Normal (?) Experience, new C30

[SJI Sailor]

There are many messages and people saying "this is normal" for issues with new boats. However, I suspect many new owners (like me) do not understand how issues combine into a total set of problems.

So I wanted to share what we have experienced in the first 6 weeks with a new 2019 Cutwater 30 sedan. I've been told that all of these are "normal" ... although I am surprised by how many "normal" defects there are.

We love the boat, yet these problems have been disruptive. For example, we canceled a week-long trip because of concerns with the stuffing box and leaks. The trip had been planned for +8 weeks after delivery, under the (incorrect) assumption that would be enough time to get a boat ready.

Following is our list of issues. For each one, I've added the status (where "+" means fixed, "-" is not fixed, and "me" means that I personally fixed it as opposed to warranty service).

Significant issues
Oil leak from engine [-]
Fresh water leak approx 8 gallons per day with water pump off [-]
Stuffing box leak, then overtightened by service, slinging packing material [-]
Water leak into cabin from roof (port navigation light was not sealed) [+]
Steering extremely difficult to starboard; delivered with low steering fluid [+]
Radio microphone broken [+me]

Unclear significance
Fire extinguishers not installed [+me]
Fuses blown on forward and aft bilge pumps [+me]
Erratic communication between Garmin and Volvo (e.g., no engine data in chartplotter) [-]
Areas of potential hull delamination identified by surveyor [-]
Current leak with microwave [-]
Could not update Garmin using ActiveCaptain; endless errors. Bought Windows laptop to use SD card instead. [+me]

Minor / Fit and Finish
No smoke alarms installed [+me]
No MSO delivered with dinghy; required dinghy registration wasn't done [+me]
Many screws, wires, cable ties, fiberglass, etc., in bilge [+me]
Spacer broken on master berth platform [+]
Bubbles in vinyl accents [-]
Screw loose from fiberglass for boat hook [-]
Canvas snap popped off windshield; reattached [+me]
Raptor deck installation (boat show incentive) [-]
Garmin AIS 800 installation (add on) [-]
Factory anchor, to be returned to us when Rocna anchor was added [-]

We are working on all of these, as best we can. Responsiveness from the Cutwater dealer has been erratic at best (OTOH, Tugnuts has been great and reassuring). I'm not complaining or seeking resolution here, just wanted to share them as an N=1 data point for a new C30 owner. Thank you to everyone on Tugnuts for all the support for those of us new to the community!

 

[Shano]

We also had a fairly long list of issues that eventually got sorted out -- some by the dealer and, like you, quite a few of the items we fixed (because frequently it was the fastest way to go). Your list does seem a bit long but it looks like you are on it and all I can suggest is continue to hold the dealer's feet to the fire and get it all fixed up and get boating! As for normal I think that the factory/dealer should be spending more time on getting the bugs out before the boats go out the door. We did get excellent aftersale service from our dealer up here but it would have been nice to have a shorter "list" when we first got our boat. In your case things like a freshwater system leak should have been fixed before the boat left the dealer (imho). Feel free to PM me if you can't get through to your dealer on a weekend or after hours and I may be able to help.

 

[Andrew Custis]

Thank you very much for posting about your experience on the forum. As we never want to see these kinds of issues, many of them we have seen before. The major thing I see missing from this post is how the orientation went on the boat. The number one reason we require our dealers (as well as ourselves) to complete this is to ensure everything on the boat is operational and functional before you leave.

Even though we are the builder, we require our team to do a pre delivery inspection on the boat before we deliver. This goes through our initial checklist on what we found and gives us another opportunity to address any last minute details. On a Cutwater 30, we do two complete days which will range anywhere from 12-20 hours of on the water training. During this training, we identify things that need to be addressed with a plan of action before you head home. Typically, we have everything done and completed by the end of the second day on the water or at worst case, the third day.

We just delivered a 30 yesterday from a couple that flew in from Florida. They left very happy and satisfied as this is now their second Ranger Tug and now Cutwater 30. We are not flawless by any means but we do have systems in place to help with this and make your experience the best. If you would please reach out to us at the factory and let us know where the boat was purchased, we will request a copy of this orientation experience to see how it was handled.

I will also touch base with our dealer representative to find out why the communication is erratic and make sure we have someone assigned to assist you and make this the best experience possible.

Thanks again,

Andrew Custis

 

[SJI Sailor]

Shano: thank you, and that is great advice. We are eager to get out soon and often -- and being in the PNW, will meet you sometime in person, I am sure 🙂

Andrew: thank you for the details about your process and the orientation experience. I will follow up with a PM [probably tomorrow] to share more details about the delivery as you suggested.

