R21-EC Enclosure Details

[SGIDAVE]

Hello All,

I am planning an enclosure for my 21EC which will attach to the factory Surrey Top Option. I've looked through the photos section of this forum and found a few pics of enclosures. This has been a big help.

For those with enclosure, I would like to know:

-What features do you REALLY like?

-What features would you change if you could?

I'm interested to hear how you like the stretch cord along the bottom rather than snaps, zipper placement, etc

I know I will need to divert the rain water off the pilot house roof from draining into the cockpit. I've read a few threads dealing with how to do this ranging from the professional fiberglass modification job with new gelcoat to simple blocks screwed in place and drainage holes drilled into the side of the roof ridge. I will be going the "simple" approach to begin with.

Fair Winds,

/david

 

[Gin]

David, we had an aft enclosure built for our R27 this fall and are very happy with how it turned out. I posted questions here on the forum similar to yours and got lots of good thoughts from others. There may be some that would apply to you, and you can read them here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4081&hilit=+enclosure

Good luck!

- Gini

 

[Speedbump]

Hi David,
We had the Enclosure added to our existing Surrey after a couple of years. Mixed feelings.
The Enclosure in general is great. We mostly use it spring and fall. Seldom in the summer. We are on a New England lake and pull for the winter ice.
Mostly we install it, leave it on, or remove it completely (leaving only the surry). Storage on a R21EC is tight and there is no easy way to roll up the panels.
We do actually like the Bungee Cord bottom attachment.
I was concerned at first but it works well, allows ventalation (needed) is rather easy to undo/redo, and has never failed.
Nice to have it on the outside rub rail for elbow space but use caution that it does not contact the dock.
Of bigger concern is the sewing quality, enclosure zipper to the surry.
It failed upon install (before we used it). The zipper stitching to the surrey top was poor quality.
This may not be an issue if both are new (surrey and enclosure) but it sure bothered us.
You're on your own for installation, absolutely NO INSTRUCTIONS included. It's mostly straight forward but you do need to plan on some time to figure it out. Rather common sense but labeling panels and some basic installation would have been nice. Spend some time planning the forward edge snaps before you drill the fiberglass.
There are no "doors". You unzip a panel and hold it aside. Doable, but a entryway of some sort would be much better.
There are panels/flaps for the cleats. All the rest I like and have no issue with.
I have not yet settled on how I want to address the cabin roof drain but it does need to be fixed. I have installed several temp ideas but am still looking for one I like. If you settle on a new idea please forward.
Hope this helps.
Dick

 

[Tugalong]

Hi David,

We had a custom camper back made for our R21, because of our severe sunshine and my very fair skin we had 2 biminis made, a front and rear which zip together in the centre. The idea was we could have either or both open when cruising. To date we have never opened either. The height of the bimini is about 250mm higher then the cabin roof and we had a clear pvc panel in this section to allow light in and also to avoid the fully closed in look. The thing we haven't resolved is the gutter around the cabin and the water when raining drains into the rear section of the boat. My idea was to have the end of the gutter fibreglassed in and put a short stainless steel tube through the cabin wall to drain the water off the roof. I have had a couple of quotes but they were cost prohibitive. I am trying to come up with an acceptable alternative.
We have full side curtains with clear pvc panels, 2 each side, one across the stern, and 2 access panels at the cabin. The rear panel has a zippered section about the width of the swim platform for access. Basically there are clears all the way around except for the 2 rear corners. The clears go to just above the gunwale and there is a small section of canvas below the gunwale. We have "plastic studs" riveted to the boat below the gunwale and each panel has 3 elastic loops to tie down the panel over the gunwale.
All the panels zip together and we have a very waterproof enclosure, except for the cabin roof gutter issue. It is important to have the enclosure go just past the gunwale because this ensures the water runs over the side and also if it is windy there is little wind gets inside the area.
All of our panels are removable or we can roll them up when not required. We have slept numerous times on board and we have been very pleased with the outcome.
I am also looking for ideas for the "gutter" solution. Maybe a piece of 3mm Perspex stuck to the cabin using white 3M VHB double sided tape could look neat and then some 12mm SS tube expoxied or Sikaflexed into a hole drilled from the exterior wall into the channel would work ?
Geoff

 

[SGIDAVE]

Gini, Dick, Geoff - Thank you all for your replies.

