Heavy Weather

F

FWTMD

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Feb 15, 2020
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Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C
Ranger Tugs are coastal cruisers, not ocean-going long distance trawlers. For that use they seem pretty rugged.

I am wondering about an aspect of heavy weather performance. I am mostly interested in the RT-29, but I think the question applies to all or most models.

The first line of defense is always to avoid heavy weather.

The second line of defense is to not do something stupid. Keep the bow into the waves as much as possible, tack into them if necessary, run downwind only if you simply must, and never with wind and waves on the beam.

But sometimes things just happen. So the third line of defense is how well the boat handles it.

The cockpits are large, which is a selling feature. But IF one takes on some water, what is the drainage like? Let's say a foot of water in the cockpit.

If I understand it, water drains into the engine hatch, and from there a bilge pump handles it. I would presume the lazarettes can fill, so they are drained? Roughly how fast would it take for any and all drains to clear the foot of water?

Second, the door to the cockpit is indeed a door. Windows on the side are sliders. Is it fair to say that in rough weather there can be some minor leakage? For this question, I'm just talking about some serious beating rain and spray.

I guess broadly, what is the experience with serious weather?
 
I have an R29S and I' can tell you my experience....which is limited in big weather. I have been in waves that were honest 4-5 feet a couple of times, for short periods. I wasn't comfortable. Stuff fell on the floor but all in all, the boat did fine. The low CG helps a lot.

I have never gotten much water over the gunnels besides rain. There is a scupper system. the water runs down between the engine and lazerette hatches and to the "trough" the hatches rest in. From those troughs the water drains into and flows through hoses to scupper drains on the transom just under the swim step, above the waterline. If that system were to be wet beyond capacity, the water would flow to the bilge to the pumps. There is one low pump and a higher forward pump.

Again, I have never had an issue with theses pumps - yet. The switches can get dirty. I rinse mine off somewhat regularly. as you read on Tugnuts, there are a lot of bilge pump stories.

I could never imagine a foot of water in the cockpit in normal operation... At a foot...I am guessing that the scuppers would help a lot - but quite a bit would probably get to the bilge.

As for the cabin door or windows....Never a leak yet. I rinse it well after every outing and I have never seen water. We have also been at anchor in some torrential downpours and no water found....

Again, my experience in really poor weather is limited, but I hope this helps.

Rocky
 
That's pretty helpful. Thanks Rocky.

Roughly how large are those hoses that lead to the pair of scuppers?
 
Just a guess, I'd say about 1-1/2" .

There are perforated plastic grates that cover the scupper drains to keep leaves and junk out of the scuppers. That would be the biggest impediment to flow. They can easily be popped out. I keep mine out and get a better flow. I'd hate to think about a foot of water in the cockpit.

BTW, those scupper outlets at the transom have rubber flappers to prevent backwash. Whenever I wash down the boat I like to flush the scuppers out. The old rubber has gotten pretty stiff over the years. I've always been tempted to cut them out. Whenever I see slow drainage I go out to the swim platform and reach down thru the gap to tweak them open and flush out any mud or debris that has entered the system. Sometimes the rubber flappers have been hard to get open. (It is a tight squeeze to get my old arthritic mitts down there.)

Two years ago, when the boat was out of the water I went underneath the platform and partially installed a small sheet metal screw part way into the flap. I left enough protruding to easily grab with my fingers to hold the flap open for flushing. On my R-27 there are two scupper drains. (Port and Strbd) Each one has two drain inlets. I have a wooden emergency repair plug that I jam into one drain and my washdown hose has a nozzle that fits nicely into the other drain. With that setup I can get a pretty good system flush while I check the flow at the flaps.
 
Thanks. I've seen on this board that some just ditch the covers.

I am just wild guessing what a foot of water would mean in gallons, but thinking 500 gal would be the high side (more likely half that). That adds 4100 pounds to the cockpit so at that point buoyancy questions arise, and the scuppers are below the waterline, but flow pressure enhanced from the forward motion. So long as the 4100 pounds doesn't just swamp the boat the flow rate would clear the bulk of it within maybe 5 minutes (and less with a quantity guess that's lower), with seepage then clearing through various assumed weep holes in lazarettes for some period of time but beyond any critical point. Of course one can go crazy trying to map vulnerability to additional water from a low and over-weighted stern in the rough sea conditions that caused the flooded cockpit in the first place but that's a bridge too far.

https://www.hy-techroofdrains.com/water ... ugh-a-pipe

Thanks. That's as far as I need to go. I'd say this a vulnerability for any and all boats of this general design, but this clear rate is probably as good as it gets. My question is clearly a very low probability event, especially since there are a lot of tugs in the PNW that appears to have more than its share of rough seas, and no reports of this issue are out there after many years of service.

