Some Observations from Seattle Boat Show and Some Questions

[jingram]

After spending quite a bit of time at the Ranger exhibit at the Seattle Boat Show this past weekend, I came away very impressed. Jeff and Andrew were very personable and answered a lot of questions. The Ranger booth was PACKED with interest and after speaking with the guys, they sold A LOT of boats.

Clearly Ranger stands behind their product as has been evident from reading the boards over the past year. The only real concerns I had walking away from the show were livability for longer trips, say month+ in the Bahamas or Sea Of Cortez. I know a number of you have done extended trips. How well did this work out on the 25? No matter how you slice it, you are dealing with a rather limited amount of space. The 29 certainly was MUCH better in this aspect, but the cost put it out of consideration. So, I would love to hear from couples who have cruised together on say the 25+ for at least a couple of weeks and what you found worked and didn't work for you.

The second concern I had which was a much bigger concern I must confess, was that the glass layup of the hull seemed very thin, specifically towards the stern. I could literally walk down the boat and press against the hull and see it flex as I pushed in. As I went and looked at other comparable boats to the Ranger Tug... C-Dory, Camano 31, North Pacific 28, Nordic 26, Aspen Cat, and the Arrow Cat 30, none of them exhibited the same amount of hull flex as the Ranger Tug. In fact none of them experienced any flex at all. The hulls simply did not indent at all as I pressed against it suggesting much thicker glass layup. Have other owners noticed this? How much hull compression (squeaks, groans, etc.) do you experience in close, confused seas? This is a pretty big deal to me as it speaks of quality, but clearly there are so many happy owners out there. I would love to hear from owners if this is a concern or something they have noticed? Has Ranger decreased hull layup in order to keep weight down or to save cost or is this simply the way Rangers are?

Again, this is not meant to be a derogatory post at all, but rather just a guy seeking a bit more insight and information from current owners. Like I said, in many ways the Ranger seems ideal and my wife loved the classic salty lines. Besides the rather steep cost (even welded aluminum construction seemed to be of better value, at least at the show) the thin hull lay-up seemed to be the only concern I had vs. a ton of positives. So Nutters, straighten me out and let me know your thoughts.

 

[Jmangiameli]

My wife and I bought our R-25 last year and have done two 10+ day trips on her along with two, very large teenage boys and a guitar, which always seems to be attached to one of the very large teenage boys. We have a blast

Two years from now we plan on doing the Great Loop and Poco’s size is not an issue to us.

If you would like to talk more, drop me an email and we can exchange phone numbers.


Joe
Poco Allegro
joe@sfctaxservice.com

 

[baz]

The price difference between the R25 and the larger R29 appears to be the most significant issue for you. As you've already indicated the larger R29 is beyond what you want to spend let's look at what you're saving ... and BTW we chose our R25 based on price (i.e., what we felt we could afford) and considered the R29 too large for our needs as well as being out of reach cost-wise.

1. Assuming the R29 is some $80K more than R25 then at $2.5/gal for diesel that $80K buys you some 183,000 cruising miles in the R25. That is VERY significant in terms of time-on-the-water.

2. The R25 is quite likely to be rocked about more so than the R29 in 3 foot seas but less of a problem in more moderate sea conditions. Depending on what type of seas you're likely to be in this may not be a factor worth considering.

3. The R29 is larger inside (no doubt about that) than R25 but it's essentially same as R25 layout. Every thing about the R29 vs. R25 is that you get more of everything. However, the basic layout for both boats is the same and two people will adapt to either quite easily IMO.