Dick, I wonder about the 'sturdiness' of the existing surrey top to handle having 9 panels zipped to it to enclose the cockpit. Seeing that you've had trouble with the zippers pulling out is concerning. I've purchased some sunbrella fabric and it seems significantly heavier than the surrey top that came with my boat. The new sunbrella I'm comparing to is the standard stuff not the heavier versions. The surrey top fabric just seems very light-weight. It DOES have zippers already installed; that's where I came up with the 9 panels - there are 9 zipper segments. And thanks for posting the pics. Do you have any SCREEN panels to allow ventilation and keep out the bugs? Maybe that's not nec'y in your area.

I don't see any straps at the top of the Strataglass panels...is that why you say "...there is no easy way to roll up the panels"? Do you happen to know the thickness of the clear panels (20, 30, or 40 guage are the common thicknesses)?

Gini, I looked up the thread you started...that was a big help too - thanks.

Thanks again!

/david

 

[Tugalong]

Guys,

I just have an inspiration, block the end of the channel with piece of 1.5mm/2mm thick SS plate, have a 12mm diameter SS tube welded into the plate and bent around the cabin to discharge down the cabin wall outside the canopy, the plate could be fixed the cabin using 3M VHB double sided tape. The stainless could be polished and I think would look very neat. This overcomes the problem of drilling the cabin etc. Just need a handy metal worker to do the bending and welding !

 

[SGIDAVE]

Guys,

I just have an inspiration, block the end of the channel with piece of 1.5mm/2mm thick SS plate, have a 12mm diameter SS tube welded into the plate and bent around the cabin to discharge down the cabin wall outside the canopy, the plate could be fixed the cabin using 3M VHB double sided tape. The stainless could be polished and I think would look very neat. This overcomes the problem of drilling the cabin etc. Just need a handy metal worker to do the bending and welding !

Oh, that's an elegant idea. I'm not proficient welding stainless, so will need to inquire about that.

I was planning to go "low tech." At the top, right of the Tugnuts homepage are links to several related pages. One is for Port Nut. He has pics of several nice mods to his 21EC. I was going to copy his solution...here it is

With my luck, I'll screw up the drainage hole and end up with water coming into the pilot house :cry:

We'll see...

David

 

[Speedbump]

David,
Ours also had the 9 zippers installed on the Surrey but we had to send the Surrey so they could “Match” the panels to it.
Tuglet is a 2009 and also came from GA. We purchased in 2011. 2 years GA year round sun and 3 years NH summers may have taken a UV toll, but the surrey and enclosure are from the same company.
I agree the Surrey fabric weight seems light but the panels do not appear to be too heavy. Of bigger concern is the amount of pressure the Bungee Cord Hold Downs exert. Given the choice, I would increase the fabric weight.
We have been through several “blows” and were never uncomfortable with the enclosure attachment. But the boats windage is increased.
As far as the clear panel “weight/gage thickness” it is memory at the moment. The enclosure is in storage and unavailable till spring for a look. I do remember I was pleased with its thickness.
The 9 panels appear to be just right. On the sunny spring or fall days we have run with the first two panels (midships step) removed (stored ashore) and it still remains quite warm. Not doable in rainy weather but sunny days it works well. There is enough greenhouse heat to make me thing you are correct in looking for screens. As mentioned, we use the Surrey 100% of the time but hardly ever use the enclosure in the summer.
New Hampshire has “Black Fly” season but otherwise we do not fight many bugs. We are mostly underway when aboard. It did not cross my mind till you mentioned screens, and they were never offered at the time we had the enclosure made.
There are no attachments/straps to roll up the panels. I am sure I could add them but just have not found the urgency to dig out the needle and thread.
Despite the disappointments listed we very much enjoy the enclosure. A fall foliage tour around the lake is wonderful when everyone is warm and toasty.
Are you having a local company sew the panels or going to the factory vendor? I think you have some excellent ideas on fabric/clear panel weight, screens etc.
Dick

 

[SGIDAVE]

Thanks for the additional comments Dick.

I'll be sewing the enclosure myself. At least, I've worked up the gumption to TRY to make one myself. I started out last fall calling King Canvas in Seattle; they too told me they would need the surrey to match up the panels. The price was shocking, so that got me thinking about learning a new skill. I figure I can pay for my sewing machine plus materials to make the enclosure and still be hundreds ahead over buying the enclosure from King. I would like to have screens but don't really like the look of the clear plastic with screen material ALWAYS there too. Kinda obscures the view. I MAY simply make 2-3 screen panels which can be exchanged for the clear panels when we want ventilation. I've watched videos of how to make enclosure panels and, while combo panels with clear ("glass"), screen, and/or canvas (for privacy) CAN be made, it gets very complicated with multiple zippers, etc. The plan for my enclosure is still evolving...

