Impeller Failure

Stella Karuna

Active member
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
25
Fluid Motion Model
C-26
Hull Identification Number
FMLR2506F11
Vessel Name
Stella Karuna
MMSI Number
316019059
Hi Folks:

My question is whether there is an alternative to the impeller?

I have a Ranger 25SC with about 120 hours on it. We were cruising in Barkley Sound and the engine overheated and we required coast guard assistance and a tow. The problem was an impeller failure. This was not cheap to fix and unfortunately is not covered by the Yanmar or Ranger warranty. I am told that this failure is relatively rare, but a bit scarey as we do like cruising the outside of Vancouver Island and some of the more remote parts of the BC coast. Sometime the seas can get a bit big out there waiting for a tow. I don't think fixing it myself on the open seas is an option as it took the mechanic a lot of hours in the shop to do the job.

Any thoughts on this? I would really like to have some piece of mind with this engine.

cheers Bill
 
Hello Bill and sorry to read about your impeller failure. I agree with you that changing out an impeller at sea would be a tough chore at best, even if one had the tools, part and knowledge, I know I could not do it on our R27 in rough water. With that said impellers fail because of age or conditions so our options are preventive at best. One thing I do is clean out the sea strainer on a regular basis. I find it does a good job of collecting debris, which it is meant to do, however things like pieces of reed, sand or dirt from muddy water do get thru. By cleaning the strainer on a regular basis at least cleans out what has been captured. I also find the screen mesh can get clogged up which lets less water thru and therefore does not let the impeller stay lubricated as much as it might need therefore creating a condition for failure. Most engine manuals state that an impeller should be changed out on an annual basis. If this was done that would take care of the age condition. I personally think changing once per year depends on the number of hours one runs and the conditions they run in. We have 250 hours on our Yanmar with the original impeller, over 14 months. With that said I'm going to personally change my impeller out in the spring (when the boat goes back into the water) and save the 3 hour shop charge. Even if one is not inclined to do the work themselves it is a good idea to have a spare impeller on board. By doing so could save you some money vs paying for overnight charges and or lost days on the water if a mechanic does not have one or can not get one easily.

I hope these few thoughts will give you some piece of mind about your engine.

Jim F
 
Yes having a spare is great as well as any other parts you think you might need, As they say there are always lots of mechanics but never seems to be parts. I am not familiar with your tug I have thought about being stuck in a similar situation and had a thought. On my 29 I have a sea water wash down. I am going to install a "T" fitting on the water supply to the engine for winterizing and thought in a pinch I could run the freshwater hose into the coupling and use the wash down pump to supply water to get back to shore..you would need to close the sea cock of course so the water doesn't just flow back into the sea. As I said at this point just a thought, and hope I don't have to try this out, but provided the broken impeller didn't clog the inlet, I don't see why this wouldn't work.
 
Your idea seems plausible however you should check with the engine manufacturer to be safe. The reason I say this has to do with water flow.......to much and it can get into the engine similar to backwash getting into the exhaust and this could damage the engine. To little and you can cause overheating. Question......does more water flow into the sea strainer at higher hull speeds? I really don't know for sure however if more does then you'd need to address how to get more flow. If the engine manufacturer could state how much water flow is needed in gallons per minute, at a get home speed of say 7 knots, you could then test your theory by adjusting the water spicket to the same flow rate and then this would work. However, there always is one, you'd have to make sure to cut the flow when you slowed down, docked and or turned the engine off. Unlimited towing insurance from BoatUS or another company is another option.

Jim F
 
Hi Guys:

Some good ideas and points. The wash down pump is a good idea that I have not thought about. The issue of the flow rate is a good point. One issue is that I only have one salt water inlet that goes through the sea strainer and then feeds the washdown pump, head and cooling water. So closing the sea cock is not an option and I wonder if - as was pointed out - using the washdown pump when the impeller failed would not just pump the water out the sea cock rather than into the engine.

My boat only had 120 hours on it and I do check the sea strainer every day. I also carry a spare impeller, but not too useful in the wilds of BC where I am many hours - sometimes days - from civilization. When I had my failure, it was a calm day, but the rocky shore is exposed to the open Pacific. Luckly my anchor held in the deep water and prevented any more drifting toward shore. I have been in the same area in 6 foot seas and 30 knots. Not sure the anchor would have held then and abandoning ship into my little dingy doesn't sound great. A failure when exposed to the open Pacific on a lee shore scares the .... out of me.
 
Our impeller went out this summer when we were taking the boat out of the harbor into Lake Erie. All of a sudden there were alarms going off to tell me the engine was overheated. We ran it back to the marina and the next day the impeller was changed. The boat only had about 50 hours on it. The mechanic recommended replacing the impeller every 2 years but I'm thinking every year even though it was a pretty expensive job.

Why it went bad after only 50 hours? I don't know. We bought the boat new in January of 2012 and it was a 2010 model that had probably been at the dealers for a year before we got it. Maybe that time had something to do with it. Even though we hadn't had the boat 8 months when it happened, impellers aren't covered by the warranty.