4. I would expect the R25 to be less expensive to maintain than the R29.

5. We've had our R25 since mid last year and have admittedly not used it a great deal yet for extended cruises of more than 2 days at a time. We have two small Fox Terriers and my wife and I find the R25 much to our liking and do not feel it would be a bother if we were to cruise for one or two weeks all together on the boat. However, this aspect is such a personal one for each crew member. I'm sure some people feel enclosed or get cabin-fever more so than others. Just because others can find the R25 size/accommodation suitable for a month+ time that's no guarantee others would also. I think this is something you and wife have to figure out for yourselves. I also think deciding on responsibilities and sharing responsibilities needs discussing -- but again, I know of couples that simply wing it and get along just fine. I simply assume no two couples are the same. Does your wife really like boating? Does she initiate discussions on taking the boat out for trips or is it always you? Does wife like to navigate? Does wife like to take control of the boat? Does wife like to know about the technical details of the boat? Does wife like to plot out a cruise? Does you wife get sea sick? Does wife find the head/shower facilities AOK? Does wife find sleeping aboard is AOK? The answers to these questions would tell me if a person would genuinely like to spend time on a boat.

6. The hull flexing you mentioned has me puzzled. If you press hard enough on most fibre glass skins they will flex some unless they have a lot of 3D curvature. I have to say when motoring in our R25 the engine noise is such that any flexing noises simply aren't perceived/heard. No matter, I'm no expert and I think the best course to resolving this concern of yours is to talk with the Ranger Tug factory people and have them be accountable for what you see as a possible cost cutting exercise. Personally, I feel our R25 is pretty darn solid.

I think the biggest bonus for Ranger Tug owners is the fantastic support they get from the factory after the purchase. One would think that the attention you as you approach and reach the purchase point will fall away dramatically afterwards. This is simply not so. Jeff and Andrew and others will treat you just as they did during your run up to purchasing. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they treat you even better. It's almost like 'family'. This is invaluable in my book.

Sorry if I got a little off topic -- If you and wife are kindred spirits wrt to boating interests then spending a month+ in an R25 will be a breeze and should be of no concern -- my famous last words. 😉

 

[captd]

The Lucky Fin is our second Ranger. We love the Ranger for lots of reasons, but two main ones are towing and the other is live aboard. We use our boat in Mexico, Canada, and all over the USA. We have towed one in excess of 25,000 miles. They have more living space than our pickup camper. We quit hauling the camper and stay in the boat when traveling. It is just the right size for towing in those countries and in every state in the US with no permits. It is seaworthy enough to go to the Bahamas. This year ( right now ) we have been aboard for a month. We are in Fort Meyers , Florida. Heading for Key West, Up the East coast. Over to the Bahamas, back across Florida via the St Lucy canal. We will be living aboard for about 4 more months.

My thinking on the fiberglass is: they have learned over the last 40 years that you do not need as much glass as in my old 72 Chris Craft. It was built like a tank and the fuel burn reminded you of that all the time. A light bulb can survive the worst storm on earth, because of the design. The Ranger uses enough glass and the design reenforces the strength. All boats are designed with thicker glass on the keel and tapering up the gunnels. The deck on most all boats act as a lock with hull and super structure. Stringers and ribs stiffen the whole, like a light bulb. Partitions, corners and angles all reenforce. The Livingstons have done an excellent job designing their boats. I can get as much as 15 miles a gal idling along. According to the fuel monitor.

Lets face it, If you run into a dead head log with any boat you will probably put a hole the boat,( or a shipping container ) no matter the thickness. Maybe a ice breaker is the exception. The nice thing about fiberglass it is easy to repair. 😉

captd

 

[Levitation]

Everything in boats (planes, etc.) is tradeoffs... If you want to be able to tow across the country - say Chesapeake to Tenn Tom to Lake Powell to PNW - then the R25 is about the biggest you will want to tow on a regular basis... Yes, the 29 will tow, but it is a big load, gets you into wide load permits, etc... I bought my R25 in Virginia a few months back and towed it to Michigan and had to keep reminding myself it was back there or I tended to get a heavy foot... From that trip I know that towing it to all the places I want to see is going to be a pleasure...

The R29 has more room than the R25, is a bit more stable in chop being longer and heavier... But as was pointed out this costs you 80 grand... The R25 is a couples boat... The R29 will handle a small family - if they like being cozy... IF you want more room then you need to move to a bigger boat, which will not be pulled behind your truck... Everything is compromises...

