New! Live Webinar this Thursday 4/2/20

Enjoyed the 1st 1/2, great job! But had to drop for work... Hope someone hit the record button, or at least look forward to looking back through the material once it is posted somewhere.
 
Hi Everyone, thanks for joining us this morning and thanks for all the great feedback!

The plan is to have an email out to all attendees by this afternoon. That email will have a link to see the recording of the webinar on youtube. It will also have a link to a dropbox folder that will contain a pdf copy of the presentation, a excel worksheet of the Q&A log, and a copy of the DC power management document.

I will also post the youtube link in this thread. For anyone who wants the DC power management document now, it's linked in the attachments sidebar on the homepage of tugnuts.com

We will announce next week's topic soon. The first few episodes of this series are based on the questions that we get asked the most at the factory.

Thanks for all the suggestions in this thread, email, and text. We hear them and they're great! We're looking forward to working many of them into future presentations.

Sam
 
Enjoyed the Webinar, I learned a lot, showed me how little I was shown about how the boat is setup and how to use it.
 
Great Webinar Sam. Where can I download the Excel spreadsheet?

Thanks,
Dave
 
daveme":2yacwazj said:
Great Webinar Sam. Where can I download the Excel spreadsheet?
Thanks,
Dave
Dave,
It is on the top of the attachments section on the left side of the TN's home page.
 
I found the spreadsheet and I want to customize it for my R-27 which is a 2016.
D3-220 HP diesel may have a different charging output than the D4-300 or the 300HP OB, what is the output of the solar, is the refrigerator draw different on the R31?.
It is a great aid for power management!
 
bluestreak":86fyfvzb said:
I found the spreadsheet and I want to customize it for my R-27 which is a 2016.
D3-220 HP diesel may have a different charging output than the D4-300 or the 300HP OB, what is the output of the solar, is the refrigerator draw different on the R31?.
It is a great aid for power management!

Check out https://pubs.volvopenta.com/publications//47708920 and you’ll see the alternator output is 180A./14V. That seems to be the standard on the D3. I haven’t been able to find a curve relating output to rpm but it is possibly quite low. Maybe the factory could comment as there are a lot of D3 boats out there. I will say that I always start the engine when I use the inverter on the hook. Even at idle turning on the microwave definitely increases engine load as you can tell from the shift in tone but the battery voltage doesn’t drop below 14V. That would indicate that the alternator is producing enough power for the inverter. Just my observations.

Check your fridge model on the boat. I suspect it’s the same.

I have a 2017 R25Sc and the solar output shows on the display where you can also check battery voltage. It’s described in the presentation.

Hope this helps
 
Sam,

Can we ask you questions now on the past webinar. Then on the next one you could answer them. I did come in late, a family problem come up. Some had to go to work and some it was just bad timing for them. Some question may come to mind later.

Please your thoughts on this.

Thanks!!
 
good morning! As promised, here are the important links from yesterday’s presentation:
• YouTube video of presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj_am-e ... e=youtu.be
• Dropbox folder containing a pdf version of Andrew’s presentation, an excel file of the Q&A log, and a copy of the battery usage calculator: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x39enzb027so ... QP5Ma?dl=0
• Product links:
Watt Meter: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0777H8MS8/re ... HEbHK43F1R
Battery Monitor (from Points North Seminar): https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-M ... 420&sr=8-2
Clamp multimeter: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems ... 369&sr=8-1
 
This is super helpful. Maybe add a few videos to the Youtube channel showing the elements you discussed on a real boat - a kind of follow-up walkthrough?

I'm very grateful that you are doing this. My boat is held hostage by Covid-19 and this gives me an outlet.
 
I am not YET an owner but have been looking hard at the R29, R31, and the C30. (I want diesel, not outboard). I have a few questions and a few comments.

1) While the webinar was intended for owners to maximize their use of the boats, do not underestimate its value to shoppers like myself. It was extremely valuable to me.

2) Until this webinar, I did not appreciate how well Fluid has equipped the boats with power. Your flyers mention AGM batteries but I had not focused on them. Nowhere do they say 4 house batteries. I had to do a deep dive into the owners manual to find that out, after you mentioned the 31 had 4, and I now see the 29 does also.

3) Until this webinar, I would not have appreciated what 4 AGM house batteries would do for me from a practical standpoint. Even had you listed 4 AGM in the flyer, it would not have meant much. Now it does. Its a hard thing to sell, but its really a great aspect to the boats.

