Sand Heads/Burrard Inlet/Georgia Strait

D

DDean

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2024
Messages
112
Fluid Motion Model
C-28
Hull Identification Number
FMLT2716G
Vessel Name
SkipperJon
Question for those with knowledge of this area that spans between Vancouver, Sunshine Coast and Nanaimo.

We are new boaters with our R27 on the Fraser just south of Vancouver. We have been trying to find a good source for weather/wind, but more importantly swells for this area.

We have Windy, Waves, Navionics, Environment Canada...I feel that we are missing something because.....

Last weekend we left the Fraser and headed in the area of Sand Heads at a time when the forecasts and even current conditions suggested that it should be smooth out there. Ie, not appreciable wind (5-8knots) and when actual and forecasted wave heights were not significant (~1ft) for the area. When we left the Fraser we encountered swells well over 3 feet. We were the only boat out there - and Windy was still showing 1ft swells. We turned around and puttered around the Fraser for awhile and then gave it another go - nothing changed on the reported current conditions or the forecast but it was beautiful out there - and there were already many other boats out and about.

Im looking to better predict and understand what the conditions actually are when all the sources seems to be saying that its smooth, but it is definitely not. It seemed to me that everyone else that day knew not to go out when we first did as they appeared to be waiting for something.

We first departed the Fraser (when it was rough) while tide was ebbing about 2hrs before low slack and the second time (when it was nice) we went out just after low slack. Im wondering if in the Sand Heads area ebbing tide results in rough seas regardless of wind, potentially also not captured by swell forecasts in the area?

Anyone have different source of info for direction? Anyone with local knowledge have any tips? We depart North Arm Fraser.
 
D. Dean,
I was through there a couple years back and it was rougher than I expected as well.... Later in the day, friends just got beat up! - Way worse than me only a few hours earlier.

When I went, we were in a "Wind against current" situation..... and I knew it would be, but like you, I didn't think the wind would be enough to have and effect that dramatic.

That area has a lot of fetch, so - in my case - I think I didn't give that enough concern.

Perhaps you were caught in the same type of thing??

I hope that helps.

Rocky
 
Wind against current, along with local depth changes and/or a confluence of waters, can yield dramatic and surprising results. I don't have experience in the Fraser area to know, but have seen similar things around the San Juans, Gulf Islands, and Puget Sound -- for example, at either end of Admiralty Inlet (Port Townsend and/or near Edmonds, where I've run into choppy 4' waters when it was nearly calm a mile away.)

In addition to the notes about forecasts and wave heights, I'll add that forecasted wave heights in such models are not really based on any local data but are calculated in a very general way from fetch and wind speed across large areas. Which is to say that they are much less reliable than forecasts of other things like wind direction, and should be viewed very skeptically. And expect 2x max waves, occasionally more, as watson1987 notes.

I know that's not much help but may set expectations. I always try to get as much direct observation of waters as possible and especially watch out for current vs wind. And then remind myself to enjoy bumpy waters if I can 🙂
 
Many thanks all - each of those responses are helpful. I better understand the inputs into wave heights and how heights can differ from what is shown based solely upon typical model inputs, and also that factors beyond typical model inputs (such as current from a river and perhaps actual depth at low tide) might result in an even larger variance.

Ive asked around the Marina a bit and have been told "tides"; they're not a talkative bunch! Ebbing tides makes sense when you consider how shallow that area is - fewer than 10feet at low slack half a mile out from the mouth of the Fraser (which has a decent current). At high tide there is much deeper water to absorb the current than at low tide.

I guess when the wind (typically from the north west), even if its sub 10knots, hits the current from the river (from the south east) at ebbing tide in a shallow area, it leads to some chaos that is not captured by inputs into normal models. That might explain why the same current seemed to have little affect at higher tide under the same wind conditions.

Ill need to confirm if the primary variable is ebbing tide and then understand how large an area, and which waters, are impacted. Would be nice to not be a slave to these things.

Many thanks again.
 
As far as tools go, PredictWind has come out with PredictCurrent that asserts it has the wind against current forecasts for standing waves. For a brand new product I didn't want to pay the rather high fee until it has more reviews.
Would be great if someone else tried it out. ;-)
 
