Kenyon Electric Grill/Electronics on Lithium Batteries

[whiskeynovember]

We are about to take delivery of a new R-27 OB luxury edition w/ lithium batteries and I'm looking for advice on running larger loads while on battery while out on anchor/buoy.

Does anyone have experience running the Kenyon electric grill off of the batteries? Curious how much load you see and any tips for battery management when using them. (Also, interested to know how this grill performs overall for cooking relative to gas!)

Would appreciate any other tips for running larger electronics like the water heater off the batteries and how much concurrent load you can manage. Thanks!

 

[Bruce Moore]

Bumping post delayed in moderation queue.

 

[DMD3]

I am wondering the same (won’t take delivery until next summer)…

From what I have read elsewhere we’ve pretty much accepted that this will mostly be used on shore power, and OK with that. Gas on range in galley while on the hook. May even leave it home or store in lazarette (if room) and get a rail mounted gas grill for the cockpit. Frees up the wet well. Maybe even set it up as an ice chest/cooler! 😀

 

[Submariner]

The Kenyon electric grill is a fantastic grill. It sears great, cooks awesome!! But off 12 volts, it'll pull upwards of 120amps as measured directly off a Victron battery monitor. Normal loads on the boat are 10 amps or less.

I was trying to find the post in Tugnuts...as I remember someone who had the LE specifically stated that to cook dinner at anchor on their Kenyon would use at least 1/4 of their house bank (the LiFEPo4 600ah battery bank on the new LE's).

I have the NW edition with an upgraded house battery bank. As an experiment, I've successfully cooked a couple hamburgers on it off batteries (3 Firefly Oasis G31's, for 348Ah). That was enough of an experience for me. 2 burgers, some bacon and toasted the bread. Took about 15 minutes, consumed 29.7amp-hours. I also had 22.5 amps from Solar helping at the time.

We only use it when plugged into shore power.

 

[whiskeynovember]

The Kenyon electric grill is a fantastic grill. It sears great, cooks awesome!!

Good to hear!

But off 12 volts, it'll pull upwards of 120amps as measured directly off a Victron battery monitor. Normal loads on the boat are 10 amps or less.

Yes, this was one of my concerns as well. I have been told that the battery can run other larger draw appliances e.g. the water heater at 750W/60amp and so I was wondering what the max recommended would be and inverter and wiring could provide the ~120amp load needed.

Did you decide to only use on shore power due to the concerns on the amp draw or due to batter capacity (or both)? I would prefer to use one grill so I'm trying to decide if we need go the gas route still for flexibility.

(I enjoyed your post and detail about your battery conversion/monitoring and grilling on battery which inspired me to look into this)

 

[Submariner]

Yes, this was one of my concerns as well. I have been told that the battery can run other larger draw appliances e.g. the water heater at 750W/60amp and so I was wondering what the max recommended would be and inverter and wiring could provide the ~120amp load needed.

Did you decide to only use on shore power due to the concerns on the amp draw or due to batter capacity (or both)? I would prefer to use one grill so I'm trying to decide if we need go the gas route still for flexibility.

Our Inverter is a 2000 watt pure sine wave. It's plenty big enough to run the appliances on the boat (one at a time).

I run the hot water tank with my upgraded electrical. But I leverage the engine charging at 20-30amps, and I time heating the water around the sunshine (around 11am - 2pm) where I'll see 20+ amps coming in from solar.

Looking back through my screen shots of the testing I've done... The reason I don't run the Kenyan BBQ on the batteries is this.
DC Loads - 130 amps (1,580 watts)
Solar providing 22.4 amps (277 watts)
House Battery Bank: 12.2volts, 92% State of Charge, -107.2amps (-1,304 watts).

