Introduction with some general questions

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pbjsammich

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Joined
Sep 28, 2016
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Fluid Motion Model
R-21 EC
First off, I've really enjoyed reading through this site. Very informative and appears to be filled with lots of people willing to help out and share their knowledge!!

I'll outline my questions first for those that don't really want to read through my story:
1. Wanted to verify that the "classic" or pre-SC R25 has the same cabin size as the current R27?
2. Has anyone lived aboard a Ranger tug through a northern winter? If so what was your "comfort factor?"
3. Reliability overall for the live-aboards? Is the Ranger really made for daily usage? Rugged enough to handle a full time live aboard?
4. Any issues with the older cummins powerplants?
5. Any training/reading material/classes you might suggest for a wanna-be boat captain?

(I have used the search feature however I'm still wanting to get as many personal opinions as I can on these topics)

My quick story....I'm a mechanical engineer / project manager that works offshore construction projects for an oil and gas company. I live in a suburb of Houston (Willis TX) and live on Lake Conroe. I have loved being on the water all my life and actually grew up in PA and spent summer vacations with my family renting cabins on lakes on the Rideau Canal system up in Canada. I always admired the lifestyle of those folks cruising through the canals and it has stuck with me to this day. My wife and I frequently discuss including some live-aboard adventures in our retirement plans.

My work relocated me to the NYC area a few years back for an installation project and I'm now looking to return to the area in 2018 for another project. This project is much more complicated than the last and the duration is expected to be longer (1-2 years). On my past project, I rented an apartment in Jersey City adjacent to the Liberty Marina(s). Really liked the area and fully intend to target this area for my next assignment. However, this time around I'm thinking of putting my per diem toward a boat. Why not right? In a small amount of time, I could pay a massive chunk of the price of a vessel if not pay for it entirely! And I get to stay in the area I already know and enjoy. Sounds reasonable?!?!

So I commenced my shopping and research a few months ago. So far I've really set my sights on a Ranger. I like the style. I like the size. I REALLY like the option to tow it. It's just my wife and I (and two pups) and it's looking likely that she won't do the 100% relocation with me (she just started her own business and it's doing pretty well). So the live aboard situation is really just me full-time, probably with a wife visit for 1-2 weeks at a time throughout the year. I still have yet to see a Ranger tug in person so I figured I'd lean on my online resources (that's where you guys come in!!) to ask some questions.

First off, I'm asking the obvious question....is it feasible to assume I could live aboard an R25 for this length of time? I'm really targeting a used "classic" R25 (non SC model) as I believe this to be a larger cabin before they increased the cockpit size? I'm confident I have the ability to live in this small space....but how reliable have these tugs been for live-aboards and/or full time users?

And has anyone lived aboard one through some northern winters? Are they comfortable in the cabin in nasty temperatures? I understand that I'll need to do some prep work to keep the vessel and systems safe (heaters for freshwater systems, etc)....I'm talking more about personal comfort.

As said, I'm currently thinking the 2008-2010 model will likely be my focus when I start shopping around this time next year. Any issues with the cummins that came in these models?

Lastly, I want to get both myself and my wife educated about this kind of boating. We have always had a pleasure boat in the family and we're both very familiar with what it takes to have a safe day pleasure boating on Lake Conroe. However...navigation, radio etiquette and usage, etc are somewhat foreign to us. It's important to me that we enter into this informed. I know there are endless resources on the internet....however I'm thinking that this might need to be a bit more "formal" as that typically works better for my wife's attention span. Any suggestions?

Greatly appreciate the folks that read and respond here. I always try to gather my info and go into a purchase (especially a large one like this) as educated as possible!!
 
Forgot to ask....any chance someone in TX might be willing to give me a tour of their Ranger Tug??
 