On the fiberglass, I have not heard a single owner having issue with the integrity of the hull... I just went out to the shop and pushed/thumped on the hull and I do not perceive an issue...

 

[doke01]

We spend about 3 weeks of every summer cruising our R25 since 2007(we do a lot of shorter trips too). We also have a 5 year old that we bring with us 😉 We love the R25. There is more storage space then you realize and we found that we were actually over-packing the boat. My wife and I now have it down to a science. We tend to spend 1-2 days in marinas and then 1-2 days anchored out. More then 2-3 days anchored out can get a little difficult because you start to run out of things like water. We have always felt very comfortable and never cramped. Also, we have never heard any creaking or other noises related to the hull. In fact, this boat has one of the sturdiest hulls I have come across. We have been in some pretty rough weather, ran over a couple of logs and bumped a couple of things with no damage at all to the hull (other then a scuff maybe).

Doug K.
Nauti Dream

 

[Stella Maris]

I have not heard of anyone else putting a R-25 hard up on the rocks other than my wife and I in our "Solitude".

It was just another beautiful fall day out on Lake Mead. We were headed from the Overton Arm back to our launch point of Callville Bay. Maureen was sitting in the nav seat knitting, I was at the helm. We were motoring along at 6 knots in the center of the arm when all of a sudden.......... there was a horrible sound and the boat was lurching and bucking! I grab the throttle and got Solitude in neutral. In two seconds it went from a beautiful day to an "oh &#@#" day!

When we came to a stop we had gone 90% over the top of an underwater pinnacle. The bow was back in 90 feet of water, the stern on the rocks in six inches! I immediately threw my entire 140 pounds in the water and attempted to push this 6000# boat back into deep water....... fat chance at that. Maureen opened the engine cover to check for water, NONE!

She then got on the VHF and contacted the National Park Service. They informed her that they had no one available to come pull us off. It quickly became apparent that we were not getting off on our own. Since it was early November, we had only seen one boat all morning. The wind was starting to build, it was looking worse and worse. I grab the flare kit and fired off a couple of flares. Then we tried a couple of handheld flares. Then the smoke flares. Then the flares were all gone. I dug out those old illegal expired flares. You know the ones. These are the ones that the CG says you have to discard. Well, we started the process over again. On the last smoke flare with the wind getting stronger, we saw a boat racing our way!

The gentleman and his wife came in as close as possible. I tossed them a tow line, we crossed our fingers and they gave us a tug. With a horrible grinding sound, Solitude came off the rocks! Our next concern was once again, did we hole her? We checked the bildge. Again no water. Now for the second concern, did we damage the running gear? I put her in forward and all was well. We cast off the tow line, thanked the strangers who came to our rescue, offer them some cash for their troubles. They declined. They then told us that they had never been in this part of the lake, they did not know why they came to this area on this day, they just did!

The point of relaying this story is the strength and durability of the Ranger Tug. Solitude did have some major gouges and scratches on her bottom, but no holes! Many other boats would have faired much worse.

Ranger builds a great boat and stands behind it. If they did not, we certainly would not have purchased a R-29 two years later!

 

[commander bill]

My wife & I have spent 5 days onboard for about 4 trips and recently spent 2 weeks on ICW in florida (Oct 2009). Yea it is crowed & I would never do this with anyone younger than 20. But for the 2 of us and the cat it was OK. But for a boat that can be trailered there is no better option. Also, I do not consider the R29 as much of an option (due to width).

As most of us use the mid-cabin as storage it will hold a hugh amount of stuff in plastic tubs (get various sizes so you can push small tubs with infrequent needs all the way forward under dinette stand.

 

[CaptMac]

In 2007, Linda and I spent two months on board our R-25 for our first trip up the Inside Passage, along with our two Cavaliers (20# dogs). For the next two summers, we've spent at least 1 month on board - the Broughtons, etc. And this year we're leaving June 1st for 3 months back up to Alaska. We do have the full enclosure for the cockpit - a great place for the dogs to dry out a little before coming into the cabin.