4) An observation / suggestion: switches, individual readout devices and so forth seem littered around the boats in various odd places based on where there is a flat surface to use. The scattered nature seems to cry for more centralized organization into an easily accessible spot. The use of the quarter-berth / midship-berth kinda-sorta upsets that berth as a clean and organized guest bunk. Perhaps it isn't possible, but maybe an organized bank of all of this located in the forward cabin on the bulkhead facing the berth, that backs to the head? Or alternatively, on the bulkhead backing to the head coming down the stairs into the cabin (yeah, there is the door that folds into that). Cover the panel with either a wood door or smoked glass and it would still look cool, and it would be more accessible than having to lift a dinette seat when guests are under foot, and would be close to the helm station. What brought that really to mind was the advice to switch on and switch off devices actively to conserve power, and one begins to picture lifting the dinette seat in the 29 up and down all day.

5) The issue of consolidated information on power flow usage and battery power available seems to be a problem begging for a clean readout solution. Pull all of that together onto a screen based on solid data from sensors, or into an iPad app, and you have a patent-able product that solves a need the way Garmin has pulled a lot of data onto their screens. Especially if you made it more of a full to empty readout. Like a gas tank.

6) Air conditioning isn't a big deal in the PNW but it is in the East / Southeast. What does that draw? Can that be run on battery power, or is shore / generator a basic requirement when on AC? The question was highlighted by the comment the ice maker was a shore / generator power only device.

7) After getting focused on AGM batteries and doing a basic google search on pros and cons of them, I see advice to draw them down to 50% before recharging to prolong life. So: a) how does the solar panel interplay with that aspect? b) how does a use of motoring out to some picnic cove for the afternoon, use batteries for a few hours (say 20%) then motor home with engine recharging them, interplay with that aspect?

Once again, a fine job with the webinar. I look forward to future installments.
 
im watching the recording as I couldnt make the session and I have a question on the parallel switch use at minute 30.

the video talks to connecting the house and engine battery with the parallel switch if there is a big load on the house battery (water heater).
the reason stated is because the ACR will not connect the engine and house battery if the volts is too low on the house battery and the house will not get charged from the engine as a result.

My understanding is this

1. hot water heater is connected to house battery
2. engine battery is full at reading above 13.8volts as it is charging since the engine started
3. house battery load is drawn down to 12.2 volts because of load on house battery from heater
4. the ACR has the following spec
Relay Contact Position
Combine 30 sec 13.6V @ 12 V
Combine 90 sec 13.0V @ 12 V
Open 10 sec 12.35V @ 12 V
Open 30 sec 12.75V @ 12 V
Open High 16.0V @ 12 V
Over Voltage Lockout 16.0V @ 12V
Under Voltage Lockout 9.5V @ 12 V
(As a safety feature, some ACRs prevent combining into a severely discharged battery. A dual-sensing ACR will monitor the voltage on both batteries and will not connect if either battery is below the undervoltage lockout level. Use caution when combining into a battery with extremely low voltage, because this might represent a faulty battery or a problem elsewhere in the system)

The video claims that the ACR will disconnect the engine and house battery in this case. my understanding is the engine acr is measuring the volts on the engine battery to make the determination to connect the engine and house batteries together and not measuring the volts on the house battery to make this decision.

In essence this makes the need for the parallel switch redundant in this hot water use case as the voltage of the house battery doesn't matter. Its the voltage of the engine battery that matters.
The use case that the ACR is really designed for is the reverse. Where the ACR for the engine battery disconnects from the house battery when starting to avoid the start load voltage drop from causing the voltage drop to effect sensitive electronics on the house battery like the chartplotter.

what am I missing?
 
As I have mentioned in my past posts, I am not an owner yet. But have a Cutwater 30 on order. So please take my comments with a grain of salt.

Going though the demo boat a 2019 It has a Isotherm hot water heater. Isotherm does not make a 12v D.C. water heater. There are only two (well you could say 3 shore power) ways to make hot water. Ether by the 120v A.C. or off the engine. Note the Excell sheet, the hot water heater is rated at 750 watts. Off the to of my head, thats about 6.5 amps at 120v A.C.. If you enter one hr. in the that cell, your amps go up to 62.5 due to the fact that its running off the inverter.

Now one thing that I am not seeing is inverter loss. Most inverter will use about 8 to 10% of the load. Just to keep number round, at 10% the hot water heater is really using 68.5 amps. Yes, the hot water heater will cycle off and on bring that load per hour down.

On #2: With the engine running and not too many thing on. You should be reading closer to 14 to 14.2 volts.

On #4. I think that both the House and the Starting volts do matter. If ether one drops down too low the ARC will disconnect. Looking the schematic, the battery charger is only connected to the house batteries. I have never owned a inverter/charger, a inverter and a multi bank charger, yes. So if I am missing something, sorry. But lets say you over used your thuster battery in docking. Tie up, shut your switches off and plug into shore power. The ARC may not close due to under voltage. The same could happen to the engine battery, but with the engine running the charge voltage would be there.