Your personal comfort level is most important. What is comfortable for some is not for others. My wife and I live on our R-27 for three to four months at a time. After 3 months or so it is time to get off and enjoy land for a while. However, if you are working and off the boat most of the time I could see being on it much longer. Having lived in the area you are considering the winter may be trying. I would ask the marina how other boats in the area handle it. You may need bubblers to prevent freezing around the hull. You should winterize the engine and take precaution for water line freezing in the head and the galley. Additionally, as insulated as the tug is you will experience condensation on the hatches and even eventually notice the monkey fur areas exhibiting some mildew because of underlying condensation. This is all manageable, but you need the right mindset. What will your wife do if she is there for a long period of time? Will she have something to occupy her day in and day out? I know a couple who lived the winter in Victoria. The weather is a bit more mild there, low forties. They both picked up temporary jobs and did fine on their R-29. As a matter of fact they live full time on the R-29.
 
I think Mike hit the high spots for you regarding live aboard and winter usage. Regarding the R25 classic vs the 25SC I think becomes a personal choice. The 25 classic cabin is larger than the SC as they did in fact decrease cabin length on the classic to obtain a larger cockpit area. Again, I think this becomes what one prefers. We enjoy the larger cabin as opposed to the cockpit, and, on our classic, we have never felt short of cockpit space - easily takes our two folding arm chairs and a small fold up table. For someone who does a lot of fishing or other activities the larger cockpit may be the way to go.
Engines, that I am sure will open up a good discussion. We have the Cummins 150 in our classic and it has not missed a beat since we purchased the tug in 2010. It was a MY 2009 demo boat with 5 hours on the engine. The engine will start within 2-3 seconds after key is turned on and has done so since we purchased. The only issue we have ever had was 3 years ago several boats in our marina took direct lighting hits and one happened to be next to us. Destroyed all our electronics except for the engine, it was one of the few on the dock which still started. But we did end up with an intermittent start issue - would start normal then after the engine got hot maybe it would or maybe it wouldn't start. But, if we let it sit for 30mins would start normal. Tracked it back to a small 10amp spade fuse with a hairline fracture which opened after engine heat built up closed when cooled down. Result of lighting voltage working through boat?? My personal feeling a diesel is a diesel - give it good fuel, good air and clean oil they typically will go until....i.e. just give the engine a little TLC and it will preform. My thoughts.
 
Thanks for the reply guys. Good to get some insight from the folks that have been there done that!!

Excellent point on the condensation....hadn't thought of that. Wonder if I could run a (very) small dehumidifier to remedy that problem??

I do intend to swing by the marina(s) next business trip up there....mainly to see the facilities and ask some questions. I will add the winter "in water" questions to my other questions. Strangely my Dad was just talking about the bubbler last night. I don't recall the marina freezing over when I was up there (and it was a pretty harsh winter) but yet another question I will ask the marina folks.

Actually as part of my "work," I was intending to utilize the tug to go check on our offshore progress. Hoping to avoid the engine winterization but if I must I must.

Good point about this being "wife friendly." She's friends with many of the other work wives that will be up north for this project. Something I'll have to be sure to outline to her before the purchase.

Where there's a will there's a way I suppose. Glad to hear some of you have done this and enjoyed it. Guess it's all about motivation. And I'm motivated for this adventure!!
 
I have a friend that lives full time in his boat in Chicago and has for many years because it is relatively close to his downtown office and there is no traffic to deal with. His boat is a 48 footer and bubblers keep it safe in the winter freezing. The big issue you will need to address if whether your marina has year round shower and toilet facilities or whether they will be available at your place of work. (My dad lived in motorhome for two years in the Detroit area and that is the key to getting through freezing winter months and keeping the condensation bearable.) If I was contemplating such an adventure, I would definitely consider the 27 and a full Sunbrella enclosure for the cockpit. The additional cost of the 27 is easily justifiable for a live aboard and the extra room will not disappoint.
 
>>Wanted to verify that the "classic" or pre-SC R25 has the same cabin size as the current R27?<<

I don't believe that is the case. From what I am able to determine, the R27 cabin is 16" longer than the R25 classic.