Mac

 

[j&lgray]

We have had the Laurie Ann for 2 1/2 years, she has taken us over 3,500 miles and we have spent 90 days on her as we did the inland rivers from Iowa to Mobile Bay, Alabama. We trailer her and launch it a couple times a month and use it year round in Puget Sound. The Ranger 25 is a great two person boat if you really like the other person, keep everything in its place, and make maximum use of its capabilities. We also use the cockpit to eat many of our meals and use it extensively. We are so comfortable and accepting of our boat, that we are leaving in April for a 5 month trip on the East Coast and Great Lakes.

The boat is more sturdy than its crew. We turn around when the waves reach 4 feet, but the boat will take more.

Is it a compromise? Yes, but many things are.
Do we have any regrets in getting her? None.

 

[jingram]

Thank you to all who have responded to this thread. I appreciate ALL of your input about the R-25 and how it has met your cruising needs, what has and hasn't worked, how it has stood up to your trials and tribulations be they accidental groundings or rough seas, etc.

After thinking about it some more last night and at work today, I think I might have an answer to my hull flex/glass layup question. I decided to chase down my theory and do a bit of research online. If I remember correctly Ranger uses a solid glass hull up to the hull/deck joint and only uses coring in the deck and cabin housing itself. A number of the other boats I mentioned use solid glass below the waterline and are coring from the waterline up, typically with some kind of pvc foam core... airex, nidacore, etc. This may provid superior stiffness compared to a thinner layup of glass, but I for one would MUCH rather have a solid glass hull above AND below the waterline!

The reason it even came up at all was because of an older thread talking about heavy weather performance:

http://www.tugnuts.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=372&start=0.

I was surmising that lack of stiffness to the hull might have been the cause of the creaking and groaning heard by RAM in that thread and it was one of the reasons I was pressing on the hull at the boat show.

One thing I have come away with is that a great community supported by a great factory and dealer team is very hard to beat indeed!

Jack

 

[Levitation]

Jack, I started this post twice and erased it twice... Finished reading my email and came back to your topic for the third time now... I am still hesitant to post this but finally decided I will... This is not aimed at you personally and I hope you take it that way...

Each of us sees the world from our own ego centric view of the world (me especially) and each of us makes decisions in our own way... And let me note that I fell into owning an R25 completely by accident, random walk, or whatever theory you prefer - it was not by intent (gawd, I looked at, flew across the country to see, and considered, dozens of types of boats over a two and a half year period) and I am a realist about both the strong points and the short comings of this boat...

OK to the chase... I have to say that I feel you are fixating on an issue that is so minute as to be off the radar... The fact that the flat parts of the hull can be slightly flexed with fist pressure is meaningless... Hundreds of the boats have been built and in service... Other than someone who thought they heard something go bang in heavy weather (like an oil can banging around in the lazarette, or a half full holding tank slopping from side to side, maybe), there are no service reports of hull failures or even cracking... If the R25 is not your cup of tea that is fine and I would not urge you to buy a boat you do not feel good about, but I do urge you to do an analysis of why you don't want that model of boat (size, looks, speed, whatever) and not be <subconsciously> basing your decision on something that hundreds of owners have not found to be a problem in the real world...

cheers -

 

[wefings]

20 R 25s so far , we have never had a hull problem !
Marc

 

[jingram]

Marc, good to know... always great to hear from dealer's on this.

Denny-O, I thought I was very clear in my last post, but let me reiterate. I posted here not to belittle Ranger, their product, or any one of your (the owners) choices. I came here to ask your opinions as current owners of the product. I was/am looking for honest feedback, no more, no less. If you read my posts again, I never was at all derogatory about Ranger or the R-25. I'm a realist and the R-25 to be quite frank seems like the absolute best bang for my buck and is the closest I have seen to the vessel I am wanting to purchase. Did it seem a little tight, sure, but that is the reality of dealing with a vessel with only an 8'6" beam. Something that is inherent to any of the vessels in this range. I recognize that and certainly don't fault Ranger for that. It is the nature of the beast. Hence why I asked how well most folks have handled extensive cruising in these guys. Was it doable for them or did they want to kill their partner at the end of the trip. I realize, naturally, that all of this is highly subjective, but it doesn't mean that I don't find the input valuable. Furthermore, I recognize that people are going to be passionate about whatever boat they have purchased and have factored that in as well.

