R21: need suggestions on backing up

B

Buckwheat

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
8
Fluid Motion Model
C-24 C (Sterndrive)
Just put my 2005 R21 in the water yesterday and had difficulty getting out of and getting into our slip. The first try was driving into the slip....easy. BUT backing out was challenging as it did not seem to want to answer to the helm in reverse. Yes, there was a wind that was pushing us but the stern should have answered. Prop wash, either low or high, did not seem to matter that much. Regardless of the amount of helm, the stern wouldn't kick over ( yes, the rudder was operating OK). The second experience was when we decided to back into the slip. Again, the stern would not answer to the helm for the same reason and the wind ws very low and was insignificant. Now I know why the newer R21's have the bow thrusters! My old sailboat had more response than this!

Anyway, some of you more experienced R21 operators may have some wisdom that you could share that would ease my experience.
 
You're correct; the bow thruster is a great help when backing down. Single screw inboards are difficult to back down, some more than others. 🙁 My Albin 27 Aft Cabin, without a bow thruster, did it better than my R21EC does without using the bow thruster. :? I don't know if it's the underbody design, keel or hull, or whether it's the weight, or maybe even the windage. :?

One person suggested turning the helm all the way over to the stop in the direction opposite the direction of the prop walk and leave it there. Then use short throttle bursts to move the boat back and forward. He had been driving an Albin 28 TE for about ten years. He knew exactly how the vessel would swing in an arc and used that arc to move it to the slip.

I always attempt to back into my slip without using the bow thruster. I need the practice. My tug will respond to the rudder when backing down at very slow speed. On Wednesday night, I had the tug half way into the slip and a small breeze hit and forced me sideways. (In case you R21 and R21EC owners haven't paid attention; the forward half of the boat presents the largest area for the wind to act upon. 😱 ) The boat pivoted, moving the bow (and cabin) toward a roof support, which is padded. But, to avoid the support, I used the thruster. I could have powered forward and tried again, but didn't.

When it's windy, slow speed doesn't cut it. 😱 Straighten the boat out in a position considering wind drift and back down with gusto. :shock: Be prepared to go forward if you miss the slip. I don't know of any other way, except to use spring line which only works when docking sideways.

Peggy and I rode in A R21EC in Chattanooga, TN, with a guy named Mario in Dec. 2008. The thruster battery was disconnected for the winter. He moved that tug around better than I've ever seen anyone move a single screw vessel. Just short throttle bursts, and lots of helm movement. So, I know it's possible to manuever these little vessels. I just need to practice.

Gene
 
With both Karma (R-29) and Solitude (R-25) we put the helm over hard to port when backing. The prop walk causes the stern to go to port when backing. When the stern started to come around to port, we will give it a short burst in forward to straighten ourselves out.

I do very well backing out of the slip...... pulling in forward, well that is a different story. Maureen normally puts Karma into the slip. I always seem to over shoot it and have to use the thrusters.....

We always try to do it without the thrusters knowing that one day like everything else they will fail.... and they will always fail when you need them the most......

Another thing that I do is, I watch other folks move their vessels about in reverse. There is an older gentleman in our marina with a 30 something Chris Craft. He has a single screw with no thrusters. I love to watch him go in and out as he makes it look so easy. Back up, small shot of forward, back up some more, a little more forward..... he just keeps working his vessel out. I wish I could do it as easily as he makes it look, maybe in time.

One of the things that we did when we first got Karma was to go over to the empty guest docks (during the week when you have no audience....). We practiced for about an hour docking and backing out. The good thing about doing it in an empty guest dock, no boat beside you or behind you. If you bump into anything, the only thing you may scratch is your own boat.

Keep practicing.... sooner or later we will all be as good as the old guy down the dock from me....
 
All replies have hit on the only point that made it possible to always place my 21' in the slip and lift stern first. That is to use reverse for backing down with short bursts of forward to align the stern to the desired direction. A lot of wind just requires more practice to set your starting point in relation to the slip entrance. Since the bow does sail in the wind I would pass the entrance going upwind and then start the swing to back down.
Life is almost easy now with my C-Dory and outboard. It can be fun learning to backdown a 21' tug, so good luck to you.
Ron
 
Thanks to all of you who replied to my query. We are going out this morning to practice ramming some docks :lol:
Just kidding!!!
 
We felt several good thumps here at our house in Pennsylvania this morning..... I take it the docking practice was a hit. 😱 😉 😀

We are also beginners at backing down a single screw boat (or any boat for that matter). Reading as much as can be found on the subject of boat handling, asking questions of those more experienced, and lots of practice are all very much a reality for us. My wife and I are also soon to become members of our local Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla and hope to tap into some of the great opportunities for learning that will be presented to us there.

Eric
 
Eric,
As the old folks from NY say, back until you bump..... Then you know its time to go forward..... Oh, wait a minute..... that's in their Cadillac in Boca......

Practice makes almost perfect! Another couple of years and I think I may have it!
 