Regarding suitability as a live aboard, the R27 galley is more complete with a conventional oven and a microwave.
 
Just to add a few more thoughts and it was mentioned here. Consider the R-27. The extra money will get you a nice bang for the buck, especially if you are financing. The extra monthly cost is insignificant and the extra space may be well worth it. The cockpit enclosure will give you an extra room. Air conditioning, which should be considered for summers, with reverse cycle will make heating much easier, but an electric heater for night use while sleeping will be quieter. Besides air conditioning I also have the Wabasto diesel heater and it is a champ. It will heat up the space in no time. Electric blankets will be a nice addition as well. Check out Liberty Marina. They have a good reputation and have great reviews on Active Captain. Open winter facilities for bathroom and shower will be important.
 
Regarding the size of the R27 cabin vs R25 Classic. My understanding is that the additional 2 feet in the R27 is split between the cabin (around 6") and the cockpit (around 18"). To confirm that I just measured the cabin of our R27 from where the helm aisle wall nearly touches the front inner starboard window frame to the cabin door frame at 12 feet 4 inches. The cockpit from the cabin outside wall to the inside of the transom at the diesel fill is 79".

If someone with an R25 Classic will measure the same locations maybe we can put this one to bed.

For us the key differences between the R27 and the R25 (Classic or SC) is the cockpit size and the full galley (oven). It's kind of the best of the R25 Classic and the R25SC ...plus.
 
Liberty Landing Marina is live aboard friendly. Many live aboards stay there while going to school and work to avoid the high cost of living in NYC. Water taxis stop there so getting over to NYC is painless. Well not entirely painless. They have secure parking. The view of the city from there is breath taking at night. Plus going up the Hudson river has all kinds of opportunities on the weekends. I would swing for a Webasco heater if you intend to winter there.
 
Great advice in here guys! Thanks so much for the responses. I haven't dug in much on the R27 research but you guys are starting to convince me to give it a look.

Red Raven, thanks for taking the time to measure your vessel for this discussion!! I'm currently trying to decide where to take a "mini-vacation" with the wife to be able to step foot on both the classic 25 and the 27. Looking like we may cash in some of our airline miles and head over to Florida for a long weekend. If I can do this reasonably soon I'll post up measurements.

Scuffy, agreed on the view!! We lived about 100 feet from the marina for just shy of a year. I would run on the Jersey City boardwalk every other morning and always took a few minutes just to take in that skyline. Gorgeous!! Last night I spent some time plotting out how far we could get on the weekends (both Long Island and up the Hudson). Lots of opportunities!

Thanks for all the replies folks. They are much appreciated. Look forward to posting up after I've taken some time to check these vessels out in person.
 
Quick update....I'm excited to say that my wife and I are heading up to Seattle in two weekends to check out the assembly line and also check out the Ranger line up. Figured what better place to check out each model than the Ranger factory! They even have an older R25 there that they said I'd be able to check out. Look forward to following up with my findings!
 
Something that can be done to combat the real winter condensation issue is to shrink wrap the boat. While we stayed for a month in Victoria last winter in our R27 we saw many liveaboards who either shrink wrapped or tarped there boats. The added layer holds the heat in, reduces condensation and from what I was told makes the winter living aboard more bearable. You can have a zipper door installed in the shrink wrapping for access.

Jim
 
As someone who upgraded from an R25 classic to an R27 after only one season, you know what my answer is! The R-27 is much more "boat", and dimensions do not do that aspect justice. I don't know the feet and inches but the cabin is bigger and the cockpit is much bigger. She is more comfortable under way, less tippy when you are walking around and is faster. Add in that my particular R27 was newer and had more mod cons and my only regret was not starting with an R27 in the first place - go for it!
 
As always, appreciate the feedback guys. My wife and I had a blast in the Seattle area. Andrew at Ranger took a huge chunk of his morning to show us around the factory and give us a tour of their boats. Side note before I get started...have to say there was a sense of pride seeing an American company doing well. Very impressed at the amount of work that is truly done in-house. And their customer service was certainly on par with the stories I've read online. Great job Ranger Tugs!!