Frequently travel year-round from Salt Spring to Steveston via C26. Had a few surprises. Believe it or not this is now my protocol:
1. Check Windy (or PredictWind) in ECMWF mode: wind, wave height, fog forecast.
Switch to metric units, accept wave height predictions of 0.0 - 0.1 Meters.
At 0.2 meters predicted wave height at 49th parallel take the ferry. Actual wave heights are frequently >3 feet
At predicted wind speeds >10 knots likewise. Too hairy at Sand Heads esp. if NW wind, especially when combined with tug/barge/pilot wakes.
Northwesterlies - risk of serious standing waves at the entrance.
2. Confirm fog boundaries: best cams include:
NavCanada YVR https://www.metcam.navcanada.ca/dawc_images/wxcam/CYVR/CYVR_SW-full-e.jpeg
Massey Tunnel Hwy Cam Northbound https://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/pub/html/www/30.html
Saturna East Pt. north view https://www.metcam.navcanada.ca/lb/camera.jsp?lang=e&id=287
3. Glance at the tide charts for Georgina Point, Steveston, Porlier Pass as appropriate:
Georgina Pt https://tides.gc.ca/en/stations/07525
Steveston https://tides.gc.ca/en/stations/07607
Porlier Pass https://tides.gc.ca/en/stations/07437
4. Look at ACTUAL wave heights at nearest buoy stations:
Georgia Strait off Galiano: https://weather.gc.ca/marine/weathe..._e.html?mapID=02&siteID=14305&stationID=46303
English Bay: https://weather.gc.ca/marine/weathe..._e.html?mapID=02&siteID=14305&stationID=46304
5. When family aboard, time the trip for slack tides/currents (caution - correct times to PST/PDT)
Active Pass https://tides.gc.ca/tides/sites/tides/files/2023-11/2024_current_07527_public.pdf or
Porlier Pass https://tides.gc.ca/tides/sites/tides/files/2023-11/2024_current_07438_public.pdf
Sand Heads (tides only) https://tides.gc.ca/en/stations/07594
6. Caution - wakes. Seaspan, tugs & pilot boat in the Fraser, confused "echoes" from multiple ferry wakes off the rocks in Active Pass esp. rounding Mary Ann Pt.

/tmm
 
That is an amazing response Diatom! Thank you.

It raises some concern on the ability to actually use the boat often as predicted waves are bigger than than 0.1m almost every day and predicted wind of 10knots is also common. It seems that there is something in that area amplifies predicted conditions well beyond the models - and often!!! Your suggestion that if the model shows 0.2m it could actually be 1m is 100% aligned with our observations too.

Those links to the actual wave buoys are extremely helpful, and I had not found those prior. Thank you. We will use those all the time.

Re looking at tides, thats actually a focus right now because my best guess, acknowledging that my guesses are uneducated 😀 , is that if I pass through Sand Heads during flooding tide that that is likely to resolve much of the chaos, as long as the wind and swells otherwise are forecasted to be manageable. We will find out if this is a correct or not with experience.

Planning a short overnight trip into Howe Sound this weekend. Wind and weather looks fine. Planning our departure and return times to align with flood around Sand Heads. Ill look at the other data sources you highlight and see how it all comes together! I suppose every location has its cautionary elements; Sand Heads seems to have a few!
 
I think you will find that wind against the tide is the biggest factor. We transit Deception Pass often and there is a huge difference between a transit on an ebb vs on a flood if there is ANY wind at all against the current. I have been in 5-6 foot standing waves at the pass exit even when there was very little wind from the west. Fortunately Deception Pass is very short and if the wind is light the wave period is fairly long at the exit. Just yesterday afternoon the pass was ebbing (flowing east to west) with a 10kt wind blowing west to east. It was downright nasty!

I don’t have experience with rivers but I would expect the problem to be even worse and would plan to exit and enter only on a flood except in the calmest conditions.

Curt
 
Thought about DDean's "It raises some concern on the ability to actually use the boat often", a frustration during my 1st year too. I take comfort in assurances that the boat can take way more than I can - but it's a pleasure boat, not a bluewater boat; and I take no pleasure in a 2- hour crossing in a 1+ meter beam sea. There are thousands of hours of gentle inter-island cruising in protected waters at my doorstep. Agree on wind/current contests (pretty much "no wind - no problem", even at ebb tide - I don't mind taking a few waves on the bow. Fog remains a seasonal problem, leaves safety completely contingent on radar. Biggest issue: commuter runs where one gets possessed with the daft illusion that "I have to get there" - even BCFerries starts cancelling sailings in 18 knot winds.

I'm not especially motivated to get a bigger boat. I can't imagine that conditions that shake down my C26 would be fun in a C30/R31, and I love the dock-anywhere agility and single-hand simplicity of the C26.

/tmm
 
Update!

We had a wonderful night in Snug Cove on Bowen. It was windy when we left Sand Heads - 12 gusting 16 from the NW with actual waves at English Bay reported at 2ft about 2 hrs after low slack. Our first attempt leaving the Fraser lasted about 10min - 3 or 4 foot seas and the dog wasn’t doing great and I didn’t want 2hrs to Bowen in that. I know the boat can take it but the forecast was improving a bit a couple hours later. So we slowboated around the Fraser for awhile and it did indeed improve enough that our second go was successful. The return trip was amazing: light winds, 1ft seas and we had all the time to slowboat at 5knots, and we saw a pod of orcas on the way home too.

I’ve learned that Windy.com is good, Windy app not so much. The buoys at English Bay, Halibut Bank and near Galiano are very helpful, although they don’t tell the whole wave story. It was an experience mooring in a marina that I haven’t been able to preplan my approach (and amongst some huge boats). People staying in marinas are super friendly and everyone loves a boat dog it seems.

And as Diatom said so well, I think that we all know that the boats can take it - but it isn’t pleasant to be in 3ft+ seas. Our crossing (with the delivery captain) from Nanaimo to Richmond was in 20knots from the NW and 5/6foot seas. I’m very glad it was so rough as we know that the boat can take it. That said, I’m sure it’s not easy on the boat. Plus we learned that essentially every hatch and hull window was leaking on that first journey! It was trial by fire!!!!

And Jeeze Louise Snug Cove is charming to stay in a boat at!!!
 
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