Reverse Gear Problem

Brian,

Thanks for the ZF customer service number. I will run by them the question I have on the ZF electric control block being compatible with the VP electronics. I found out from Harbor Marine that the VP control block is made by ZF for VP, however ZF will not supplly their delears with that part. It would be nice if I could get a complete reverse gear replacement from ZF and have it be compatible with the VP engine.

I am also quite worried about the incompatibility between the ZF transmissions and certain damper plates which may have caused my failure. The repair facility I will take the transmission to is also a ZF dealer and and they are the folks that first told me about the damper plate problem. They asked me to remove the damper plate and bring it with the transmission. So I think I have the right people to work the problem. I am just trying to figure all my options.
 
Update on transmission failure.

The rebuild facility, T&S Marine, has taken the transmission (VP HS45AE-C) apart and found that the clutches failed and jammed the transmission into reverse as I was going forward at about cruise speed. This also destroyed the flexible coupling in the damper plate bolted to the engine flywheel. T&S has seen this same failure before on Cummings diesels and it was due to an insufficient damper plate which has been corrected in the Cummings applications. They have not found any reference to this problem in Volvo Penta applications. I hope my failure is not due to the damper plate, there does not seem to be a solution for VP.

T&S suggests that I go with a new ZF-Hurth transmission since rebuilding my current one would cost more than a new transmission. However, since the Volvo transmission is proprietary and also made by ZF, it is not completely compatible with a new ZF to work with the VP electronics. The shifting block on the Volvo Penta is different from the ZF-Hurth and the bracket that holds the transmission oil cooler is different. Luckily these items can be transferred from my Volvo to the new ZF without much labor. Cost for the new ZF is about $2200, a new Volvo Penta I have seen a number at $10,400. I called VP Customer Service and they will not give me any information on cost, etc., you need to go thru a dealer. I called several dealers and the only one that talked to me said to go to T&S Marine, that’s what I did. In addition, if T&S cannot find me another non-VP flexible coupling, I will need to get it from VP at $1200, about 4 times the cost of non-VP couplings.

The costs are also going up at the yard that removed the transmission. Haul and block boat to remove prop zinc to provide room to back the shaft from the transmission. In order to remove the damper plate, the engine bell housing needed to be removed. This required the engine to be raised off the mounts and the heat exchanger removed along with a bunch of hoses, brackets, etc.
 
We are still waiting for the new ZF reverse gear from Italy. I assume it is tied up in the supply line problems affecting our country. The other part needed, a damper plate, I was able to get in less that 24 hours from Volvo Penta. Once I get everything together I will identify parts & effort to resolve a complete reverse gear failure on a VP D3 with a HS45AE-C reverse gear. Hope this information is not needed by anyone, however it will be hear if needed.
 
Thank you for keeping us updated on the issue with your transmission dclagett. This type of information is valuable. I am sorry you have to go through this but thanks again for sharing.

Terry
 
I received my new ZF Reverse Gear today to replace my broken Volvo Penta reverse gear. Only took about four months direct from Italy. Hopefully no one has this problem, but if you do and your reverse gear is Volvo Penta HS45AE-C you "MAY" be able to use a standard manual shift ZF45A reverse gear. I say "MAY" because apparently VP has ZF modify the standard ZF45A to provide better fluid flow within the reverse gear for use with higher HP & RPM engines. VP designates this modified ZF45A as HS45AE-C. So how does one know if a ZF45A is a replacement for their HS45AE-C? Google ZF45A specification and compare you engine specs and intended boat use to the performance specs of the ZF45A. The main items you are looking for is your engine HP & torque curves based on engine RPM and make sure they fall within the performance ratings for the ZF45A. The ZF has several specifications based on your intended boat use: pleasure, light duty, medium duty, and continuous.

So once you determine that the standard ZF45A will work for you, you then must modify the new ZF45A by:
(1) remove the manual shift block on the back of the new ZF45A reverse gear and attach the electric shift block from your old HS45AE-C.
(2) Attach the oil cooler bracket from the HS45AE-C to the new ZF45A.
I would have a ZF dealer do the work to make sure you maintain the 1 year warranty.