Cheers, and we look forward to seeing many fellow RT/CW folks in Roche Harbor (if not sooner!)

 

[davidr]

Our experience with our 2017 CB30 has been very good. A few minor bugs...float switch on aft bilge pump was bad and we had the shower sump pump stick in on position. I paid for new bilge pump and shower pump was replaced at the Cutwater/Bellingham Yacht rendezvous last July. I loose a little bit of engine coolant but can't see any leaks. It appears that the low coolant level warning is quite sensitive.

My depth sounder is intermittent. For some reason, at times it will show no reading but if I change the screen to a sonar view, the depth reading comes back.

The stuffing box is annoying...seems to need frequent attention. My last boat has a dripless seal and I want to investigate the cost of having one installed. Maybe at the next haulout for bottom paint. At the CB30 price point, I would think a dripless seal would be standard. Having said that, the dripless seals can fail too and I understand that if they fail, lots of water comes in! Andrew....any comments on this would be appreciated!

I have found that the Bellingham techs have been great to work with.

 

[Godspeed]

As for one specific item, the shaft seal, I gave up and had a dripless seal installed 2 weeks ago. A special tool is required to be manufactured (a piece of flat steel with a shortened socket welded to it) to remove and install the seal. The cost installed was about 1400 dollars in my case.

Contact me if you want more details. I got tired of a wet bilge and spray on the generator housing from the packing style seal.

Brian

2015 C30S

 

[Harry]

Had the same shaft issue when boat was new. Bellingham replaced packing with a higher quality Teflon packing material. Has been great since no adjusting required to date. (2 years) Harry

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Harry]

Our experience with our 2017 CB30 has been very good. A few minor bugs...float switch on aft bilge pump was bad and we had the shower sump pump stick in on position. I paid for new bilge pump and shower pump was replaced at the Cutwater/Bellingham Yacht rendezvous last July. I loose a little bit of engine coolant but can't see any leaks. It appears that the low coolant level warning is quite sensitive.

My depth sounder is intermittent. For some reason, at times it will show no reading but if I change the screen to a sonar view, the depth reading comes back.

The stuffing box is annoying...seems to need frequent attention. My last boat has a dripless seal and I want to investigate the cost of having one installed. Maybe at the next haulout for bottom paint. At the CB30 price point, I would think a dripless seal would be standard. Having said that, the dripless seals can fail too and I understand that if they fail, lots of water comes in! Andrew....any comments on this would be appreciated!

I have found that the Bellingham techs have been great to work with.

David, Check your hot water heater. You'll have to get back in there. I had a loose hose clamp. No more low coolent.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[gigharborite]

I also purchased a 2017 CB30 last summer and have experienced similar issues.

Unable to get the stuffing box adjusted properly. I am considering retrofitting with a PYI or Lasdrop dripless seal. Anyone with an opinion on which is better?

I also had a shower sump float switch that would not turn off (even though I have never used the shower).

I also have the small small mystery leak of coolant davidr reported. I have been unable to located the leak.

I had a survey completed on the boat prior to the expiration of the warranty (I recommend this for anyone purchasing a new boat). The survey found many other defects that need to be repaired, none of them major but certainly the cost of the survey was far less than having to pay for the repairs of the defects found.

 

[Salty7]

I had a small coolant leak which just about drove me to drink trying to locate it. Eventually, in desperation, I wrapped a strip of old white cotton t shirt material around each heat exchanger fitting on the water heater. After running the boat for several hours I pulled the strips off and voila they were stained with coolant. I had checked the hose clamps and they all felt tight. Now I removed the clamps and replaced them with ABA clamps. Of the four clamps I removed three were stripped, I have now replaced numerous hose clamps on the boat because they are just not very good clamps. Last four boat trips, not one drop of coolant missing, I hope I have finally won that battle.

I had a pair of PYI dripless seals on another boat and was not very happy with them, they had a tendency to spritz the engine room when the boat was working hard in a seaway. The Lasdrop seal has a good reputation but I have no personal experience with it, suggest ask a yard who has installed several.

 

[Skookum]

Just had a survey done on 2016 RT29. I was disheartened by the amount of delamination in the deck and one in the hull. The factory said this normal. Okay normal, but not good. When we go to sell these boats are we to tell the buyers not to worry it’s normal? I need to be convinced normal is okay.

 

[Wee Venture]

My depth sounder is intermittent. For some reason, at times it will show no reading but if I change the screen to a sonar view, the depth reading comes back.