I'm satisfied. Thanks for the help.
 
from some quick math: water at a 1 foot depth in an area of 7x5 feet would equal over 2000 lbs of weight and equal about 261 gallons. with 2x 1.5 inch drain pipes would probably take around 10 minutes to drain

handling would, er, be rather compromised with that in the cockpit.
 
As a former owner of a Ranger 29, I cannot conceive of any situation which could result in a foot of water (or any water bar rain) in the cockpit. I took that boat out into some pretty heavy water, more than I should have, actually. I had green water over the bow, to the extent that my burger flagstaff was bent backwards. Never did I get any water into the cockpit.
 
Its a lot of guesswork.

https://www.hy-techroofdrains.com/water ... ugh-a-pipe

Water flow with pure gravity pressure through an unobstructed pipe 1.5 inches in diameter is 35 gallons per minute times two = 70 gallons per minute.

261 gallons clears in 3.7 minutes.

It may be a crisis when its full, but not with the last few gallons. But yeah, it would sure feel like a long 3 minutes.

But that's with unobstructed pipes, not covered with strainers. That's with pipes still above the waterline, not buried from the weight of water in the cockpit. But the clear rate goes up substantially with pressure, and how much pressure comes from the forward movement of the boat?

Its beyond me to make calculations that incorporate such dynamic variables. I give up.

The bottom line for me is the fact the gunwales on the Tugs are on the high side, I would think the swim platform would break up the structure of any wave coming dead astern, both reducing risk, and no one is reporting risk from having seen it or heard about it happening. As I said before, I'm satisfied.
 
More dynamic issues:

The door to the swim platform opens in. Held shut with a simple toggle bolt. I'd think a wall of water hitting that might well pop that latch.

But an open door would allow water to clear FAST.

BUT importantly, no one has reported here hearing about that latch getting popped. With lots of Tugs on the water for an extended time. Which just says "something" about the hull design that mitigates the risks from a large cockpit.

Satisfied.
 
Spinner":fp1ea5oa said:
As a former owner of a Ranger 29, I cannot conceive of any situation which could result in a foot of water (or any water bar rain) in the cockpit. I took that boat out into some pretty heavy water, more than I should have, actually. I had green water over the bow, to the extent that my burger flagstaff was bent backwards. Never did I get any water into the cockpit.
Click to expand...

I can relate to bending the burgee staff. A lot of our previous boating experience was out on the Chesapeake. While this is usually nice calm cruising water some winds in spring and fall [or thunderstorms] can combine with relatively shallow water and a decent fetch to rapidly build some nasty short frequency steep chops. After a really bad thunderstorm experience one July in our 28 foot Carver, a storm with three boats lost nearby and two drowned, we changed boating style and I ran mainly our 23 foot Boston Whaler Conquest. Perhaps with a false sense of security derived from the fact that the boat was unsinkable I would do stuff that I certainly wouldn't think of today. A nice deep V, a limiter on the outboard and a solid hull made going airborne real fun.

If you look at the chart just north of the Bay Bridge near Sandy Point Shoal Lighthouse you will see a warning note that "11 ft waves have been noted in this area". I was having a fun run from Annapolis up to Baltimore in March one year and enjoying the ~3 ft chop created by a northeast wind and the flooding tide at about 35 mph, usual cruising speed. As I rounded the light I saw a wave in front of me that just towered over the bow. My reaction was wrong when I backed off the throttle and the wave behind me just pushed me bow first into what seemed like a wall. The bow rail went in about half way down, the wave came up over the bow, up the windshield and hit the underside of the hardtop. Part of it went over the top of the hardtop and took out the navigation light before a whole pile of water dumped into the cockpit. Fortunately the motor kept going and I was able to keep headway into the chop beyond. The Boston Whaler has direct scuppers but I think they would've taken a long time to drain that amount. The good news about slowing down was that the bow stayed high and water did not flow forward much, through the door and into the V berth, the bilge pump location. Also lucky that the door in the stern was open. That was the real fast drain. We opened the hatch into the fish box in the deck and the macerator pump did a good job of draining the remainder. It's not an experience I would recommend! I certainly would not like to see anything like a foot of water in the cockpit of our R 25 SC since I try to be not so stupid.
 