Never had that experience before in all my years of boating and I have to admit it was a little concerning considering some of the places we might have been when it happened. I know I don't want that surprise in some remote area of the North Channel or Georgian Bay.
 
With your new 2010 being bought in 2012 that would indicate the impeller most likely sat in a static position for extended periods of time without use which is not good for an impeller. That coupled with the impeller not having any lubricant to keep it pliable could have caused yours to have an early failure.

Jim F
 
On my previous boats I made a habit of changing the impeller every year irrespective of its condition. Perhaps overkill but I never had a problem.

I don't recall how easy it is to access the impeller on my new Ranger (it's now in storage up north) but you may find the Speedseal is worth considering or better, the Speedseal Life. See details on http://www.speedseal.com

Pete
 
Pete":21gt59yc said:
On my previous boats I made a habit of changing the impeller every year irrespective of its condition. Perhaps overkill but I never had a problem.

I don't recall how easy it is to access the impeller on my new Ranger (it's now in storage up north) but you may find the Speedseal is worth considering or better, the Speedseal Life. See details on http://www.speedseal.com

Pete

Pretty interesting. Anyone have experience with this product?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNsn6owpqk[/youtube]
 
First and foremost, I want to say I'm glad you're OK and that you were able to obtain help out there on the water.

What was your procedure for seeking help?

=====================================================================================================
This impeller failure story is disturbing -- and confusing for me.

One post indicated a failure at 120 hrs and another at 50 hrs !!!!!!

This tells me that even if you replace a working impeller with a new one each year there's no real assurance this will prevent a sudden impeller failure.

Can the posters who reported failures describe the impeller failure fault(s) such as vane(s) missing, vanes mangled, bad cracks seen at the root of the vane(s), etc.

Of course these two reported failures are in the face of several hundred R25s not having this problem.

For example, I have just under 250 hrs on our 2010 R-25's Yanmar 4BY2-150 engine and about a month ago had the 250 hr engine service done. At my request I had the technician pull and inspect the impeller. There were no hairline cracks nor missing vanes nor mangled vanes nor out-of-shape vanes to be seen. The technician said there was no earthly reason to replace it even though I was holding a brand new one in my hand.Now after reading this thread who's to say the new one wouldn't fail in 50 hrs or 120 hrs ? I accepted the technician's advice and will keep the new impeller in my spares kit.

I do accept the advice of having the impeller inspected/examined in spring time or before one begins their cruising time.

I suspect with the engine not running and the impeller being located high up on the engine that the impeller does not sit in water. This then means it's high-and-dry for periods of time. My R-25 tends to sit in its covered slip without use for maybe 4-6 months during winter time in the water. Our boat is a little over 3 yrs old so it's been through this cycle 3 times now... and the impeller remains in very good shape. I will add, that during these 4-6 months I will go to the boat to check things and will always run the engine for around 30 mins and take it out of the marina for a quick spin for 20 mins or so, running the engine up to around 3800 rpm for short periods of time. I can do this easily as I live but 5 mins from my marina. If you have your boat on a trailer or held in dry dock this may not be something you can do easily.

When I watched the technician pull the impeller I did not see it as being a monumental task. He removed the vertical portion of the cabin step and exposed the access to the impeller pulley. He then slipped a flat head screwdriver under the impeller's pulley belt and carefully slipped it off. He then aligned the impeller pulley to access the bolts holding the impeller housing. He then removed the bolts and carefully extracted the impeller and inspected it. He then reinstalled things in reverse order. I did not time him but would estimate the time from removing the cabin step's vertical panel to reinstalling this same panel to be no longer than 30 mins. Of course you do need the proper tools... screwdriver, correct socket(s)/socket-ratchet, flashlight(torch) and the ability to lay flat down on your belly. Doing this with the boat heaving and rolling about would be a real challenge of course.

I wonder what the shelf life is for a spare impeller contained in its sealed plastic container ??????

How can we all get a better understanding of this premature impeller failure ?

1) I suspect Ranger Tugs hear most impeller failure stories and I personally would like to know what the failure statistics are that might shed some light on recommended best practices should be adopted to reduce impeller failure risk.

2) If others have replaced their impeller maybe they could describe their repair process and under what circumstances was the repair made.

3) Maybe a impeller failure and/or 'best practice' and/or recommended periodic maintenance survey could be conducted here on this forum.
 
Pete:

Your reference to the Speedseal product is received with much appreciation.

From the video that Bruce posted it seems that the predominate impeller failures are caused by raw water being obstructed to the impeller, causing it to run in a dry state and presumably high friction giving rise to excessive heat and subsequent impeller failure. Thus replacing the impeller each year really does not lower the risk of impeller failure caused by 'blockage' of the raw water intake as I see it. Replacing the impeller each year in my mind simply provides you with a 'new' impeller' and the hope that it operates without failure for one year as did the one being replaced.

I just called the Speedseal product telephone number and was able to speak to a 'live person(chap)'. I gave him my engine model 4BY2-150 and serial number and he will be getting back to me to say if their product is suitable for my engine. He was concerned that Yanmar may have installed various impeller pump assemblies on this engine model so he want to check this out. He was quite helpful. It seems the cost for Speedseal with S&H is around $100.

