovered. He purchased the new Cutwater from a dealer and discovered a serious electrical flaw. Many think of Rangers and Cutwaters of having complicated systems. Honestly the systems installed are the same systems installed in many cruising boats and actually the Rangers and Cutwaters systems are far from advanced. I would say average compared to many boats I have worked on, piloted or just boarded being nosy. Electrical systems can be hard to understand but if designed and installed logically it should be a matter of flipping switch. Most issues with electrical systems are not a caused from mechanical failures fuses protect this. Electrical components can fail mechanically but that is an easy parts change. Most electrical issues are do to design or installation. Examples: marginal wire size, meets code but under certain conditions, temperature, distance run, or equipment running on the higher side of specification there is an electrical issue. Loose connections, poor connections, improper connection placement, the list can go on and on . All manufactures have these issues some more than others. Electrical issues on boats can not be taken lightly. The highest quality manufactures make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. Repeat electrical issues is a warning to the manufacture that we need to fix this! I don't care how complicated the electrical system is. The system needs to be installed properly. I don't think Slade's intend was to scrutinize the QC of Fluid Motion it was to make owners aware of a hazard. The manufacture or the dealer representing the manufacturer sold the boat new and delivered it to a New Cutwater owner. The question or warning was not toward one or the other who cares, it was installed improperly and delivered. We TugNut members should use this thread for its intension Electrical issues and SAFETY. Hopefully Fluid Motion and Edgewater Yacht Sales looked into this and found the root cause of the improper electrical install and followed up on any other ones that might replicate this issue.

 

[Bobby P.]

Brian,
You are right. My post takes the focus away the seriousness of the electrical issue being discussed. If anyone knows how to move a post, please put this under the “chat“ section of the form. Otherwise it can be deleted completely.
Mea culpa,
Bobby

 

[BB marine]

Bobby,
I agree with your post as I do John's good stories and positive reviews that is great to read. Also appropriate the way the thread was starting to go. I just posted an opinion that we shouldn't loose track of the original reason for the thread. I enjoyed reading both Johns and your post. The theme was reality of boating.