I have had some conflicting information in talking with VP, ZF and several dealers, however I believe what I stated above is correct. I would encourage anyone about to replace there HS45AE-C with a ZF45A do their own research before proceeding.

What I purchased and cost.

ZF45A part number 3311001015 , $2000
Gasket for shift block $19.20

Total cost from dealer with modifications made plus tax: $2140.35
 
Thanks for posting all the information about the ZF/ Volvo Penta reverse gear. I have followed this thread and read each post. The repair facility has given a few possible causes of the failure. Their first reason for the failure was caused from the damper plate either being mismatched for the engine excessive flexibility or too rigid. Most marine engine manufactures use a variety of reverse gears. I have seen Cummins, Cats, Yanmar's with ZF, Twin Disc and Hurth. There are a few different torsional coupling used and this is where confusion comes in and there will be the case of the mismatched coupler. With Volvo Penta boat builder packages the engines come in as an assembly. There are times when boat manufacture does break down an assembly to get a transmission out to a dealer for warranty reasons but for the most part the assemblies are matched by Volvo. The biggest issue with Volvo is their lack of communication about the product. Everything is confidential. They are not willing to give information out to dealers or customers about their products and the components. Just marketing information. My point, the chances of a mismatched component is slim. The chances of a failed coupler on a D3 with an output of 150 Hp if the install is correct possible but I would not think it is common.

The best information is root cause. There have been a few reverse gear failures posted this year on TugNuts. The engines I believe were D3 power plants and HS45AE reverse gear. I spoke with a marine transmission rebuilder in Chicago area. Federal Marine Transmissions INC. I had found small chunks of clutch fragments in my filter after the second oil change. I send my oil samples out at each change to be tested. I received a report of material to large to analyze from Blackstone. They recommended that I put 25 hours on the new oil and send another sample in. When talking to the gentleman at Federal transmission he told me. The 45 series is a light duty aluminum case reverse gear that if good alignment is maintained and oil is replaced on a regular frequency it is reliable. He also said do not use aftermarket filters and replace the o-rings with new every time you clean or replace the filters. When cleaning or replacing the filters do a good inspection. He stated that proper installation of the filter is very important. Do not drop the filter into the housing. It must be placed on the o-ring located on the cover. The seal on the bottom of the filter housing needs to be inspected and replaced if it is damaged or deformed. A good seal of the filter is necessary to prevent debris getting into the pump and valve assembly. Failure to do this will cause, pump, valve assembly, bearing failure and clutch failure.

I took his word for this. I did drop the filter into the housing the first two times I changed the filter. After the information was given to me I researched the filter replacement procedure. It was not in the Volvo manual but it was in the ZF manual. My next several oil samples came back good. There was still a few metal fragments that I assumed were settled in the bottom of the housing from the early detection and were residual. I never had any issues with the reverse gear.

Why am I posting this? If the rebuild facility can not say what caused the failure. Use your past information into the process of finding the root cause of the failure. I usually blame a factory defective failure when the component fails soon after put into operation. If the component last 100 + hours it normally is build right. If a component failed after 500 hours and should have lasted 2000 hours there was a weak link or a reason for the failure. Knowing the reason will help stop a repeat or help others from experiencing the same issue.

If the repair facility took the gear case completely apart they may have a good explanation of the failure. This information is valuable to you and to others. I'm sorry you had this experience with your Tug. Thank you for posting the experience the information will I'm sure help other Tug and Cut owners.
 
Brian,

Thanks for your comments.

The reason I don't think my engine/reverse gear came together is that when the dealer transfered the warranty only my engine was listed on the certificate for the 5 year warranty, the space for reverse gear was blank. Also the sticker on the engine cowling where it lists the engine serial # looked like the end was peeled up to put the reverse gear serial # on the cowling.

The reverse gear was completely dissassembeled. What was found is that several clutch plates broke and fell into the base of the reverse gear which then shifted the reverse gear into reverse while the boat was cruising forward. This failure stopped the engine abruptly and destroyed the damper plate.