Well, hands down, the 27 was the superior vessel. We walked around a 25 classic and you have all accurately described it.....yes, the interior square footage seemed about the same, but the 27 used that square footage a bit more efficiently. Have to admit I'm even looking over the fence at the 29's. Although my wife and I are pretty "basic," that added space might be needed. Glad we got to see these in person. Really put things into perspective. I wasn't quite connecting the dots on the price jump between the 25 classic and the 27....now it makes more sense.

In fairness, I think if it weren't for us targeting this "live-aboard" for this length of time, I'd easily pull the trigger on a 25 classic. I think it's more than adequate for our "2-3 weeks a year" target for this boat.

Trying to organize another weekend trip to look at a 27 in the classifieds. It's still a little early for us but I'm going to start shopping now.
 
pbjsammich,

I see you are from Texas. I wish I knew you were coming up this way (Just live about an hour north of the Kent Factory). I would have requested you to bring some Rudys BBQ. 😉
 
The 29 vs 27 difference is 2 feet in length, but more significant IMHO, the increased beam makes a real difference. The forward stateroom is also super comfortable....
 
pbjsammich":6j5rjag2 said:
In fairness, I think if it weren't for us targeting this "live-aboard" for this length of time, I'd easily pull the trigger on a 25 classic. I think it's more than adequate for our "2-3 weeks a year" target for this boat.
Click to expand...
Totally get that. We went to the factory and wife pulled me kicking and screaming from the 27. We should be closing on a (late 2013) 25sc in a week or so. Yay!
 
As far as the differences in cabin and cockpit size between the R27 and the R25 Classic let me try to shed some light on this. The LOA of the R25 Classic (and R25SC) is 24 ft 7 inches. The R27 LOA is 27 feet 1 inch. This is a difference in LOA of 2 feet 7 inches or 31 inches total. These LOA measurements are taken from the Ranger Tug factory website.
I measured both the cockpit and cabin lengths of the R27 and the R25 Classic last year before we make our purchase. I agree with RedRaven that the cabin length of the R27 is about 10.5 inches longer than the cabin of the R25 Classic. It was my observation that on the starboard side the 6 inches is split between a slightly larger head size and additional length in the galley for a full stove.
From my measurements, the interior dimensions of the cockpit of the R27 is about 14.5 inches longer that the cockpit of the R25 Classic. The cockpit of the R27 feels a LOT larger than the cockpit of the R25 Classic.
My measurements could be off by an inch or so for the cabin and the cockpit - I wasn't trying to be more precise than that when I took them. Assuming my measurements are spot on, the difference in the cabin and cockpit lengths accounts for 25" of 31" differences between the published LOA of both models.
I have no idea where that remaining 6" is distributed. Is it in the v-berth? Longer pulpit? "Thicker" transom? Combination of these?

CORRECTION: I have updated the measurements above after re-taking the R25 Classic cabin and cockpit measurements using the same method as RedRaven. Not sure how I got my notes on measurements screwed up but I did. Apologize for my error! Still don't know where the "extra" 6 inches is though!!
 
As a confirmed Tug lover it pains me to be a wet blanket (sigh) 🙁
Depends on where you are wintering the boat.
Look, the side walls of the hull are what, maybe 3/8" thick.
When it is 10 F outside the inside of that glass is 10 F and covered with frost. Fiberglass is not an insulator.
If you are the type who likes to camp in the mountains in a tent in the dead of winter you will love it.
Otherwise, not so much.
The past two years my Tug spends the early part of the winter in an unheated equipment shed here in Mid Michigan. I am on the boat frequently (boredom once the farming is over for the year). I will start an electric heater running inside for a couple of hours and then go back to the boat for a couple of hours. The air feels warm but after an hour or so you realize your feet are getting cold and it is damp in there.
I am not saying you cannot or should not do this - only saying go into this with eyes wide open.
 
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