I wonder if using Speedseal in any way voids the Yanmar engine warranty ?

[Edit]

Just received a call-back from Alex (+44 1372 451992). He indicated if the impeller covering on my engine is a molded cast iron cover the Speedseal product would not be suitable. If however, the impeller cover is a flat plate the Speedseal product would work. I will be obtaining my impeller pump's model number from Yanmar based on my engine's serial number to check this aspect out.
 
A few months back I emailed Speedseal asking if their product would fit a Yanmar 4BY2. The answer was no.
 
I've just had a long chat with my engine service technician about impeller maintenance -- the one that performed the 250 hr engine service a month ago on my 2010 R-25.

Here's what he said

1. Time to remove and inspect the impeller is 30 mins.
2. Time to pry out the impeller is 15 mins.
3. Total time for replacing impeller would be no more than 45 mins to 1 hour.

Under normal conditions the 4BY engine model's impeller should be good for 200 to 300 hours. Should be checked every 200 hrs or 2 years. Should be replaced after 400 to 500 hours. Yanmar's 4BY model has a better impeller assembly than previous Yanmar 4 cyl marine engines.

The impeller housing is a flat plate with a shaft on inside that holds the impeller. 4 long skinny allen bolts holds the flat plate to the impeller housing.

He had heard about Speedseal and had no negative comments on the product.
 
This gentleman does not address the issue of the heat buildup due to the lack of water that not only cools but lubricates. When I forgot to open the seacock and had to have the impeller replaced all the fins were down to nubs but I didn’t notice any problem with the ends, as he is describing.

John
on the Sallison
 
The maual for the Yanmar 110 in my R-25 classic recommends changing the impeller every 4 years or 1000 hours.
I continue to operate with the original impeller and the engine has about 850 hours.
It is a mystery to me what is happening when impellers go out after only 50 hours.
I agree with the philosopy expressed by others, that changing the impeller just for the sake of changing the impeller, will not necessarily prevent the problem.
 
Most of the time when I do my annual change the impeller looks just fine. On a couple of occasions I saw distinct stress cracks. No idea why but looked to me like a wise decision to change. I'm being ultra conservative but, given my total annual boating costs, I've decided that it's a small price to pay when running a single engine boat.
 
My impeller failure was 120 hours and unfortunately I did not see the impeller when it was removed.
When it failed I was travelling at 6 knt. I noticed that the water temperature was higher than normal and shut it down before the engine alarm went off. We got towed into port and spoke to the mechanic. He said to take it out again and so idled out and then took it up to full throttle with normal water temperature. All looked good and then we cut it back to a more economical 6 knots and the engine alarm went off. Another tow and an expensive trailer pick up as the boat was a 7 hour return trip Port Alberni.

I think the speed seal idea is a good one and I hope it can work because for the cost it seems well worthwhile.

However, it points out the primary cause and that is a blockage of the raw water inlet. On my 25SC, there is one sea cock with a pretty small grilled inlet. Even a piece of kelp could block it. A wonder if a bigger inlet and a second sea cock might be a good idea?
 
You make a good point re. the size of the raw water inlet and filter. They seem to be frequently undersized on smaller boats. Our Florida boat is single diesel and 34 ft overall but it was built with a sizable seachest and 2 intakes/filters that you'd expect to see on a much larger boat, so even though it's common to pick up vegetation I've never come close to a complete blockage.
Pete
 
An impeller failure happens for various reasons, often times we never know why. An example would be a piece of plastic gets sucked up tight against the intake thru hull on the bottom of the boat therefore preventing water from entering the sea strainer.....when the engine alarm goes off or we notice the engine temperature going up and we cut the engine off and the boat is stopped the pressure is released between the thru hull and plastic and the plastic can wash away and we never knew. This could happen at any time, no matter how many hours are on our engines. When I see a piece of plastic floating around in the marina (a discarded ice bad is a good example) I try to go out of my way to get it out of the water....after all it could be my thru hull it gets sucked up against.

Something else that has not been mentioned but is very important, whether we replace the impeller or have it done, is to make sure all the broken pieces of the fins are retrieved from the impeller housing. If not this can be another cause for another impeller failure.

Jim F
 
It looks like the Speedseal product is not compatible with the 4BY2 Yanmar engines. This is because the pump cover incorporates the pulley and impeller shaft that is held on by 4 long skinny allen key bolts -- that is, the pulley is part of the housing that gets released after the 4 bolts are removed. As this part gets removed carefully the impeller inside the pump housing remains and can be inspected using a mirror. The impeller can if necessary be carefully pulled out for its replacement.

Thus, the 'flat plate' Speedseal design would not be compatible with the 4BY2 Yanmar engine as far as I can see. This is also confirmed by my Yanmar engine service technician. Alex at Speedseal will no doubt be confirming this for me.

For the record, the Yanmar 4BY2 engine's raw water pump assembly part number is 120650-42300.

An earlier post by member Osprey also confirmed this incompatibility.
 
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