I would feel better with a 3 bank charger. Yes, the two ARC would close and the charger would see one big bank. But if there was a under voltage to one bank. The three bank charger would keep the other two banks up.
 
For those watching the webinar and reviewing the presentation please remember that it was based on what’s in new and recently built FM boats.
The thing I learned was how much has changed in terms of installed equipment over the past decade. My 11 year old 25 Classic doesn’t have built in cockpit refrig, television, wine cooler, ice maker, electric oven, microwave or electric stove, generator or a/c, diesel powered heater, solar panel, etc..
And the models and brands of what we do have from engine to cabin refrigerator do not match the ones mentioned in the presentation.
Our hot water heater gets hot from engine heat while underway and we get cabin heat underway that way too. The kerosine stovetop doubles as a cabin heater while on the hook without drawing current.
In 5 seasons we have not used the inverter once because (as the spreadsheet shows) it just uses too much “juice” while at anchor, no need for it when on shore power and too bouncy to use 120 v appliances while underway.
All that said, by converting to all LED, adding 2 more house batteries and a big solar panel with a MPPT controller, I think with good power management that up to 6 comfortable days in a row on the hook is possible without need to run the engine.
Having that kind of capability opens up lots of great exploring in the PNW!
 
Gavin,

Per Blue Seas specs, if either battery exceeds the “combine” threshold the relay will close. The relay is not only looking at the engine battery. Once closed the the batteries are combined and the voltage will be the same on both terminals. The ACR will open if the draw on either bank (in this water heater case it is the house) is sufficient to pull the combined terminal voltage below 12.75 for 30 seconds. Depending on how stiff the alternator regulator is I presume that this could occur even under charge with the very large load of the water heater.

In any case this would only apply to you if you were trying to heat water via at anchor (or dock with no power). Without the boat in gear, creating a load, you likely cannot get the engine temp high enough to open the thermostat and heat the hot water via the engine coolant. Underway, however, your inboard system creates all the hot water you need. This discussion was really only focused on the outboards that do not have that luxury.

Iggy,

Our boat (R27 Classic) has a 3 Bank Charger (Pro Mariner 1220). I assume all the boats do but I am not sure as Fluid Motion has used a lot of different charger/inverter combinations. As you state, this issue does not apply with a 3 bank charger (though the ACR’s do defeat the benefits of a 3 bank charger when they combine).

Curt
 
Curt and all,

Thank you for offering your help on these questions. You are correct in that the hot water heater only works to heat water via 110 power (& Inverter depending on the model) or the engine if it’s an inboard. Combining the engine and house battery via the parallel switch will disable to ACR function so the house is not relying on this for charge. The alternator would be directly feeding power into the single engine battery and all house batteries. You have to be careful about doing this and understand the power it can take. Using it at anchor or without a heavy charge from the engine wouldn’t get you very far.

For questions, I think you should plan on emailing our customer service team directly. I would be more than happy if you wanted to copy and paste the question and response to put it in the thread. It becomes tough to manage all of the different questions that come up. Don’t forget to ask the questions during the presentation and that way we will have the question and answer sheet available for download.

Here are our direct emails.

Tim Bates
Timbates@rangertugs.com

Kenny Marrs
Kennymarrs@rangertugs.com

Andrew Custis
Andrewcustis@rangertugs.com.

Thank you all for watching! Stay tuned for the follow up coming next week. We’ve decided on a topic we think will be valuable for all. It’s tough to keep them from going shorter than a couple of hours so we are breaking them into segments. The next will be about Garmin!
 
Great Webinar!

I have a 2017 31CB.

The inverter/charger is located in the cockpit port locker. There is a rotating switch next to this unit. Is this switch to turn the charger on/off, the inverter on/off or does it turn the who unit on/off? What is the recommendation for how this switch should be set at the dock while on shore power? and at anchor?

Thanks much,
Bobby
 
If it is charger/inverter there is a battery switch required between the house battery bank and the charger/inverter. With this type of system in order for the batteries to get charged the switch must be on. In order to use the inverter the switch must be on. If you are at anchor and not using the inverter and not charging the batteries with the generator you could turn the switch off. If you kept the boat on a mooring ball with no shore power while not on board I would keep the switch off. Any time you do not want the inverter for use or the battery charger for use turn it off. The charger/ inverter uses the ACR to charge all the batteries. There is only one output and the distribution of charge is done through the ACR's.

download/file.php?id=555

The Cutwater C24,26,28 possibly some Ranger models use a ProMariner 1220 or 1230 charger which distributes the battery charge individually to each battery. ACR's are not used for distribution. The inverter battery switch goes directly to the battery house bank. In this case the switch can be or should be turned off when the inverter is not required. This will not effect the shore power charging from the ProMariner.
 
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