As for the damper plate it actually fits inside the flywheel. Looks to me like a unique design, so I am not sure if any other options from a different manufacture would be available. There is however an option with Volvo Penta of an additional weight applied to the reverse gear side of the damper plate. This additional weight is not on my configuration and through the local VP dealer it was traced back the VP in Sweden to not be needed.

So I am left with 2 possibilities for the failure. The first is installation of the oil filter. Since I owned the boat the oil and filter have been changed yearly. I installed the filter according to the Volvo Penta manual for my engine/reverse gear configuration. As I found out from reading your earlier post this past year I have been installing the filter incorrectly. That was confirmed today when I read my new ZF manual. So this may have contributed to the failure.

Second, my engine was not installed in the boat correctly initially which led to an alignment problem. When trying to repack the stuffing box it was noticed that the propeller shaft was not in the center of the shaft tunnel, it was centered but low. With further inverstgation it was found that the cutlass bearing had failed and the shaft was rubbing on the stuffing box. The fix for the alignment since the engine mount was already at the top of the adjustments, we had to put 3/4 inch blocks under the mounts to provide sufficient adjustment. The engine was out about 1/2 inch low on alignment. This is significannt and had to put strain on the reverse gear output shaft. I suspect this contributed to the failure.

After all the problems I have had with my RT25SC, I would suggest thoes with inboard diesels check their engine alignment and if they don't do the oil changes on their reverse gear talk with your mechanic to make sure the filter is installed correctly.
 
I've been following this discussion as the owner of a 16 25sc. I learned in an earlier post I probably installed my filter incorrectly when I did this service late last summer. I'm pretty confident it had never been done as I bought the boat with 105 hours. Not much was ever done. I'm going to pull my filter before launch and inspect. I was wondering if you could damage the transmission pulling the prop. I'm sure my prop had never been removed. Last winter I pulled it and had it scanned and tuned. It had some vibration and a few dings on the tips of the blades. I used a puller borrowed from the shop and some heat. I could not get it to come off. The shop advised a bigger hammer. I had to hit it pretty hard to get it free. I always wondered if you could damage the inside of the gear by hitting the prop. I did get about 100 trouble free hours last season, but that was always in the back of my mind. This does not look like a very robust reverse gear. After I had the prop tuned all vibration is gone. This thing is smooth. At idle its probably the smoothest running diesel I've seen. Its like my Caddy with the push button start, sometimes I forget its running. I don't think I have an alignment issue as smooth and vibration free as it is now. Next up for me is the fuel and air filters. I'm sure those have never been changed as well. Impeller has 200 hours on it as well. New one is on the shelf. I thought I bought this for pleasure. I like to do my own stuff when possible. This thing does require a lot of maintenance. Thanks for posting and good luck with the outcome.
 
Mr Ben,

Sorry I don't have any knowledge about hammering on the prop shaft and potential problems with the reverse gear.

I did not have any vibration even when the alignment was 1/2 inch out. I attribute that to the very short prop shaft. It is worth a check on your alignment just to be sure. Also another place to look for alignment issues is the cutlass bearing. If it has some play when you pull up, down or sideways on the prop, you may have a problem. I would suspect you are OK. I am not sure why my boat alignment was out. MY boat is a 2014, however the hull was made in 2013, the year Ranger Tug switched from Yanmar to Volvo Penta. I have no idea if RT needed to change the engine mounting for the change in engines, but i suspect they may have. My suspicion is based on the Volvo Penta engine may be taller, in order to get proper alignment we had to remove the engine cowling inorder to close the engine hatch.

With respect to your filter, with so little hours on the boat you are probably OK. Just Change the oil, install the filter correctly and take a sample of the oil to have it analyzed.

Good luck and happy new year, Dick
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

  • Tugnuts.com is the community hub for Ranger Tug, Cutwater, and Solara owners. Since its inception in 2008, the Tugnuts forum has grown into an active and thriving community of more than 9,000 members. It serves as both a meeting place for the best boating community online, and an invaluable archive of information.

  • User menu
Back
Top