Now, as far as the glass layup is concerned. That isn't me trying to find a reason to dissuade myself from purchasing a Ranger or fixating on an issue! Heavy weather was something that had come up in previous posts and it was something that I noticed at the show. I felt it was a valid question to ask owners. If you feel that it is me fixating on an issue that is so minute as to be off the radar, well, that is your opinion. I'm aware of the number of vessels that have been built. I asked. I was told about 240 R-25s have been sold since 2006, 40 R-29s have been sold since last its debut last year and at the show this year they had sold 15 of the new R-25SC models and had pretty much filled up production of the R-25 and R-29 line for the rest of the year. That, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with hull strength. Just because "X" many boats have been produced doesn't say anything about their use. Now, David's example of grounding his Ranger 25' at speed and being yanked off the rocks without holing the boat… that speaks volumes and were the types of answers I was looking for!! I know there have been no issues of hull failures or cracking. If there were, they certainly would have been on the forums. I wasn’t suggesting the hulls were weak in any way, rather, it was just something I took note of after reading things on these forums and something I noticed at the boat show that was a little disconcerting, which is WHY I asked here. Who else would be best to respond than those who currently own Ranger Tugs?

I certainly recognize my own lack of objectivity in all of this. I worked for a couple of years on a commercial fishing boat in Alaska during college and have spent a lot of time on steel and aluminum boats. Most glass boats have always been older and built during that period when petroleum products were cheap and glass boats were built thick and HEAVY, which again, isn’t necessarily a good thing! That being said, when you close a door on a car, most people like a solid reassuring thud. That has nothing to do with the thickness of the door panel, rather the steel impact beam in the door. The same is true for half of the electronics people pack around. There are LOTS of examples of manufacturers putting steel plates in product to do nothing but bequeath heft to that product in order to give it that air of “quality”. I know this stuff, I recognize it, but it still gets me. Who doesn’t like a “solid” product?

As it is, I think I ended up answering my own question last night and posted to that effect.

Hopefully I haven’t ruffled too many feathers with this thread, lol! That certainly was never my intention at all. Denny, I didn’t take it personally and hope you didn’t take my response personally either. The great part about forums like these is the honest and open discourse.

Jack

 

[baz]

In 2007, Linda and I spent two months on board our R-25 for our first trip up the Inside Passage, along with our two Cavaliers (20# dogs). For the next two summers, we've spent at least 1 month on board - the Broughtons, etc. And this year we're leaving June 1st for 3 months back up to Alaska. We do have the full enclosure for the cockpit - a great place for the dogs to dry out a little before coming into the cabin.

Mac

Mac: You should write a Guide to "Back up to Alaska" detailing your cruising plans and the course you navigated. I'm sure many of us would enjoy knowing how you faired and it just may give some of us the inspiration do do like-wise -- even if it were to be just a portion of what you end up doing. I know I would read your exploits with great interest. Providing others with a personal experience (be they +ive or -ive) of such a trip has to be informative and would lay down the basis for planning such an event.

Thanks....

 

[rt11002003]

Hopefully, a brief comment on flexing. 🙂 Objects that don't flex break easily, such as window glass. Good boat (and other) engineering allows for the correct amount of flex and good production builds it in. The fiberglass brings strength and flexibility; the resin (plastic) brings strength and form, if prepared (and cured) properly the plastic will flex without breaking (within limits).

Buildings sway (flex), try the Sears Building and the Empire State Building, as do bridges such as the Golden Gate Bridge and look at the wings on your next aircraft flight.

I've seen sailboat hulls that would buckle (oil can) when on the hard and regain form in the water without any damage or loss of structural strength.