David, if you haven’t done so in the last 6 months or so, try installing the latest update on your Garmin chartplotter. I had the same problem: when I turned the chartplotter on and went directly to charts, the depth would not show. Garmin representatives confirmed to me at that time that it was currently necessary to first switch to sonar for the sonar to begin reading. An update since that time has fixed that issue however.


Our boats are extremely complex systems of interlocking subsystems. Sometimes the answer to a problem is an update, sometimes user education, sometimes repair or replacement of a part, instrument or subassembly (I have experienced all of those). With regard to user education, I have found Tugnuts to be invaluable.

We purchased our R-31CB direct from the factory a little over two years ago. It had some issues (which we expected in a new boat) but the list was much shorter than the one in the original post. We did participate in the two day orientation and signed off, along with the factory guy doing the orientation, on an extensive list of items as a final verification that they were in functional working order as delivered. And at least in our case, I know they actually did a sea trial of the boat before I ever got to board it, because I talked to the guy who did it. He told me about the checklist they go through on the water. And they are proud of their manufacturing process; they invited me to come visit the boat in the factory as it was being built, and take pictures if I wished. I took them up on that.

I know with Cutwaters, you are going through a dealer (as well as Ranger Tugs sold outside the Seattle area) and that is a step removed from the factory. But I have heard great things from owners about the dealers too. As far as the factory goes, their customer service in our case has been spectacular. They have gone far above and beyond what I would have expected in responding immediately to questions and making things more than right when there was a problem. I know what I have said is small comfort when you are the one with a long punch list in your hand, but I believe the factory will will work with you and the dealer to make things right.

Looking forward to seeing you (happy I hope!) on the water.

 

[jagizzi]

The loss of engine data on the Garmin is a network issue between the Volvo gateway and the N2K network. It is not intermittent but can seem that way if you vary the order in which things are turned on. Turn all of the Garmin devices on first before turning on the ignition for the Volvo. All should be good.

If you turn on the Chartplotters then the engine and get out of the harbor and decide to turn on the autopilot you will lose the engine data. You can get it back but you have to go all the way back to turning everything off, including the ignition, and turning on the Garmin first.

You can convince yourself that this is the case easily at the dock. Vary the order and confirm but I am guessing that is your issue.

 

[palle]

Another work around if some indicators are missing is to power everything off. Turn off house and engine rotary switches. Wait a few minutes. Turn on house and engine rotary switches. Then turn on the various devices.

 

[gigharborite]

David, I purchased a demo C30CB with about 80 hours on it in July 2018, probably from the same dealer you did. I have had mixed success in getting warranty work done (after 1 year there are still a few open items), but I have not been told “no” on anything, they are just very slow. Keep a detailed list and check items after they claim the repairs have been completed. Another suggestion, I did a survey a few weeks before the warranty expired. This helped me find many new items which are covered by the warranty and saved me 3-4 times what the survey cost, so you may want to consider doing that.

Read Tugnuts and pay attention to the problems other owners are frequently having and have your boat yard check those items each winter. I have made a few modifications based on suggestions of other owners (like replacing the Garmin autopilot pump and changing to a dripless packing bearing) to hopefully preempt problems later on.

Don’t buy the car analogy, boat builders do not have the same kind of assembly processes. Does it bother me to spend money changing out new components? Yes, but I own the boat and need to be proactive in making it right.

 

[BB marine]

Don’t buy the car analogy, boat builders do not have the same kind of assembly processes. Does it bother me to spend money changing out new components? Yes, but I own the boat and need to be proactive in making it right.

The marine industry has tried to compare itself to the Auto Industry for years but it will never happen. The marine industry as very little governing it. USCG makes sure that boat manufactures meet the small list of safety requirements and the ABYC sets (RECOMMENDATIONS of standards) and the NMMA provides stickers to place on the boats that meet the ABYC standards. The boat manufacturer pays a fee to NMMA for each boat that is certified and the manufacture pays an employee that has been trained by NMMA to inspect and approve the certification. It's an honor system. The marine industry has had so many players come and go throughout the years. I worked for a dealer in the 90's selling Sea Ray's. Sea Ray started building boats in the 50's and survived the 60's, 70's, 80's,90's and still building today. A new manufacture hit the market in the 90's Mariah boats. Mariah boats offered a limited life time warranty. Mariah built a boat with all the gadgets, well thought out and appeared to have quality through out. Selling Sea Rays at boat shows, I had many prospective buyers comparing the Sea Ray to the Mariah. The big selling point for Mariah was life time warranty. A company that had been building boats for 6 years. I would comment to buyers" its easy to put a lifetime warranty on a boat when the company has only built boats for 6 years. Mariah probably will not be around for 10 years". Mariah closed the doors 2001. Look at the amount of boat manufactures that have come and gone, it's not the Auto Industry and never will be.