Garmin Active Captain - Victron Power Management Display
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81076

The BBQ grill consumed 130 amps, solar puts in 22, that leaves 107amps coming off the house bank (load shared between 3 batteries. 35 amps/battery). The voltage drop that occurs is significant. I found that I'm only able to run the BBQ grill off the inverter as long as my battery bank is above 80% state of charge (without engine charging). Less than 80%, the inverter beeps, warning of low voltage. It'll operate while beeping, until voltage drops further and then the inverter will power itself off.

I'm able to run the hot water tank as long as I'm above 55% state of charge (again, without any engine charging). Firefly batteries offer greater capacity, deeper depth of discharge and a much longer lifespan/number of cycles than other AGM's but they are still an AGM battery. LiFEPo4 batteries may perform better with respect to voltage drop.

It's both capacity and amperage draw why I choose to run the Kenyan off shore power only. Its a hefty price to pay, electrically, to run that BBQ grill off the batteries. Whatever I consume from the batteries I have to put back into the batteries. 30 amps-hours consumed in 15 minutes for a couple of burgers is effort better spent on the propane stove.

At anchor, we use this on our propane stove top conversion to make it a BBQ grill.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=80168

(I enjoyed your post and detail about your battery conversion/monitoring and grilling on battery which inspired me to look into this)

Thank you!!

 

[Brian 27 OB]

I have 700amps lithium and a 3000watt inverter. The grill used about 65amps cooking a couple 8oz steaks. It worked well but was difficult to keep clean so I decided to pitch it and use the space below for cord and hose storage. I mounted a magma on the gunwale and tied it into the onboard propane. But like I said, it was totally usable. The air conditioning uses more power.

 

[BB marine]

My post is not to answer the question but to ask a question. I have read by two post in this thread that the input from the solar is 20+ amps. Is this measurement a total of the day or an actual charge rate of 20+ amps? My next question is how is this measured and kept track of? I ask this only because I am going to install solar on my boat. I did not have solar on my Cutwater and have never installed or used solar in the past. What size and what is the solar panel rating that is being used to produce 20 + amps hours of charge between 11am to 2pm? In my Cutwater the only way to replenish the amps consumed from my battery banks was to run the engine or my small 2200 Honda. I had 3 group 27 Northstar AGM for the house bank this was done by combining my house bank of two with the thruster battery with a battery switch while on the hook The total amp hour rating of theses batteries was 276 AH so at 50% 138 amp hour consumed. We could make it over night on the hook with this set up and by morning I would see 12.4 to 12.2V 50% . I needed to start up and go or if we planned on anchoring for the day it required running the generator for 3 hours or so to replenish some of the batteries back to a reasonable charge. We would cook, make coffee and use the generator for other 120V needs while charging the batteries. I would shut the generator off around 10am after running for 3 hours and then at dinner time I would start the generator again for cooking purposes and charging to replenish the batteries for over night use. My batteries would never see a full charge while on the hook. It would require a couple hours of running the Volvo with the alternator output of average 100 amps to fully charge. For this reason a 2 day stay on the hook was our limit. I saw the batteries down to 12.1 and 12.0 quite a few times after the second night. The boat we have now has a large pilot house roof I would like to install solar. I am looking for input as to how much solar output I would need to maintain the batteries for a few days without running a generator or moving on to another anchorage. I would say I will consume a minimum of 12 amps from the refrigerator and small portable freezer, I keep my AIS VHF radio on all the time, I keep one chart plotter on all the time, we consume 12V for showering, washing dishes, flushing and washing hands, listening to the radio, I will have my inverter on so a couple amps there even if it is not used. anchor light and lights in the cabin. Figure an average of 20 amps per hour. I just installed 6 group 31 DP wet cell batteries rated at 100AH for the house bank, 2 Group 31 DP wet cell for the thruster bank which I can combine with my house bank if needed. So I have a total of 400 usable AH but will consume that in a 24 hour time if no charging is done. I have not installed or used solar so I'm looking for information and sizing. Battery monitoring ideas and system ideas.