Regarding durability of the factory surrey...I haven't looked closely at mine to try to determine if it was sewn with PTFE thread (the kind that is IMPERVIOUS to UV damage, Tenara is one brand); IF it was sewn with bonded polyester (standard thread), it will degrade in UV and require "re-sewing" every 3-7 years, depending upon your UV exposure. From what I can tell, most canvas shops charge a little extra to use the PTFE thread (it costs 4-6X MORE than bonded polyester). I knew NOTHING about canvas thread until recently. I recall paying $10 extra to Corinthian when I had my 21EC carpets made to have them edge-bound with the PTFE thread. At the time I didn't realize how GOOD that decision was. I will try to use the PTFE on my enclosure but that will depend whether my machine will sew it; I've read reports where some people have a lot of trouble getting it to work in their sewing machines. In any case, my surrey is, at most, 2 seasons old; I will use it until it fails then consider re-doing it. It would be very straight forward to make a new surrey.

I'm curious about the gauge of the clear material since I would like it to be easily rolled up. I've watched a vid on the Sailrite website which is very informative about the clear materials available. As I understand it, the 40 gauge is the thickest and most durable but is not really meant to roll up. The 30 gauge is somewhat roll-able and the 20 is definitely roll-able. I will likely go with the lighter stuff. I use my boat all 4 seasons here in the GA/FL area, nonetheless, the enclosure is probably a 2 season affair. If someone has an opinion that 30 gauge is BETTER in my situation, let me know.

david

 

[Stewartlockwood]

Hello David

I have an older 2005 model 21 that has a full canvas enclosure. The fastener system at the bottom (small bungee cords and knobs) works very well and very little rain gets inside even during wet Vancouver winters. The original owner had the whole set up installed when he bought it and it was quite expensive - $10000 I think he said ! Dont need the screens out here, but I imagine they could be added. It seems very sturdy and I have seen no signs of any wear, or UV problems with the threading. All panels do roll up. It would be nice if I could open up at least 1/2 the roof in the summer, but cant have everything. I am not set up with any photos on this site yet, but if you email me at slockwood@vectorlaw.com, I can send you some photos.

 

[rt11002003]

Hi David,

"TUGLET" spent its time in GA in a covered slip, so the surrey top was exposed to direct sun light only when the boat was operated. And, during a three day span when I was having bottom paint applied.

Sounds like you're enjoying her. 😀

gene

 

[SGIDAVE]

Hi David,

"TUGLET" spent its time in GA in a covered slip, so the surrey top was exposed to direct sun light only when the boat was operated. And, during a three day span when I was having bottom paint applied.

Sounds like you're enjoying her. 😀

gene

Hello Gene,

Indeed I am enjoying my 21EC. So, "Tuglet" was the boat you sold when you transitioned to the RF246? Now that the RF246 is sold, do you mostly sail? This 21EC really grows on me...I like her more all the time. Very well-thought out boat!

/david

 

[rt11002003]

David and Dick,

My msg about TUGLET was intended for Dick. 😳 Sometimes I'm not as alert as I should be.

David, I know you and I have exchanged msgs about R21ECs. I'm keeping up your comments, along with all the other R21EC owners, including Dick.

I'm still prepping a S2 7.9 (sailboat), hoping to get sailing soon. At the same time, I'm hoping to find another R21EC.

gene

 

[Speedbump]

Slow response by me - I do not get to this site everyday.
Hi Gene;
Indeed, we are enjoying Tuglet. Systems are holding up well, some repairs, but as expected, Some additions but overall the same boat. You kept her well. She is slightly small for us, I would have liked a little more boat (perhaps 23') but Ranger does not think that would sell and the 25 is just more boat than I want/need. The grand kids very much like Tuglet.
Like you, I miss the sailing and have started a restore of a CD Typhoon as a daysailer, summer launch is hopeful.
Dave;
Sorry to have hi-jacked the thread. I am very interested in the enclosure build. Please be sure to update us as you go. Lots of good ideas. Moving the Thruster switch is a great idea. I am installing a small solar panel on the mast this winter and am considering moving the switch since seeing your pictures. Do you find that you bump it at that location?
Dick

 

[SGIDAVE]

Slow response by me - I do not get to this site everyday.
Dave;
Sorry to have hi-jacked the thread. I am very interested in the enclosure build. Please be sure to update us as you go. Lots of good ideas. Moving the Thruster switch is a great idea. I am installing a small solar panel on the mast this winter and am considering moving the switch since seeing your pictures. Do you find that you bump it at that location?
Dick

Hello Dick,

No problem with the thread...it's all good.