Hi All
Other than the challenge of backing up, any other little nuances to know about when considering an R21? What do you love or not love about your R 21?
Thanks,
Harmony
 
I find that utilizing the giant rudder and pulsing the throttle in reverse [with some gusto] will produce steerage in either direction with the R 21 . Don't be afraid to give her the hydrocarbons !
Marc
 
Marc is correct. Unless you get water moving over the rudder, all the prop will do is move the boat, not turn it except for the small amount of prop walk. Practice it out away from the pier in calm water with little wind and you'll see what we mean.

Charlie
 
I agree, it's what they taught is in Coxswain's school in the Navy. Water must be moving past the rudder so you have to get enough forward/reverse motion to overcome the prop walk. This means goosing the throttle to get the boat to move and then putting it in neutral and steering.

Cool thing though, you can use the prop walk to bring your stern up to the dock. Just come into the dock slowly at an angle then goose it in reverse and, just as forward motion ceases, slip it into neutral and watch the stern slowly swing up to the dock. Takes some practice but it is pretty cool because it looks like the boat is docking itself.
 
Marc and Charlie are both correct as far as their description of the way the 21 responds. But let me add: my 21 is slow to respond to those throttle bursts in reverse. It may travel a boat length, or more, before responding and will be moving fairly quickly when it does. Much more quickly than I like to maneuver in my marina. And, with the clunky marine gear (transmission) on my tug, one loses even more distance. Crash 😱

My tug will respond sluggishly to the rudder when backing down in idle, most of the time. So, I manage to get into my slip, unless I have to contend with wind. Then, the bow thruster is needed. As I've mentioned before, my Albin 27 backed down much better than my R21 does. Different boats perform differently. 😉

I've been sea trialing a 30 foot sailboat recently. 😀 It has a fin keel, 5' 6'', balanced inboard rudder. The distance to the dock behind is about 35 feet and boat in the slip next to me extends about 8' past the end of its slip (we're rebuilding docks, that boat is usually on the inboard position of the dock). That 30 foot sailboat is almost like driving a car backward and maneuvering in that tight space. 😎

Gene
 
This may sound provocative but I don't think a 21 foot boat requires thrusters.With a little practice a skipper can manouvre a single screw boat without difficulty. They do not suffer from propellor pull as an outboard motor does. I have had no trouble manouvring the 21 forward or back. It turns in its own length and as long as you keep sufficient water pressure over the rudder ie speed, it is easy to back and fill. In fact I have found its helm very responsive.
Cheers,
Ogger
(ps sent this from my iPad while on board my 21, drinking a hot coffee in a cool and cloudy day on the Swan River. What more could anyone want.)
 
Gosh Ogger
I was jealous enough that you are out there tuggin' around on your R21, but did you have to mention that you posted from your ipad while you're out there? Sheer heaven. Those things are so cool. I understand that there are lots of nautical applications. As if it's portablility isn't enough. Are you using G3 or G4?
Harmony
 
Using the G3 network - all thats available in Australia at the moment. Its great
 
Currently, Apple mobile devices are exclusively tied to AT&T's network in the U.S., which is limited to 3G.

There is ongoing speculation that another carrier option will be available in the future. AT&T announced it will accelerate subsidy eligibility for current subscribers who plan to upgrade to the iPhone 4 introduced by Steve Jobs at yesterday's Worldwide Developers Conference keynote. This suggests AT&T has one last chance to extend contracts with current (and new) users before the option is introduced. No one knows when that will happen.

4G is currently available on a location limited basis from Clearwire (through Sprint, Comcast, others). AT&T, T-Mobile, & Verizon are using a different technology. Sprint and Verizon, with their own branded handsets, are the current leaders. AT&T and T-Mobile probably won't deliver 4G until 2011.

Cheers
 
We will be launching Levitation this morning... I am sure I will end up using the thrusters given the rain gusts slapping at the windows on the house this morning... The major problem is that the rudder on the R25 (and I assume R21) is way too small... Their engineer needs to trial an articulated rudder with more area... It will cost a knot at top end, but will increase the utility of the boat considerably...

denny-o
 
Their engineer needs to trial an articulated rudder with more area... It will cost a knot at top end, but will increase the utility of the boat considerably...
Click to expand...

I have no frame of reference for the larger vessels, but, as with all things in life, the real answer is balance. Yes, a larger rudder would be nice, but the price we would pay in lost top end would not, in my humble opinion, be worth the tradeoff. I have mentioned this before with reference to this topic, but a Half Price Books used edition of Chapman's Piloting would be a great investment for any newer mariners. I learned to back my R21EC with help from this book, but I also learned a lot about things many newer boat owners would never dream about like the art of anchoring, rules of navigation, and many others. I concur with Ogger in that these are sophisticated vessels that need practice and education to master. Learning to take advantage of the prop wash when back the boat is necessary skill.

Texas Steve
 
Well, the old "bump and grind" seems to be working. I've only destroyed three slips :lol:

I did find that I needed to goose the throttle far more than I was and "yes" the ship picked up more speed than I liked but it would answer to the rudder a bit better. Then whack it into forward and give it another goose and straighten it out a bit, whack it back into reverse and goose it again. Do as many times as necessary to get the attention of your fellow boaters who rush over and offer to help you...............................................

Ignore their subtle laughing and shaking of their heads!

Thanks for all the responses!
 
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