I wish I could determine just how much flex is enough. I could probably sell my services. Until then I'll just depend on the reputation of the builders.

Gene

 

[JamesTXSD]

I can't speak directly about the hull of the R-25, other than to say each one I've seen close up and personal seems to be very well built, nice fit and finish. Years ago we had a sailboat that was lightly built and you could force some flex in the hull... in the long horizontal portion. Never an issue. Not one report of any hull failure in the several thousand built.

Now, regarding the space... again, I don't have a Ranger; we own a C-Dory 25. The layouts are similar, but the Ranger seems to make more space out of similar square footage. We have spent up to 5 months on our boat. Yes, that's 5 months, every single night. On a 25 foot boat. Never felt the urge to smother each other in the middle of the night. BUT, that has less to do with the boat than the people involved. You can ask others, but there are some couples that shouldn't be in the same zip code without lots of time apart. We get this question frequently, and I think I've come up with a real world solution on how to know if you two can do this, without the expense of buying the boat first.

Go to the smallest room in your house. Set up a card table and two chairs. One more chair. Borrow a porta-potty and a dorm size refrigerator. Put a mattress in the corner and stack stuff on two corners to form a V. If this small room happens to be the bathroom, turn the shower on for ambiance. If the wind is really howling, one of you gets to stay awake on "anchor watch". Bring in all the comforts of home: a laptop computer (without your DSL), a 7" TV (no cable), and a battery lantern. See how long you can eat, sleep, poop, sponge bathe, talk, sing, play card games, fool around, write, look out the window, etc, etc without wanting to kill each other.

OK, it's easier or harder on a boat, depending on the weather. And keep in mind that we do this with a cat, who incidentally gets the biggest storage locker on the boat for her needs. If you need something from the store, you walk. If you decide to treat yourself to lunch out, you walk. Weather radio becomes way more interesting to you than CNN. You go to bed when it gets dark and get up when it gets light. The stars are brighter. The colors of the sunrise are more vivid than you've seen before. You meet some interesting people... some who "get it" and lots who look at you with horror or pity in their eyes.

If the two of you happen to be people who "get it," it will be an adventure. If you find that you rub each other the wrong way in a short period of time, it will be a VERY expensive ordeal. BUT, it will really not be that much about the boat.

Over the years, we've traveled together by car, van, 2 seat sports car, motorcycles, a bunch of motorhomes, airplanes (yes, we've camped under the wing), and boats. We worked together. Yeah, we're pretty much around each other 24/7; have been since we met in high school. Over the years, we've seen couples break up over too much closeness... or perhaps the RV or boat simply focused the problems they already had. For some people, the reality doesn't match "the dream."

So, I think it's helpful to ask others about their traveling on a small boat, but understand that those who enjoy it will paint a pretty idyllic picture... because it works for us. It certainly isn't for everyone. And only you two can figure out if it is for you. One thing I have come to believe, though: if you have to ask if people can do this without the urge to kill, that may be a telling sign. 😉

Having said all that, I occasionally get the urge for a bigger boat. The Blonde tells me I can do that "with your next wife." :mrgreen: We like this size boat. It's relatively easy to trailer, with the right tow vehicle, and that opens up SO MANY MORE cruising opportunities. The boat is small enough that we can move it around by hand at the dock or ramp. Either of us can do any job on the boat, but we generally fall into the "I run the helm, you navigate" that most couples do. Most of our trips are a month or two on the boat, but that depends more on the area we're exploring and the weather (I am a cold weather wuss). In between, we spend some time around home (and day trip with the boat) or head out with our RV.

Hope that gives you some insight. From this outsider's perspective, the Ranger is a fine boat and the company is involved with and supports their customers. No boat is perfect for every use, but boats like the Ranger and the C-Dory are surprisingly versatile.

Good luck with your search.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

 

[bbrh842]

Jim B.

Everything you say is right on.
Well done.

Mike H.

 

[wefings]

Jim , you forgot the part about standing in a cold shower tearing up 20 dollar bills .
Oh wait, thats sailing ............
Nicely written .
Marc