We purchased in 2016 New. I believed Fluid Motion was a quality boat builder. I still believe that today. I don't think they build any better or have better customer service than many of the other players in the industry. What they have is a well designed, unique style boat and a good following of customers. Like any boat manufacturer things will be missed during the build. When manufacturing is slow the boat quality will be better. When manufacturing is busy and build requirements are demanding quality goes down. There is no governing party that over see's the building process like the auto industry has. I believe that purchasing a boat from the factory and dealing with the factory for warranty issues gives you your best chance of satisfaction. Most manufactures don't offer this and many dealer frown on this concept. The dealer is in direct competition with the manufacturer. This plays a part in the dealer network ( My opinion) and getting warranty work done. The net work is small. Owning a Cutwater in Illinois and needing warranty work which I did. Where do I go? I purchased from a dealer in Michigan that didn't have a service department. The next closest dealer was Perdido key Florida. My choice was fix it myself. That did sting at first but now it is status quo and after 4 years of owning the boat I have most of the factory flaws repaired and have a well built quality boat that we really enjoy. Ranger and Cutwaters are no different than any other boat boat manufacturer there are going to be flaws, as long as people keep purchasing them they will be around. If the boat fulfills your boating needs, you like the design, you don't mind the price, buy it, enjoy it and expect there will be issues like any other boat.

The most important thing to do when purchasing a Ranger or Cutwater because of the extensive standard equipment and build process is spend the time with the factory or dealer going over the inspection check sheet (If your not comfortable doing this because of lack of boating experience hire a surveyor). Confirm everything is working ,installed properly, finishes are good, Sea Trial is complete. Have all punch list items fixed and inspected then finalize paper work and close the deal on the boat. Take delivery of the boat and enjoy. There will still be small issues its a boat! You will have a better understanding of the boat if you do this.

 

[Matty]

In response to BB marine’s comment - not often that you see a level headed say it like it is post on a forum but I have to say that post sums it up perfectly. You don’t have to like it or agree with it but that is the way it is. Better to understand that and just enjoy your boat. That, after all, is the intended purpose.

 

[SJI Sailor]

Another thread today (http://www.tugnuts.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17794) reminded me that I should update this one. This post is just an update to "close" the topic, in case it's helpful to others!

Overall, since the time of the first post in mid-2019, we have been very happy with our C30. There have been no new important quality issues or major defects found. So it was a matter of fixing relatively minor initial oversights.

However, there is one caveat: the dealer used subcontractors (mobile marine techs), who were sometimes worse than no service! For example, they "fixed" a leaking hot water expansion valve by capping it -- which meant no pressure relief, and a few months later the hot water tank's gasket failed. Another time, they "fixed" the shaft stuffing leak by over-tightening it (and then it became impossible to adjust properly, and needed replacement). They also incorrectly installed the freshwater head conversion (the new water line touched the engine belt!)

After the first few experiences, I stopped using the dealer's service because I thought it was too risky. When we found an issue, I either fixed it myself or paid for a competent shop to handle it.

A high point, however, was attention from Cutwater / Fluid Motion themselves! In particular, at the 2019 Rendezvous, we had service calls from FM and Garmin techs, who advised or fixed many of these issues. Another high point continues to be the discussion, help, and community here on TugNuts!

To update the original list from 2019, here is the final status and some notes:

Significant issues
Oil leak from engine [+] Fixed by Pacific Power during Volvo initial delivery service.
Fresh water leak approx 8 gallons per day with water pump off [+] Fixed after FM (thank you, Marco!) identified the problem (the dealer ran a freshwater line in front of the engine, and -- impossible-to-see -- the belt cut a hole in it)
Stuffing box leak, then overtightened by service, slinging packing material [+] Fixed by replacing it with graphite packing.
Water leak into cabin from roof (port navigation light was not sealed) [+] Fixed by dealer adding sealant.
Steering extremely difficult to starboard; delivered with low steering fluid [+] Fixed by dealer tech adding fluid.
Radio microphone broken [+me] Fixed by me ordering a replacement (and strengthening it with rescue tape)