I think you are looking at someone else's album pics. I would LIKE to move my thruster switch down near the throttle/shifter but haven't gotten around to it yet. Actually, I'm not sure I even CAN move it there given the heater fan control is there now. Along those lines I would like to swap the fuel gauge and wiper switches. Since the fuel gauge is ONLY looked at (NOT TOUCHED) it makes far more sense to mount it closer to the wheel hub (where the wiper switches are now). Then, the wiper switches could be moved to the right (AWAY from underneath the wheel so the operator could use them - conveniently).

I will try to keep the forum up to date on the enclosure as it comes together. At the moment I'm doing some Vberth mods...like adding a 2" memory foam topper to the cushions AND cutting each one diagonally (from the forward corner where the head sits diagonally forward to the side) such that what was once a one piece cushion will now be 2 pieces. This entailed removing about a million staples from the underside of the Vberth cushions to get the fabric covers off. Again, look at the pics in "Voyages of the Portnut" link at the top right side of the main Tugnuts homepage for a general idea of what I am trying to do. Essentially, by cutting the cushions, I can easily access the storage underneath the Vberth.

Also, I received the hardware to install a table base in the little door in the deck that flips up just aft of the motor box. This idea came from the Portnut too. I guess I should send him a royalty payment for copying his mods. I removed the little door tonight by unscrewing the hinge screws. I will need to cut a large hole in it to FLUSH mount the base for the pedestal. Its a Garelick kit made of cast/extruded aluminum. Very light and should be easy to deploy and store. I will make a table top with some mahogany or something.

Anyway, there are several 'mods' either underway or planned. The aft enclosure is the most ambitious I think.

Fair Winds,

/david

 

[bymiller]

David,
I am presently working on an enclosure for my 21ESC with a surrey top. Two more panels to make.

I bought the video from Sailrite and found it worthwhile. As with all canvas work there are many ways to solve a problem and they present one way. I used the 20 gauge Plastipane. One reason is that the width it comes in is wide enough for a panel. I opted to make 7 panels by putting two zippers on each side panel and two on the rear panel. I bought a used Sailrite sewing machine on Ebay several years ago and would highly recommend it. It is the basic straight stitch machine but the walking foot seems to me to be an absolute necessity to sew things this large and heavy.

I have over $500 in material alone and appreciate why having panels made is quite expensive.

My surrey top appears to be a vinyl clad type of Sunbrella and is rather heavy material. With the Sailrite sewing machine I figure I could replace a zipper on the top without too much difficulty. As far as thread deteriorating I went with the regular thread. It costs about $13.00 a spool versus aver $100 for a spool of the Tenara. The seams sewn for the zippers on the tops of the panels are under the flap of the top and not exposed to the sun. The zippers between the panels would be exposed but mine will only be deployed for rain or possibly on trips in the spring and fall and those seams would be easy to resew if necessary. Sailrite was using Tenara on the panels they made in their video. They mentioned that it will cause some skipped stitches even on their machines.

One other thought. Sailrite shows the use of their Dur-Skrim patterning material which I also have used to make a couple bimini tops. I would highly recommend it!

When I get mine done I'll try and post some pictures.

By

 

[SGIDAVE]

Hello BY

Thanks for posting...it's good to know someone else is making an enclosure for their 21EC.

Did your surrey top come from the factory? Mine appears to be sunbrella but it is not as heavy as the marine grade sunbrella I purchased from Sailrite. There is definitely NO vinyl coating or cladding.

My surrey top has NINE zipper segments around the perimeter. I under stand what you say about consolidating two of the side panels into one (making nine panels into seven total). Mine has a center aft zipper with "corner" zippers as well thus the "aft" is composed of THREE panels... I don't see how I could combine two of them without creating asymmetry. Combining all three would be too large, I think....Maybe your surrey is set up different from mine.

Are you going to have any screen panels?

I've got the Sailrite LS-1 as well. It's a great machine!

Please post pics when you can.

/david