I am sorry to Whiskeynovember I didn't mean to highjack your thread. What started out to be a couple of questions ended up to be a story!! :shock: I thought that no matter what type of battery chemistry you have the consumption is the same so may be you can get some answers from this question too.

 

[Submariner]

I have read by two post in this thread that the input from the solar is 20+ amps. Is this measurement a total of the day or an actual charge rate of 20+ amps? My next question is how is this measured and kept track of?

So I have a total of 400 usable AH but will consume that in a 24 hour time if no charging is done. I have not installed or used solar so I'm looking for information and sizing. Battery monitoring ideas and system ideas.

I installed (2) 200 watt solar panels in series. 400 watts total. I installed a Victron Smart Solar Controller, MPPT 100/30 which gives me the instrumentation.

My battery bank consists of (3) Firefly Oasis G31 batteries for a total of 348amp-hours. This gives me 226ah usable since Firefly's can safely go down to 80% DOD.

NW Edition vs Channel Surfing Edition (Battery capacity comparison)
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81087

I also have a Victron BMV712 Smart battery monitor. To understand how I get 226ah usable, I explain my battery monitor setup in this YouTube video and I go over how I use the battery monitor in managing electrical.

Why do I need a battery monitor?
https://youtu.be/HDE4XtqQvN0

The +20 amps you've seen me talk about is real-time, actual charge rate of solar. I've seen solar go as high as 27 amps, but usually it's around 18-25 amps during the middle of the day (summer time, during boating season). The Victron controller also reports total watt-hours collected throughout the entire day. June/July time frame I would see between 2,000 watt-hours, and as high as 2,700 watt-hours, total, throughout the day. (watt-hours / 12 volts = amp-hours). 2000/12= 166amp-hours.

Solar Panels installed on my boat
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=80047

Victron real-time stats on solar showing 25amps charge rate at 11:33am.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=80059

Victron real-time stats on solar showing 22amps charge rate at 1:58 pm.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81093

Victron historical stats on solar showing the past 4 days with over 2,000 watt-hours.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=80056

Victron historical stats on solar showing another 4 day weekend with over 2,000 watt-hours per day.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81090

In Tugnuts, I have a write-up on my Solar upgrade.
http://www.tugnuts.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=18411

On our YouTube channel, we published the following two video's specifically about solar.
Upgrading Solar Power on our RT27-OB - How effective is solar?
https://youtu.be/M_BzO5R1AD8

Do I need Solar? What I spent and what I installed. How I sized solar, etc...
https://youtu.be/1SNjryjxYds

When I run the inverter, I try to leverage the sunshine to capture that +20amp charge rate from solar to assist the batteries (and engine charging) when powering the hot water heater which draws 65 amps. It's just less cycling of the batteries to time heating hot water around the sunshine.

 

[Submariner]

I would also add... how ineffective is solar... As the sun moves across the horizon, June/July/Aug are the best months... as we get closer to winter, performance will decline as the sun moves lower and lower on the horizon. June/July/Aug, I could count on at least 2000 watts every day the sun was shining for most of the day. Moving through September output is falling as would be expected.

At the unofficial Rendezvous earlier this month at Roche Harbor (September). We had a day of really great sunshine (1.33kwh, about 110 amp-hours) and we had the following day where it rained the entire day. Cloudy and rainy all day. We still saw 590watt-hours (about 49 amps-hours) captured in the rain.

Victron Stat's showing September sunshine and a day of rain.
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81096

 

[Submariner]

We are about to take delivery of a new R-27 OB luxury edition w/ lithium batteries and I'm looking for advice on running larger loads while on battery while out on anchor/buoy.

My advice is to upgrade solar. Go big. You have the LE with air conditioning. I have the NW edition. My objective was to be able to heat hot water while at anchor and spend several days at anchor without using a portable generator.

The water heater pulls about the same amount of amps as the air conditioner. However, the hot water heater shuts off once the water is hot. (less than 2 hours). The air conditioner draws 65 amp-hours every hour you run it.