I have an R 27, I came through Whale Cay passage Bahamas,Abacos and was caught in a following breaking sea, powering to keep bow at right angles to seas, but was also towing a dinghy, no motor. I found that the dinghy made a good drogue, helping to keep the boat from broaching. When I got to an anchorage I found about 5 inches of water in the dinghy. I tow with two separate lines so the load is not concentrated. I suspect that the dinghy parted the breaking waves and took the cresting seas.

I have noticed that on following seas, waves flow over the swim platform and piles up at the door, I noticed a copious amount of water coming under the bottom of the door and flooding towards the battery compartment and also into the engine compartment. I built a stop water out of starboard full width about a three quarter inch high tight against the door, that stopped most of that flooding water.

I think the wave periods are the key, shorts periods do not allow the stern to rise quickly. In Alaska I found myself in very short period as I unknowingly passed over a bar that bunched long waves into short steep seas, overpowering the autopilot, I throttled up only to have green water almost to the gunnel, going much too fast for conditions powering down to let the wave pass placed me at the crest of the following wave, thank goodness for the reserve buoyancy of the bow and keeping the stern square to the seas. About 6 or 8 steep waves made a strong pucker factor, but I think Ranger builds a safety minded vessel and make allowances for pilot error.
 
Chimo: you clearly understand the source of my initial questions!

Those waters are waters I intend to be on very regularly.

We've both seen a lot.

Its the confused seas that are the biggest concern, in my opinion. Not the swells and chop that have some systemic pattern you can pilot into / through. You take nasty weather and throw in the sizeable wake from large cargo ship traffic and its nasty squared.

Geez, just on the topic of ship wake, I remember a bluebird beautiful day sailing on the Bay. Decent breeze for sailing but the Bay was pretty flat. My eyes were ahead, but turned around ... in time ... to see 3-4 ft wake about to hit me. I had enough time to swing hard into it, sails not trimmed for it, but over I went, straight up then down. Not fun. In a very small boat that was more excitement than I needed. That cargo ship was miles away so the lack of proximity had me ignoring it.

Sandy Point is one bad spot. I have no experience with the mouth of the Potomac but have heard that's the worst on the Bay.

Those Carvers were nice boats. From what I see the Tugs are too. One can stay ashore, or go to sea but in something seaworthy for the intended waters. I think the Tugs pass that test. Looking forward to the day I can get aboard one.
 
Alice J:

Nailed it.

Short, sharp, and tall is the risk.

But your comment about the swim platform door really interests me. If water can push under it, it can also push out under it helping the clearing time. It becomes an additional scupper.

You say water can / did push against the door. Any guesses to share about how high? Are we talking about a brief swirl against it, or something taller against the stern?
 
I am more interested in keeping water out of the cockpit. Perhaps a large relieving port cut into the door that works only when there is pressure from inside the cockpit ? The space under would let some water out, but I think the scuppers work more effectively as the 6 inch step at the door is a dam that traps the water. Bad design if your sliding doors are at deck level. On my 27 the door is 6 or so inches higher and opens into the cockpit, so hopefully the scuppers will do their magic

I have found that the dead bolt comes loose as the boat works. So a small strap pulling on the dead bolt keeps it engaged
 
Ah ha. About that step. I don't (yet) own a tug so that aspect eluded me. I had to go to the Virtual Tour to see it.

I get what you are saying that as a scupper the sill of that is imperfect. But I guess the thing I'm looking into is so much water as to bog down and swamp or semi-swap the boat. Under way there would enough bow rise angle to limit the quantity to be of no serious concern before it rises to that sill.

Having said that, I get what you are saying about it being more of source in than out, in your experience. Hence my question about how deep / high it gets against the stern on the platform.

I'm not interested in a blue water trawler with a cockpit just big enough to step aboard before stepping inside. That's safe for a blue water boat. But not my on my coastal cruiser shopping list. So its an inherent risk in the boat style I desire, and from there it becomes how well the design handles it.
 
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