Unclear significance
Fire extinguishers not installed [+me]
Fuses blown on forward and aft bilge pumps [+me] No recurrence. I suspect it was related to factory debris in the bilge.
Erratic communication between Garmin and Volvo (e.g., no engine data in chartplotter) [+] Learned to turn Garmin on first.
Areas of potential hull delamination identified by surveyor [+] FM examined them, explained how they were false alarms.
Current leak with microwave [-] Haven't done anything, but have experienced no problems. Rarely use.
Could not update Garmin using ActiveCaptain; endless errors. Bought Windows laptop to use SD card instead. [+me]

Minor / Fit and Finish
No smoke alarms installed [+me]
No MSO delivered with dinghy; required dinghy registration wasn't done [+me]
Many screws, wires, cable ties, fiberglass, etc., in bilge [+me] It took a few months and dedicated searching to find them.
Spacer broken on master berth platform [+] Dealer tech fixed this.
Bubbles in vinyl accents [-] Still there. I need to needle these and press flat (if not too late).
Screw loose from fiberglass for boat hook [-] Still loose. I need to drill out, back, and epoxy it.
Canvas snap popped off windshield; reattached [+me]
Raptor deck installation (boat show incentive) [+] Was done a few months after delivery. We love it!
Garmin AIS 800 installation (add on) [+me] Added myself; easy but need a PC laptop and long USB to program it. Also needed the extra antenna (both 800 unit and antenna are in the cabinet behind the helm).
Factory anchor, to be returned to us when Rocna anchor was added [+] Dealer eventually returned our factory anchor.

Main point: sadly, it seems that all new boat buyers (not specific to RT/CW) have to expect a list like this. Many seem to be much luckier -- but I also think this list is not particularly exceptional. A key variable seems to be the dealer's diligence with inspection, and the quality of their tech team. But we are quite happy now, both with the boat and with support from the factory!

Corollary: don't plan too much in the first 2-3 months with a new boat. Play it safe and get to know the systems.

 

[dclagett]

SJI Sailor

I would disagree with your main point. All new and used boats I have purchased, 9 in all over 60 years, have not had anywhere near as many problems as my Ranger Tug. I really like the Tug, however it has cost me many thousands to get it where it needs to be. Overall I think the RT is a good solid boat but the QC is very poor and since I purchased it used I had to fix the problems out of my wallet. I had a very good survey which found problems that the selling dealer fixed. However a survey does not take the boat apart to verify how it was constructed and that is where the QC problems were found as I used and maintained the boat.

 

[serpa4]

It is unfortunate that we cannot have better quality control on things that cost more than a house. If we find these things in a house (not that much!) we can have it fixed and not kill us. Things on a boat can kill us.
It's unfortunate that everyone says it normal when we should not expect it to be normal. To accept defects and poor quality as normal is just ashamed. Wrong in every possible way.
A good quality check by FM or the dealer should eliminate 99% of issues, BEFORE ANY CUSTOMER see it. I'd also say that it really should be FM and not a dealer doing the work. The dealer just accepted a poorly assembled, no-QC boat. They should not have to accept it in the 1st place.
Unfortunately it is also in the RV industry.
Imagine buying a 350,000 car and having all those issues! It would not be accepted by ANY person.
What changed in the car world? Imports.
When we have viable options being shipped in from Europe, South Africa, etc. and sales go down, things will change. The US car industry found out too late and imports flew into the US. The US auto industry said, you have not choice but to buy our Piece of S. cars. Times changed.
I do love my C30, but fit and finish could be much better. There were no other boats that met my needs over FM C30. I'd definitely buy my boat again. However, if there were more/other choices, maybe I wouldn't.
It really is a sign of literally not caring. An assembler 99% of the time knows he did something wrong. He knows he didn't put a 2nd hose clamp, he knows he left hole saw circles laying in the bilge, he knows the vinyl has bubbles when he installed it. They know when the screwed the panel in place that the screw was stripped, they know this stuff absolutely. They simply don't care and the factories do nothing about it. Because the consumer has no choice.
I wanted a trailerable boat, 10' not 10'3". I wanted large fuel tanks, large holding/fresh water, want relatively good MPG, want diesel, want 2 beds, want decent top speed, etc. No other boat fit this. Beneteau Swift trawler would have been sweet, but too wide. This other boat would have been great, but 79 gallons diesel, this boat had 30 gallons black, etc. C30 was the only boat to fit my needs.
Great boat, but room for improvements. I have not regrets on my purchase at all as it fits all my needs/wants. Plan to use the crap out of my boat!
P.S. customer service is a big plus. FM delivers great Customer Service. Thanks to them for that. They always call me back, help order parts, etc. friendly people and it helps. Customer service is lacking so much these days.