With the 400 watts I have, summer time in the Pacific Northwest, that's at least 160amps a day I see.
If you went with a pair of 270 watt panels with a Victron Smart Solar MPPT 100/50. I think you'd see over 225 amps a day. Probably more, as the climates that demand the LE edition have more sun per day than the Pacific Northwest so your performance of solar is likely to be better than what I see.

 

[Submariner]

I would say I will consume a minimum of 12 amps from the refrigerator and small portable freezer, I keep my AIS VHF radio on all the time, I keep one chart plotter on all the time, we consume 12V for showering, washing dishes, flushing and washing hands, listening to the radio, I will have my inverter on so a couple amps there even if it is not used. anchor light and lights in the cabin. Figure an average of 20 amps per hour.

I would recommend installing a battery monitor first. Then you'll know for sure what your loads are. I suspect your habits may change. For example, on our RT27-OB, the amber cabin lights offer less light but pull a significant amount more wattage than the bright white cabin lights do (17watts for the amber lights, 7 watts for the white lights). If we're concerned about electrical, we would use the white lights over the amber lights.

Power Management Spreadsheet
http://www.tugnuts.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=81100

I can't send excel spreadsheets in Tugnuts, but would be happy to email it to you. The spreadsheet is easily modifiable to work with any boat by just updating all the appliances, their wattage requirements and the battery bank capacity. I put this together for the RT27-OB NW edition and LE edition (and the Channel Surfing edition, Ha!). You'd use the battery monitor as you turn things on and off and would see, real-time, the change in wattage. Thus, the boat will tell you what everything costs electrically. (The refrigerators are a bit more challenging since they turn on/off throughout the day).

With the battery monitor installed perform this test: Fully charge your batteries at the dock. Disconnect from shore power. (cover your solar panel with a blanket if you have solar installed). Walk away from the boat for 12 hours. When we came back to our boat, we noted -23 amp-hours were consumed. So I know that Channel Surfing will go through 50amp-hours a day, without us on the boat. (We have 2 refrigerators, AIS, and a few other things which are on 24x7).

 

[BB marine]

Submariner, Thank you for the information. I will research the equipment you mentioned and the install. It sounds like a system to model from. My thoughts were 400 to 500 watts worth of panels. I was not sure if the series or parallel was the the best way to go. I have read but not fully understood that the parallel wiring can give a slightly better output. Don't know I'm just now researching. It sound like you have a good grasp on your system and it is performing well.

 

[Submariner]

Submariner, Thank you for the information. I will research the equipment you mentioned and the install. It sounds like a system to model from. My thoughts were 400 to 500 watts worth of panels. I was not sure if the series or parallel was the the best way to go. I have read but not fully understood that the parallel wiring can give a slightly better output. Don't know I'm just now researching. It sound like you have a good grasp on your system and it is performing well.

In a perfect world, we'd have a solar controller for each panel. But that would mean running dedicated wiring between each panel and dedicated solar controller. The idea being, if shading negatively affects any panel, the reduction in output is only affected by that one panel.

Wiring solar panels in series is better in that it runs the voltage high while keeping the amperage low. Amperage generates heat as the power flows through the cable.

I don't have a shading problem at all on my roof, so wiring in series saved me money, let me use the 10AWG wire that was already installed by the factory and only required a single solar controller. I was able to maximize the most amount of power I could capture from the 400 watts and get that all into the house battery bank without having to run any new wire or change out any fuses.

If I had a mast (say, I was on a sail boat), I would have wired in a port and starboard solar controller. The solar panels on the port side I would have wired in series, to the port solar controller. Repeat for the starboard side.

I also wouldn't wire in series more than 2 panels. Primarily because it's already odd looking to see 70 volts DC. Imagine if I'd of hooked up 4 panels together in series as was at 140volts DC. Most folks look at DC as tame, not gonna electrocute myself. But 140volt DC would probably bite a bit harder and may surprise someone else working on my boat, not in a good way.